obie_wan Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 According to Losman, there was competition for the QB job in practice and the pre-season last year before he got hurt. The amount they would have had to pay Griese over the league minimum they paid Shane Matthews would likely have offset the extra money paid to Drew. Not to mention that you really can't have two vets fighting over the starting job AND try to groom your #1 pick QB to get ready to play. I just don't see that as an alternative. 265210[/snapback] The point is that you would not have paid Drew $8.75 mil in 2004. A capable alternative would have given TD leverage to reduce Drew's bloated pay into the $3.5 mil range - which is more in line with his actual production. Not many teams would have been able to free up big money just before the season to bring in a brand new QB - so chances are Drew would have been forced to take the reduction or be cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark VI Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Nah, that Palmer guy seems more like a man's man than Joe does... 265249[/snapback] LOL ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 The point is that you would not have paid Drew $8.75 mil in 2004. A capable alternative would have given TD leverage to reduce Drew's bloated pay into the $3.5 mil range - which is more in line with his actual production. Not many teams would have been able to free up big money just before the season to bring in a brand new QB - so chances are Drew would have been forced to take the reduction or be cut. 265301[/snapback] Well if that happened, we would have had some extra money at the beginning of last year, and no one to pay it to, and even with the Drew bashers TBD would have imploded for good as we had Brian Greise as our QB with a rookie who promply went down with injury. Griese, as you recall, was wanted by no one after Miami. You cannot just necessarily assume he would have had the production he did at Tampa bay, especially with the way the coaches and offense and OL and backs and receivers struggled early on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Nah, that Palmer guy seems more like a man's man than Joe does... 265249[/snapback] Hey Gavin.... What did the five fingers say to the face? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Nice try. You didn't answer my questions. Basically, who is a better GM over the past 4 years. Give details, incl specific moves, and overall general philosophy. You didn't do that. You just bitched a bit more, which is useless. You can B word all you want, but only morons complain without attempting to balance bad moves with good. I haven't seen you try that. So read my post again, and at least attempt to name me 4 GMs who have done a better job. I expect details of specific moves, and general philosophy. If you can't do that, explain why you can't, or else every argument you lay out makes you look like an idiot. 265188[/snapback] You know Todd, it would have been nice to have a discussion where perhaps in the end we agree to disagree and not had to interject personal inuslts like calling people morons becuase they disagree with you. From your response, obviously, that isn't going to happen. Just one more adult male on the TBD acting like a 12 year old in a locker room rank fight because lord knows, that is just what this place needs more of. I'm sorry, I didn't know that in order to have an opinion on whether TD has done a good job or not I have to conduct an indepth analysis of every move by every GM on every team over the last 4 years including not just what they did but the alternatives they passed up rather than to simply point out where TD has screwed up using specific examples. I have plenty of posts on this site discussing the teams personnel moves over the last 4 years, I am not going to rehash each and every post I have ever written on TD, good or bad and I have written plenty of both. The point which you apparently don't seem to think matters in the least is that the final measure of all his moves is 4 years out of the playoffs. Coaches, free agents, trades, draft picks etc. in the end all those moves yielded very little in terms of results. Wins. That is how all the players are measured. That is how all the coaches are measured. That is how all the GM's around the league are measured. I don't see why TD should somehow be exempted from that standard, you seem to think that the on-the-field performance of this team simply is no measure of the great things TD has done. We disagree. That doesn't mean that he is soley responsible, it doesn't mean that he hasn't had some hits as well as some misses. It does mean that sooner or later, he has to produce a solid, winning football team or hit the road. The only question is when do you give up on the guy and go in another direction. For my part, this coming season ought to be his last chance to put up or shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Hey Gavin.... What did the five fingers say to the face? 265400[/snapback] They said is that really your face or did your neck throw up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 They said is that really your face or did your neck throw up? 265413[/snapback] no..... *SLAP* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 no..... *SLAP* 265434[/snapback] lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 You know Todd, it would have been nice to have a discussion where perhaps in the end we agree to disagree and not had to interject personal inuslts like calling people morons becuase they disagree with you. From your response, obviously, that isn't going to happen. Just one more adult male on the TBD acting like a 12 year old in a locker room rank fight because lord knows, that is just what this place needs more of. 265404[/snapback] Whatever, Mick. I mentioned the word moron, because to tell you the truth there are plenty of people who ARE morons. I know it sounds elitist, but when you read 100 posts saying "we should sign XXX" or "we shoulda done xxx" it drives me nuts. What kind of MORON thinks that decisions are made in a vacum? I'll stand by my moron statement not because someone disagrees with me - that's where you are completely wrong - but because if someone is incapable of supporting an argument with logic, they ARE a moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Moron is a blanket statement, especially in the context of a football fan board. This isn't the math olympiad. Being a fan doens't necessarily constitute being a student of the game. So if you want to say that some people have no grasp of "reality" then I can agree with you... but to judge their level of intelligence on a football message board is kind of a stretch. Whatever, Mick. I mentioned the word moron, because to tell you the truth there are plenty of people who ARE morons. I know it sounds elitist, but when you read 100 posts saying "we should sign XXX" or "we shoulda done xxx" it drives me nuts. What kind of MORON thinks that decisions are made in a vacum? I'll stand by my moron statement not because someone disagrees with me - that's where you are completely wrong - but because if someone is incapable of supporting an argument with logic, they ARE a moron. 265602[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 Gee, how big of you. Pioli's a genius, yes, but he ain't going anywhere. Also, need I remind you that The steelers were 6-10 in 2003? Apparently I do. My whole problem with your premise is that the goal is NOT to make the playoffs, it's to WIN THE SUPER BOWL. 265230[/snapback] Correct, but you can't get to the Super Bowl without first making the playoffs. And the GM's of all those teams I listed have gotten their respective teams much closer to the Super Bowl than TD has in the past 4 years - the past 2 of which I feel TD has no good excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Correct, but you can't get to the Super Bowl without first making the playoffs. And the GM's of all those teams I listed have gotten their respective teams much closer to the Super Bowl than TD has in the past 4 years - the past 2 of which I feel TD has no good excuse. 265649[/snapback] TD has an excuse, bro........starts with a D, ends with a B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 My point is that I'm pretty sure I can take a look at every draft and FA move and come up with things that they did wrong, or turned out wrong. 265248[/snapback] todd, Bill from NYC just named 4 better GM's than TD. Why don't you refute his post with more details, and support your dissent with logical arguments? Sincerely, - a moron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 todd, Bill from NYC just named 4 better GM's than TD. Why don't you refute his post with more details, and support your dissent with logical arguments? Sincerely, - a moron 265666[/snapback] Nice try. I have nothing to refute - there's no substance to his examples. BTW - you didn't answer my question properly either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Moron is a blanket statement, especially in the context of a football fan board. This isn't the math olympiad. Being a fan doens't necessarily constitute being a student of the game. So if you want to say that some people have no grasp of "reality" then I can agree with you... but to judge their level of intelligence on a football message board is kind of a stretch. 265631[/snapback] Of course being a fan doesn't necesitate being a student of the game, but I don't think it's too much to ask for someone to have just a little understanding of a process if they'd like to discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 Nice try. I have nothing to refute - there's no substance to his examples. BTW - you didn't answer my question properly either. 265670[/snapback] What? So you suggested earlier that TD is at worst the 4th best GM in the NFL, and you have "nothing to refute?" Ahahahaha! Back that statement up first before you start calling everyone else morons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 What? So you suggested earlier that TD is at worst the 4th best GM in the NFL, and you have "nothing to refute?" Ahahahaha! Back that statement up first before you start calling everyone else morons. 265681[/snapback] What are you suggesting? That I'm a moron? Here's what I asked: My original post If someone doesn't care to give details for me to refute, why should I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 todd, Bill from NYC just named 4 better GM's than TD. Why don't you refute his post with more details, and support your dissent with logical arguments? Sincerely, - a moron 265666[/snapback] IMO it doesn't really matter if there are better GMs than TD, unless one of them gets cut loose for some reason. I think the relevant question is are there people who would take the GM job for the Bills who would do a better job than TD. I have no idea to begin how to answer that, but it's the only question that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 I think the relevant question is are there people who would take the GM job for the Bills who would do a better job than TD. 265710[/snapback] No, but that's not even the relevant question. The question is do we Bills fans have a right to question TD's decision-making on this board without being called morons or without being expected to produce a "Fake-Fat Sunny" length essay to support our complaints in order to reach some standard of validity? None of the dissenters here have called for TD's head or have suggested that they themselves could have fielded a better team over the past 4 years. What we've said is that there are a number of reasons that suggest TD isn't doing as good of a job as most here give him credit for... i.e. he shouldn't be considered among the top 4 GM's currently in the league as todd has repeatedly alluded to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 No, but that's not even the relevant question. The question is do we Bills fans have a right to question TD's decision-making on this board without being called morons or without being expected to produce a "Fake-Fat Sunny" length essay to support our complaints in order to reach some standard of validity? None of the dissenters here have called for TD's head or have suggested that they themselves could have fielded a better team over the past 4 years. What we've said is that there are a number of reasons that suggest TD isn't doing as good of a job as most here give him credit for... i.e. he shouldn't be considered among the top 4 GM's currently in the league as todd has repeatedly alluded to... 265725[/snapback] I only know of a few "extremists" that back TD. Most people understand his flaws and errors (Drew, GW, Travis and MW). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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