My beef with Teflon Tom

[wwovince]

Like i said if you were to read the whole post. I agree with the bad idea of hiring him. Read the whole post!

[Sound_n_Fury]

A. Sign Keydrick Vincent of the Steelers as our starting LG.

B. Sign Fred Miller of the Titans as our starting RT.

C. Sign Rich Braham of the Bengals as our starting C.

 

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There's no way you can sign these three guys (especially the two veterans) with only $5 million in cap room.

 

Miller's cap number with the Titans was $9.3 million, so even if you got him for one-third that amount, you're starting to bump up against your limit. Braham made $1.2 million last year, but he's 34 and coming off a knee injury.

 

Vincent is intriguing and could be a good value pickup (he only made $628,000 in 2004). BYW, he was orinally signed as an undrafted FA.

 

I don't understand the groundswell to dump TT. I thought he had a very good year in 2004 and his cap number doesn't seem that outrageous give the FA signings of the past few days.

[Mickey]

I guess it's all how you look at it. Some people have a bad taste in their mouth because he did a few things right out of the gate:

 

1. Purged popular players to fix the cap.

2. Got rid of the little prick flutie.

3. Decided to keep Rob "China" Johnson.

 

Overall, I think your issues with TD are valid, however, there's a few I disagree with. You've got to evaluate someone in the context of what they were trying to do.

 

>1. Hiring Gregg Williams.

 

I don't have a beef with hiring him. I have a beef with not firing him earlier.

 

2. 2002 draft, day 1.

 

Give me a break. Mike Williams played well last year. Coy Wire is an amazing special teams player. You can't hit on everything, and if you'd care to look at TD's draft record overall you might have a different opinion. But my issue with this, and your criticisim, is that you pick out tidbits instead of absorbing an entire tenure.

 

3. Not outright releasing Drew Bledsoe after the 2003 season.

 

Right. And pick up who? What would have been the plan?

 

4. Not making the playoffs in 2003 or 2004.

 

I guess TD shares part of the blame for this, but so does the rest of the team. And do you think if we released Bledsoe, we would have even been in position to get to the playoffs? Look at the big picture of what you are pissed about, and you'll see that if you create scenarios with what you coulda woulda shoulda done, we probably wouldn't have been in position to be in the playoffs, anyway. Think about it.

 

5. Not respecting the kicker position in football.

 

Agreed. I hate lindell. However the Moorman pickup was outright brilliant. Look at the big picture.

 

6. Overpaying for guys at certain positions - Troy Vincent at FS, Teague at C, MW at RT, Villarial at RG, Prioleau and Wire at backup SS, etc...

 

Whatever. I don't think Teague, Vincent, Villarial OR Williams are overpaid. Sorry, but criticism of what Williams is getting paid shows a complete lack of understanding regarding how draft signings work. Think about it. You are slotted in salary AND bonus at #4 and you can't do a damn thing about it. Your criticizm is starting to get a little unwarranted to say the least.

 

7. Building a team with the stars focused at the LB and offensive "skill" positions rather than upfront on the OL and DL.

 

Really? So signing Sam Adams and drafting / resigning Schoebel is ignoring the DL? Really? I find that facts disagree with your perception of reality. Drafting an OL in the first round ignores the line? Hiring McNally ignores the line? Give me a break, man. Additionally, I don't think you can critisize a defense ranked top 5 in the NFL for two years running.

 

8. Already being at the salary cap limit for 2005, only 2 years following the period where we were unofficially out of "salary cap jail."

 

Um, there's a difference between being under the cap and over. You lack of understanding regarding contracts and cap is getting funny. Do you remember that when Donahoe got here we were over the cap by like 20 million and only had 40 player counting toward that number? We couldn't even field a friggin team! Dude, get a clue. We have room to sign anyone worthwhile that we want. Cut Wire, and there's our space. We can do whatever we please when it comes to signing players, because we can field a full roster and we're still under the cap.

 

Of course Steven in MD agrees with you. He's still pissed about the salary cap purge. He thinks that having 40 players signed and you're still over the cap is a workable situation. If this is the type of "knowledge" you have agreeing with you, you might want to check the "facts" you are basing your opinions on.

 

TD isn't perfect, and I don't like being out of the playoffs, but he's done some great things while he's here that far outweigh any misses he's had.

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I'm not sure what "great things" your are talking about, ticket prices maybe? His job is to produce a winning team, he hasn't. What he has so far achieved is mediocrity. Not good enough for me. He needs to do better or update his resume. No more excuses. I'm not interested in the statistical rank of our defense, I want wins.

[todd]

I'm not sure what "great things" your are talking about, ticket prices maybe?  His job is to produce a winning team, he hasn't.  What he has so far achieved is mediocrity.  Not good enough for me.  He needs to do better or update his resume.  No more excuses.  I'm not interested in the statistical rank of our defense, I want wins.

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Gee, and I don't. Why don't you outline who you think is a better GM in the NFL over the past 4 years, why, and specify specific moves and general philosophy. I want details. I bet you can't come up with 4.

[mead107]

Gee, and I don't. Why don't you outline who you think is a better GM in the NFL over the past 4 years, why, and specify specific moves and general philosophy. I want details. I bet you can't come up with 4.

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now that is hard talk .

[Bill from NYC]

...I just have to get it off of my chest. Bear with me, please:

 

1. Hiring Gregg Williams.

2. 2002 draft, day 1.

3. Not outright releasing Drew Bledsoe after the 2003 season.

4. Not making the playoffs in 2003 or 2004.

5. Not respecting the kicker position in football.

6. Overpaying for guys at certain positions - Troy Vincent at FS, Teague at C, MW at RT, Villarial at RG, Prioleau and Wire at backup SS, etc...

7. Building a team with the stars focused at the LB and offensive "skill" positions rather than upfront on the OL and DL.

8. Already being at the salary cap limit for 2005, only 2 years following the period where we were unofficially out of "salary cap jail."

 

To be fair, there is a lot of good that TD has brought to the Bills. I'm not going to bother with that whole list - since this is meant to be a TD-bashing thread - but most notably I'm happy with his past 2 drafts and with his outstanding job in marketing the Bills in such an economically depressed area.

 

But back to the negatives, I guess I'm just not at all happy with the way this offseason is going - no, not because we didn't resign JJ and PW (I fully understand and agree with those decisions) - but because we don't have any money to address the OL like I thought it was going to finally be in 2005 after 10+ years of subpar Bills play at this position...

 

As of now, this is (probably) our starting front 5:

 

LT: Teague

LG: Gandy

C: Tucker

RG: Villarial

RT: Williams

 

WTF??? The whole left side is atrocious, from Teague on over to Tucker. Certainly not adequate for a team wanting to play "smash-mouth" football and to block for a rookie QB. Unless there is somehow more free agent improvement along the front lines of our offense, you can look to a lot more league-leading zero-to-negative yard carries for Willis in 2005.

 

I can already see the replies - if any - that may follow:

 

1. Kelso, you're an idiot.

2. Kelso, you think you're smarter than TD and McNally?

3. Kelso, why is your helmet so !@#$ing huge?

4. Kelso, have some patience. The offseason is still young.

 

But before sending such replies, ask yourself this:

 

If you're so sure that TD knows what's best for our team, then why haven't we made the playoffs since he got here? And why did other teams like the Eagles, Vikings, Chargers, and Jets make the playoffs in 2004 with a fraction of our payroll?

 

So isn't it possible that TD is not making the best decisions for our Bills, with respect to the other 31 GM's in the league that could have been doing a better job in the past 4 years for Mr. Wilson?

 

Just some thoughts from an idiot fan,

 

-KH

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KH, I am not going to address the entire post. Some of it I agree with, some I don't, but he did NOT overpay for Villarial!!!!!

CV played his ass off and imo played a HUGE role in the improvement of Big Mike. As a matter of fact, when CV got hurt, Big Mike looked rather pedestrian. CV is EXACTLY the RG that the Buffalo Bills football team needed. All of our RGs have literally sucked since Davis.

JP is an unproven commodity. CV will help him in every way. He will make MW a better player. He will make MaGahee run better. He will buy him time to throw. He will help him roll out. He will pick up stunts.

I think that you truly underestimate this player, no?

[ajzepp]

KH, I am not going to address the entire post. Some of it I agree with, some I don't, but he did NOT overpay for Villarial!!!!!

CV played his ass off and imo played a HUGE role in the improvement of Big Mike. As a matter of fact, when CV got hurt, Big Mike looked rather pedestrian. CV is EXACTLY the RG that the Buffalo Bills football team needed. All of our RGs have literally sucked since Davis.

JP is an unproven commodity. CV will help him in every way. He will make MW a better player. He will make MaGahee run better. He will buy him time to throw. He will help him roll out. He will pick up stunts.

I think that you truly underestimate this player, no?

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Nice one, Bill Couldn't agree more with what you said.

[Toledo Bill]

I give TD 2 more seasons to make the playoffs (which is very generous). If he can't do it, I want him out of here unconditionally.

 

Can we all agree on that? Or do we have to make more excuses as to why this franchise has become the Bengals of the 21st century?

 

Many think the worst thing about TSW is the ignorance and impatience of the "new-age" posters. In my opinion, it's the !@#$ing complacency of the older fan base. Too bad the least complacent around here tend to get banned, because right about now this board could use some more frozen water and some more hard drinks...

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Whoa!!!! The complacency of the older fan base?? I have been going to Bills games sice the mid-sixties and I can assure you... no complacency here! Us older fans have gone through periods you would not even dream of. The Harvey Johnson, Kay Stephenson, Hank Bullough, etc. years. If anything, it is the "fans" who started following the Bills due to their Super Bowl run who should be "brought to task"... not the fans who suffered through years of being the worst team in the NFL.

 

I actually agree with several points from your initial post, but your "complacent older fan base" comment is way off. No one, I repeat no one, wants or deserves a Buffalo Bills Super Bowl champion more than the "older" fans!

[rastabillz]

Amen!!!

[Bill from NYC]

Nice one, Bill   Couldn't agree more with what you said.

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Why thank you!

CV is probably THE most under rated player on the Buffalo Bills football team.

He is tough, smart and mean. It is easy to focus on the ball and say "MaGahee is great!" Hey, he is, but were it not for tough guys up front, the best of the "skill players" would be rendered useless.

If the Bills could sign or draft the CV equivalent at LG, a player such as Teague would have a MUCH easier time at LT. This is what I have always wanted for our Buffalo Bills. We are a cold weather franchise. We need huge, mean, angry men who can block others and control the football. This is the way for the Bills to win football games.

Looking back, the Bills had a GREAT defense in the past. We had Speilman, Paup, Big Ted, Cowart, Hansen, and of course, Bruce. The team however was weighted down by the likes of Loucheiy, Ostroski, Farris, Panos, Spriggs, Fina, and every other loser playing OL.

Imo, CV is a LEAP in the right direction of making the Buffalo Bills a team of tough guys on the offensive side.

TD should receive nothing but praise for this signing.

[Max Fischer]

So glad you asked, Max! Here's what I 'd do. Given the current cap constraints - about 5 million under? - I would:

 

A. Sign Keydrick Vincent of the Steelers as our starting LG.

B. Sign Fred Miller of the Titans as our starting RT.

C. Sign Rich Braham of the Bengals as our starting C.

D. Move MW to LT, leave Villarial at RG, and keep Tucker, Gandy, McFarland, and Sobieski as our standard #6-#9 OL backups.

E. Cut Teague and Prioleau.

F. Trade Henry for some draft picks, probably during the day of the draft since that is when we'd find optimal trade value.

G. Sign a backup RB if Henry gets shipped off to wherever. Anthony Thomas of the Bears would be ideal, but I'm not sure how expensive he'll end up being.

 

That's pretty much all I'd do until June 1. By the early summer and mini-camp season, we'll have a better idea as to what our TE health status is, as well as how capable the Losman-Reed or Losman-Aiken connection may be. I like Edwards, Kelsay, and McGee as our starters on D, and I think LB and CB depth can be addressed strictly through the draft.

 

And as for kicker, I'm going to get even more sh-- for this I know, but I'd stick with Lindell. The reason being that I'm not sure there are any better F.A. kickers out there who could do better in their first year dealing with the RWS winds. Of course, 1-2 UDFA kicker prospects in pre-season is expected, and maybe we'll strike gold and one of them can unseat Lindell.

 

By the way, I do agree with the rest of you that Holcomb to replace Drew/Shane and Gandy to replace Price were both excellent pickups. However, more needs to be done...

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1. What contract do you think these guys will sign? What will it take? Total base salary and bonuses. Bills don't sign players in a vacuum.

2. How does the money work out with your two cuts?

3. Why would all these guys sign with the Bills?

4. What team will take Henry off our hands? What is good trade value? What if no one takes your demands? What then?

5. Do you wait until you trade Henry? If so, who will still be available? What will it cost?

6. So I assume you DON'T know the health status of our TEs (or any player for that matter).

7. Is there really great LB and CB depth in the draft?

8. Sounds like you're rolling the dice on Lindell. Not that I disagree but I'm sure you'll find a reason to second guess TD.

9. Yes, more needs to be done, but you'd think the first regular season game was next week.

 

To sum up: you're plan looks a bit shaky. To many things totally out of the Bills control. Where are your backup plans? Unfortunately your plan has a domino effect, if one piece doesn't work the rest probably can't happen. What if there are 4 other teams that will "overpay" for one or more of the players you site? Fact is, you don't, but I'm certain TD and the Bills management does.

[Typical TBD Guy]

Toledo Bill: Well clearly not ALL of the older fan base has become complacent. But I'm talking about many of those in here who keep reminding the younger crowd that compared to the earlier days, TD is the Messiah. OK, yes, I suppose I can't argue with that. But justifying TD's regime by saying it's better than "Terry Bledsoe awful" is still a poor reason to support TD in my opinion. By the way, you'll have to excuse me for only being a Bills fan since the Super Bowl days. Too bad my parents didn't have sex around the time yours did.

 

Bill from NYC: Chris Villarial, while an excellent player, is still overpaid for his duties. He's a run blocking specialist at RG, and RG's like that normally shouldn't make the type of money he's making. That was my point, and it was even made by a couple of ESPN talking heads (Lenny P and someone else, if this somehow "validates" my position ) around the time CV was signed that the Bills overpaid at guard. Having said that, I still want CV - as well as Vincent and Mike Williams - on the team even though I wish their contracts were closer to market value for their position and/or age group.

 

todd: In the AFC alone, I would immediately choose the GM's of the Pats, Jets, Steelers, and Colts (good old Polian!) over TD. Each makes the playoffs fairly consistently, and the 3 non-Patsies on my list routinely bring their A game against the upper tier competition of the NFL that's not based in NE. I might also add the GM's of the Jags and Ravens to that list, especially by the end of this upcoming season. The Chargers I'm reluctant to add because I would have easily said their organization was poorly run up until their 2004 miracle season... but anyway, how about you? Are you comfortable in naming for me 27 GM's around the league that have performed worse than TD?

 

Sound n' Fury: OK, I'd be content with keeping Teague at C and forgetting my Rich Braham dreams. But as for Vincent and Miller, TD could easily fit both under a $5 million cap if he wanted - especially factoring in the savings from a Prioleau cut and a Henry trade. I don't expect Miller to command more than $3 million base salary, and TD could probably fit him in for less...maybe $2.25 million tops for the 2005 payroll.

 

Max Fischer: Your lesson for me - don't criticize a pro football GM on an internet message board if you're not one yourself. Duly noted. I would have enjoyed offering my offseason backup plans to you in detail, but because these plans never received TD's prior stamp of approval, they're probably not worth your time reading. But in the meantime, I'll try to raise the quality of my posts up to the level of the 9 gems you've squeezed out since December 30. That would undoubtedly improve the quality of football debate here.

[Max Fischer]

Max Fischer: Your lesson for me - don't criticize a pro football GM on an internet message board if you're not one yourself. Duly noted. I would have enjoyed offering my offseason backup plans to you in detail, but because these plans never received TD's prior stamp of approval, they're probably not worth your time reading. But in the meantime, I'll try to raise the quality of my posts up to the level of the 9 gems you've squeezed out since December 30. That would undoubtedly improve the quality of football debate here.

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In other words, it's easy to be an armchair-Madden GM then have to deal in the real world. I've still yet to see a list of players over the last few seasons TD/Bills SHOULD have signed and/or kept AND at what price.

 

Again: Name ONE bad signing and who the alternative would have been; AND name one Bill you would have kept and at what price.

 

Like everything in life, it's easy when it's in a fantasy world.

 

I would have LIKED to have had a better kicker: but who did TD miss?

 

I would have LIKED to have had a better LG but I can't think of one TD/Bills could have signed/traded/drafted but failed.

 

I would have LIKED a better QB last year -- but WHO? How would it have happened?

 

What if we DID NOT have Bledsoe? Would we have Law, Spikes, Vincent, Adams, Moulds, Losman or McGahee?

 

Remember: EVERY move has a domino effect. There is a consequence for every action. If you signed one player it doesn't mean someone we LIKE would have been available to sign/trade/draft. Example: we SHOULD have picked so-and-so in the draft and picked the higher draftee in the "next round." Huh? What makes you think they still would have been there; there are 31 other teams with similar draft lists -- it's a totally unpredictable domino effect.

 

Another: if we had made that field goal in the second quarter we would not have lost 17-16. Huh? In fact, the WHOLE game would have changed if you made the FG: time/moments/decisions don't live in a vaccum. May have got blown out if that happened.

[obie_wan]

There's no way you can sign these three guys (especially the two veterans) with only $5 million in cap room.

 

Miller's cap number with the Titans was $9.3 million, so even if you got him for one-third that amount, you're starting to bump up against your limit. Braham made $1.2 million last year, but he's 34 and coming off a knee injury.

 

Vincent is intriguing and could be a good value pickup (he only made $628,000 in 2004). BYW, he was orinally signed as an undrafted FA.

 

I don't understand the groundswell to dump TT. I thought he had a very good year in 2004 and his cap number doesn't seem that outrageous give the FA signings of the past few days.

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[/

cutting Teageue is downright stupid.

 

He has performed well at C, even though he has been saddled with a black hole at LG.

 

Not to mention, his ability to play LT is what is allowing TD flexibility in finding JJ's relacement.

[obie_wan]

I would have LIKED a better QB last year -- but WHO?  How would it have happened?

 

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Brian Griese should have been signed last year and then Drew should have been forced to take a paycut before the season started - ala Lawyer Milloy.

[Max Fischer]

Brian Griese should have been signed last year and then Drew should have been forced to take a paycut before the season started - ala Lawyer Milloy.

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What does SHOULD have mean? How much? Up to last summer, what in Griese's career makes you think he would have pressured Drew to take a paycut? Would Drew or any other Bills fan would have thought that it was possible Griese would take over as starter? Yes, in hindsight BG played well but I don't recall any push for him as our possible savior last summer. How was LM forced to take a paycut?

[Mickey]

Gee, and I don't. Why don't you outline who you think is a better GM in the NFL over the past 4 years, why, and specify specific moves and general philosophy. I want details. I bet you can't come up with 4.

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You want details? Gregg Williams: so good he was fired. Ryan Denney: so good we had to take another RDE the very next draft. Travis Henry: so good we had to spend a 1st rounder to replace him with Willis. Reed: So good we had to spend a first rounder on Evans. Teague: so good he was taken in the 7th round and dumped by Denver who knows a bit about offensive lineman. Tucker: so good Parcells cut him but what does he know about offensive lines and power running football. Drew: so good we had to use a first rounder to get him and another one to replace him. Mike Williams: showed up in camp out of shape and an emotional basket case. Let Hollis go but sticks with Lindel through thick and thin.

 

I could go on. The bottom line is wins and you can make all the excuses for him you want but at some point you have to hold him responsible for results. He gets the same cut of the TV revenue and the same number of draft picks as every other team in the league does. Sorry but I don't think it is unreasonable to expect results in his 5th year. That is longer than most GMs and/or head coaches get.

[Mickey]

KH, I am not going to address the entire post. Some of it I agree with, some I don't, but he did NOT overpay for Villarial!!!!!

CV played his ass off and imo played a HUGE role in the improvement of Big Mike. As a matter of fact, when CV got hurt, Big Mike looked rather pedestrian. CV is EXACTLY the RG that the Buffalo Bills football team needed. All of our RGs have literally sucked since Davis.

JP is an unproven commodity. CV will help him in every way. He will make MW a better player. He will make MaGahee run better. He will buy him time to throw. He will help him roll out. He will pick up stunts.

I think that you truly underestimate this player, no?

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I think the biggest factor in MW playing better the second half of the season was the patsy schedule we played over the last 8 games or so. I am still clinging to the hope that MW will be a player and have defended him here on more than one occasion but even I have to admit that the ship of mediocrity may have already sailed on this one.

[MRW]

I could go on.  The bottom line is wins and you can make all the excuses for him you want but at some point you have to hold him responsible for results.  He gets the same cut of the TV revenue and the same number of draft picks as every other team in the league does.  Sorry but I don't think it is unreasonable to expect results in his 5th year.  That is longer than most GMs and/or head coaches get.

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I can't really agree with this. Yes, wins are the bottom line, but unless you can look back at the decisions that were made and say they were bad decisions based on the information available at the time, I think it would be short-sighted to change for the sake of change. Then you have a new guy bringing in his new plan and you add another few years.

 

Of course, the reality is it really doesn't matter what we think, I don't think RW will be content with two more years out of the playoffs and TD would be gone under that scenario.

[todd]

Nice try. You didn't answer my questions. Basically, who is a better GM over the past 4 years. Give details, incl specific moves, and overall general philosophy. You didn't do that. You just bitched a bit more, which is useless. You can B word all you want, but only morons complain without attempting to balance bad moves with good. I haven't seen you try that.

 

So read my post again, and at least attempt to name me 4 GMs who have done a better job. I expect details of specific moves, and general philosophy. If you can't do that, explain why you can't, or else every argument you lay out makes you look like an idiot.

 

 

You want details?  Gregg Williams: so good he was fired.  Ryan Denney: so good we had to take another RDE the very next draft.  Travis Henry:  so good we had to spend a 1st rounder to replace him with Willis.  Reed: So good we had to spend a first rounder on Evans.  Teague: so good he was taken in the 7th round and dumped by Denver who knows a bit about offensive lineman.  Tucker: so good Parcells cut him but what does he know about offensive lines and power running football.  Drew: so good we had to use a first rounder to get him and another one to replace him.  Mike Williams:  showed up in camp out of shape and an emotional basket case.  Let Hollis go but sticks with Lindel through thick and thin.   

 

I could go on.  The bottom line is wins and you can make all the excuses for him you want but at some point you have to hold him responsible for results.  He gets the same cut of the TV revenue and the same number of draft picks as every other team in the league does.  Sorry but I don't think it is unreasonable to expect results in his 5th year.  That is longer than most GMs and/or head coaches get.

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