Watkins trade, Dawkins over Glenn, Ducasse/Miller = McEgo

[thebandit27]

Think it's more a case of people in high profile leadership positions understand much more about what is going on than people who post on message boards and have absolutely know idea what is actually going on inside the room.

 

 

 

Hey, this line of logic worked really well when you chided my pre-game opinion of Vlad Ducasse, so why not double down on it, right?

Chip Kelly won 10 games in each of his first two seasons with Philly.........after taking over a team that the esteemed Andy Reid had taken to the tank.

 

He did a tremendous job installing his system and his "process"..........but he got carried away with finding "his" guys......cut star performers Desean Jackson and Evan Mathis and traded the devil he knew in McCoy and went the free agent route at RB.........and a ton of excellent work went to waste.

 

I think McD is making similarly ego driven mistakes..........he thinks he's being all about team, but he's being all about McD and calling it "team"..........he is running the risk of undermining a lot of the good things he's done by dumping legitimately star talent under the misguided belief that he can coach-up more grateful-to-just-be-here personnel.

 

As Chip Kelly found out......teams adjust to your X's and O's........and then it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's and if you can't win matchups you will start losing games.

 

It would behoove McD to start figuring out how to get guys like Dareus and Glenn, and even the average John Miller, excited about the project rather than alienate them.........if they are cut the odds of the situation at those positions turning into the debacle that trading Watkins has made of the WR corps(and subsequently the offensive identity and effectiveness) are high.

 

I started this thread because McD is trying to take credit for having some rookies playing regularly..........as if it doesn't matter if they stink and that playing them somehow guarantees future success for them..........seemingly blissful to the fact that Zay Jones has been tragic and Dawkins is struggling mightily and proving very costly to the Bills in starting roles.

 

The only indicator that a rookie will turn into a better player is if they are playing very well as a rookie.......just being out there or playing to some adjusted curve is how you get the misguided belief that a guy like Brandon Spoon is the answer to your LB woes.

 

I don't know that it's about ego as much as it is that McDermott believes that what he's doing is working toward fitting round pegs into round holes.

 

I agree that the end result is what's concerning

[Virgil]

History would show that the OP is probably right. But thats if you believe that history is an accurate representation of things to come.

 

After so many 3-2, even 5-2 starts, over the past 17 years that ended in failure, you cant comoletely dismiss it.

 

Do things feel different this time? A little. Are we benching players that earned large contracts and made probowls? Yes.

 

If Julio Jones doesnt get hurt, we probably lose to Atlanta. If our receivers arent hurt, we maybe beat Cinny. Its tough to say what team we are.

 

Like anyone with BBFS, its easy to be cautiously pessimistic. Truth is, we just dont know yet

[thebandit27]

History would show that the OP is probably right. But thats if you believe that history is an accurate representation of things to come.

 

After so many 3-2, even 5-2 starts, over the past 17 years that ended in failure, you cant comoletely dismiss it.

 

Do things feel different this time? A little. Are we benching players that earned large contracts and made probowls? Yes.

 

If Julio Jones doesnt get hurt, we probably lose to Atlanta. If our receivers arent hurt, we maybe beat Cinny. Its tough to say what team we are.

 

Like anyone with BBFS, its easy to be cautiously pessimistic. Truth is, we just dont know yet

 

For me, it has zero to do with BBFS; it has everything to do with that we have a team that is largely devoid of upper-echelon talent, but has been overachieving thus far. I fully expect a regression as the season continues; that, on its face, shouldn't be viewed as an indictment of what they've done so far IMO. Overachieving is a good thing--it speaks well of the game-planning and scheme.

[BillnutinHouston]

 

they've alienated just about every talented player on the roster

Really? Can you cite examples?

[Sky Diver]

Chip Kelly won 10 games in each of his first two seasons with Philly.........after taking over a team that the esteemed Andy Reid had taken to the tank.

 

He did a tremendous job installing his system and his "process"..........but he got carried away with finding "his" guys......cut star performers Desean Jackson and Evan Mathis and traded the devil he knew in McCoy and went the free agent route at RB.........and a ton of excellent work went to waste.

 

I think McD is making similarly ego driven mistakes..........he thinks he's being all about team, but he's being all about McD and calling it "team"..........he is running the risk of undermining a lot of the good things he's done by dumping legitimately star talent under the misguided belief that he can coach-up more grateful-to-just-be-here personnel.

 

As Chip Kelly found out......teams adjust to your X's and O's........and then it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's and if you can't win matchups you will start losing games.

 

It would behoove McD to start figuring out how to get guys like Dareus and Glenn, and even the average John Miller, excited about the project rather than alienate them.........if they are cut the odds of the situation at those positions turning into the debacle that trading Watkins has made of the WR corps(and subsequently the offensive identity and effectiveness) are high.

 

I started this thread because McD is trying to take credit for having some rookies playing regularly..........as if it doesn't matter if they stink and that playing them somehow guarantees future success for them..........seemingly blissful to the fact that Zay Jones has been tragic and Dawkins is struggling mightily and proving very costly to the Bills in starting roles.

 

The only indicator that a rookie will turn into a better player is if they are playing very well as a rookie.......just being out there or playing to some adjusted curve is how you get the misguided belief that a guy like Brandon Spoon is the answer to your LB woes.

 

Dareus appears to be a lost cause.

 

Glenn can't stay healthy.

 

Miller doesn't seem to be adapting well to the new blocking scheme.

[teef]

History would show that the OP is probably right. But thats if you believe that history is an accurate representation of things to come.

 

After so many 3-2, even 5-2 starts, over the past 17 years that ended in failure, you cant comoletely dismiss it.

 

Do things feel different this time? A little. Are we benching players that earned large contracts and made probowls? Yes.

 

If Julio Jones doesnt get hurt, we probably lose to Atlanta. If our receivers arent hurt, we maybe beat Cinny. Its tough to say what team we are.

 

Like anyone with BBFS, its easy to be cautiously pessimistic. Truth is, we just dont know yet

 

 

 

For me, it has zero to do with BBFS; it has everything to do with that we have a team that is largely devoid of upper-echelon talent, but has been overachieving thus far. I fully expect a regression as the season continues; that, on its face, shouldn't be viewed as an indictment of what they've done so far IMO. Overachieving is a good thing--it speaks well of the game-planning and scheme.

i think both of these are very well put.

[NoSaint]

Without knowing what's going on behind the scenes, there's no way to say whether the moves being made are because of ego or because you just can't motivate some players to greatness.

It's a lot of players. If he can't motivate ANY of the players we've seen excel that's kind of worrisome, no?

 

Not only do we have to find talent, and scheme fit, but also an increasingly narrow personality type... hopefully he finds a core and realizes you can have some higher risk guys around that to maximize talent still

[chris heff]

We're told to trust the process and should be all happy because we have lots of draft picks to build for the future. And I'm reassured every day by someone here that this time feels different. But here's my issue... The only process I see is a coach and GM that spent the off season cutting talent, to stockpile picks. And now using the playing season as a trial period to build depth. Is that a process to build a winning team or a coach and FO wasting a year while they figure out how to do their jobs?

Draft picks rarely light it up in year one. So how can anyone reasonably say next year we're going to be good because we have all these draft picks. IF.. They draft well, maybe we're good in 3 years, assuming all the currently good players are still here, still productive, or replaced by equally good players. So yeah, you can build a solid team for years to come through the draft, but without solid veteran players to rely on, you're just filling holes you dug all the while rookies are being thrown into the fire and make more mistakes than plays usually.

In the last 17 years we've seen every type of rebuild, restructure, baby making process imaginable. Perhaps this time is different, but I'm not sure anyone can fault any other fan for being skeptical, especially when we're seeing so many of the same mistakes being repeated. I don't know how anyone can look at current WR situation and think there's a plan there. And that's just one example, perhaps the most glaring, but it's only one example of the FO and HC doing something that you have to honestly stand back and say... WTF are they thinking.

In the end, I don't know if its ego, ignorance, or some grand plan that we can't see yet. I just know that sometimes the more things change, the more they stay the same.

This is exactly how I feel.

[Captain Murica]

These hot takes are amazing. All coaches and players have egos to an extent, if they didn't they wouldn't have jobs at the highest level.

 

Some of you are drunk and need to go to bed.

[Jerry Christ]

people.............geez.

[JohnC]

Chip Kelly won 10 games in each of his first two seasons with Philly.........after taking over a team that the esteemed Andy Reid had taken to the tank.

 

He did a tremendous job installing his system and his "process"..........but he got carried away with finding "his" guys......cut star performers Desean Jackson and Evan Mathis and traded the devil he knew in McCoy and went the free agent route at RB.........and a ton of excellent work went to waste.

 

I think McD is making similarly ego driven mistakes..........he thinks he's being all about team, but he's being all about McD and calling it "team"..........he is running the risk of undermining a lot of the good things he's done by dumping legitimately star talent under the misguided belief that he can coach-up more grateful-to-just-be-here personnel.

 

As Chip Kelly found out......teams adjust to your X's and O's........and then it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's and if you can't win matchups you will start losing games.

 

It would behoove McD to start figuring out how to get guys like Dareus and Glenn, and even the average John Miller, excited about the project rather than alienate them.........if they are cut the odds of the situation at those positions turning into the debacle that trading Watkins has made of the WR corps(and subsequently the offensive identity and effectiveness) are high.

 

I started this thread because McD is trying to take credit for having some rookies playing regularly..........as if it doesn't matter if they stink and that playing them somehow guarantees future success for them..........seemingly blissful to the fact that Zay Jones has been tragic and Dawkins is struggling mightily and proving very costly to the Bills in starting roles.

 

The only indicator that a rookie will turn into a better player is if they are playing very well as a rookie.......just being out there or playing to some adjusted curve is how you get the misguided belief that a guy like Brandon Spoon is the answer to your LB woes.

Goff was a disaster his rookie year and now it appears that he is going to be a franchise qb. Bruce Smith didn't play well his rookie year but turned out to be a HOF player. Moulds didn't have a stellar rookie year but he turned out to be one of our better receivers in the team's history. etc., etc.

 

Zay Jones has simply been inept. However, I'm not writing him off the rookie. Dawkins has been very inconsistent but there are occasions where he has demonstrated that he belongs. If you want to write him off go ahead. I'm not following your lead.

 

The Bills are a rebuilding team and organization. It is going to take at least another three years, assuming the qb position is upgraded. If you expected that this was going to be an easy transition then you weren't being realistic. You may not understand what the wrestling coach is doing but I do.

[mjt328]

Chip Kelly won 10 games in each of his first two seasons with Philly.........after taking over a team that the esteemed Andy Reid had taken to the tank.

 

He did a tremendous job installing his system and his "process"..........but he got carried away with finding "his" guys......cut star performers Desean Jackson and Evan Mathis and traded the devil he knew in McCoy and went the free agent route at RB.........and a ton of excellent work went to waste.

 

I think McD is making similarly ego driven mistakes..........he thinks he's being all about team, but he's being all about McD and calling it "team"..........he is running the risk of undermining a lot of the good things he's done by dumping legitimately star talent under the misguided belief that he can coach-up more grateful-to-just-be-here personnel.

 

As Chip Kelly found out......teams adjust to your X's and O's........and then it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's and if you can't win matchups you will start losing games.

 

It would behoove McD to start figuring out how to get guys like Dareus and Glenn, and even the average John Miller, excited about the project rather than alienate them.........if they are cut the odds of the situation at those positions turning into the debacle that trading Watkins has made of the WR corps(and subsequently the offensive identity and effectiveness) are high.

 

I started this thread because McD is trying to take credit for having some rookies playing regularly..........as if it doesn't matter if they stink and that playing them somehow guarantees future success for them..........seemingly blissful to the fact that Zay Jones has been tragic and Dawkins is struggling mightily and proving very costly to the Bills in starting roles.

 

The only indicator that a rookie will turn into a better player is if they are playing very well as a rookie.......just being out there or playing to some adjusted curve is how you get the misguided belief that a guy like Brandon Spoon is the answer to your LB woes.

 

I agree with your basic premise, but not some of the finer points.

 

It's becoming pretty clear that Sammy Watkins was traded either because of his upcoming salary OR because he was selfish and not a team player. Possibly a little bit of both. After five games, it's hard to argue against the logic of this trade on Buffalo's part (and I'm saying this as someone who felt we got ripped off). Watkins is still doing nothing for the Rams, despite the rest of the team putting up great offensive production. Watkins has also publicly admitted his attitude in Buffalo was poor.

 

At left tackle, it's hard to make a determination because Cordy Glenn has been hurt. Don't forget he DID start the first two games of the season, and struggled badly in both of them. It's possible that coaches are just holding Glenn back due to the injury. Maybe they meant to get him some reps Sunday, but later decided to give him another two week's rest. It's also very possible that Glenn is not showing well in practice - and is not adapting well to the zone blocking scheme. This seems to be the case across most of our O-Line.

 

At guard, John Miller has given Jordan Mills a run for his money on being our worst O-Lineman this year. He definitely doesn't fit the zone blocking scheme, and has been completely terrible. I can't blame the coaching staff for giving another player a chance in that spot.

 

 

With that said, I absolutely do place blame on Sean McDermott and his staff for installing this horrendous zone blocking scheme. Virtually all of our linemen are struggling, including regular Pro-Bowler Ritchie Incognito and veteran Eric Wood. Almost NONE of our current guys fit the system. Our running game went from the NFL's best, to a pathetic joke. Maybe it was ego. Maybe it was ignorance. But the decision to overhaul our blocking will be the main reason the Bills miss the playoffs AGAIN in 2017. There are virtually no doubts in my mind. And when the season is over, we are going to need to replace virtually EVERY O-Line player on the roster.

[Pirate Angel]

Watkins trade was understandable, Glenn could play but still isn't 100%, buy using him sparingly it allows him to get to the buy with 2 more weeks to heal, as far as ducasse, I don't think they are pleased with anyone at RG at the moment

[The Jokeman]

It was relevant then and still is. A couple penalties and calls breaking either way doesn't change their deficiencies. It just put some lipstick on the pig. Lose a winnable game, and some of the winning " deodorant" wears off.

That's the nature of today's NFL that winning and losing usually comes down to one play. While some teams like the Patriots and Packers can seemingly make it where others can't. That said the Bills looked to be on the side where they can make it sometimes which keeps us in the discussion. Heck we're still leading the AFC East at this moment and don't think we have to worry about the Jets or Dolphins catching us, now us keeping up with the Patriots has yet to be seen but at least we are not totally killing our Wild Card chances either with just 1 conference lost.

[sleeby]

I don't get many of you at all. The ryan bums are gone! That's huge. Very happy fpr that right off. The defense is fun to watch again after two years of rex ruining it.

New coaches and this was not expected to be pur year - ever. Then the trades which told us for certain that we are rebuilding and this was not our year. Gilmour, darby, watkins. . .whatever. I like sammy but he was a prima donna receiver in buffalo plus always injured. Wish him a great career in fact but I never expected him to be here for 10 years anyhow. So we got stuff for him while we could

 

Our D is way better than anyone expected so soon. We are loaded with picks as well. The usual 1BD lax attitude seems cleaned up finally as well.

 

Who cares about this season with regards to a wild card game? Had the D not been so uch better than expected and we went 1-4 start you guys wpuld not be as unhappy I think. You'd be happy rex was gone, the team lax attitude was gone and we are heading in the right direction.

 

Perhaps a taste of honey is not better than none at all some times.

 

Chin up! Let's just hope we don't get 9 or 10 wins and then not make wild card else get crushed that game and so hurt our draft for lacking patience. I mean, who has more patience than bills fans?! C'mon!

[2003Contenders]

Just some random thoughts in response the the OP:

 

-- I am tired of the turnstile that we have seen at OBD over the last 17 years. Going back to 2000 we have had seven general managers (if you count the year in which Brandon was the de facto GM) and ten head coaches (if you count the interim ones). McD and Bean are a package team, and I would like to give them a few years before we start insisting on another regime.

 

-- Let's review each of the players that you believe he did/does not want on the team:

 

Sammy: I love Sammy's upside, but durability and availability have been a concern for him. When the team decided against his 5th-year option, the writing should have been on the wall that his days in Buffalo were numbered. Rather than letting him play out a final season in Buffalo which would have resulted in either another injury-plagued campaign -- or a strong enough season to warrant an inflated contract from another team -- the Bills managed to trade him for a useful CB (whose presence was REALLY missed in Sunday's loss to the Bengals) and a 2nd round pick. Aside from one huge game against the 49ers this season, Sammy has been MIA for the Rams.

 

Darby: He was a Rex acquisition, and even Rex admitted that Darby had not shown that he could ever develop the ball skills that the team had hoped he would learn. The trade with Philly brought back a 3rd rounder plus J. Matthews, whose career production had matched Watkins'. BTW, the team REALLY missed Matthews' presence in Sunday's loss to the Bengals. However, his current injuries appear to be aberrations, as he has not historically been injury prone as has Watkins. Again, the trade with the Rams brought back a similar-quality player in Gaines at the same position as Darby, who appears to be a better fit for the McD defense.

 

Darues: Yes, we can go back to the Doug M. years and talk about what a motivated presence he was back then. But guess what? He has not been the same player since he signed the huge contract. Rex failed with him, and maybe McD is trying to send him a message that a big $ contract does not equate to undeserved playing time.

 

Glenn: When healthy he is a fine OT -- but is he really one of the top 2 in the league (as the size of his contract suggests)? He has not been healthy since last season, and it is hard to know the full nature of his health now. I know he dressed on Sunday, but maybe that was for an emergency situation.

 

-- I am not sure what you are referring to in regards to McD's demeanor that would suggest that he is full of himself. He is a professional NFL head coach, so being very confident sort of goes with the territory. From what I have seen, he seems very measured and pragmatic. Obviously, the verdict is still out, so we will see.

[sleeby]

The one thing thst irked me was losing that RB williams kid at the end of pre season. Wish he were here still. Can only assume it was personality or something cause he was fun to watch amd sure helped make up for the loss of gillislee who was great.

[jkeerie]

Just some random thoughts in response the the OP:

 

-- I am tired of the turnstile that we have seen at OBD over the last 17 years. Going back to 2000 we have had seven general managers (if you count the year in which Brandon was the de facto GM) and ten head coaches (if you count the interim ones). McD and Bean are a package team, and I would like to give them a few years before we start insisting on another regime.

 

-- Let's review each of the players that you believe he did/does not want on the team:

 

Sammy: I love Sammy's upside, but durability and availability have been a concern for him. When the team decided against his 5th-year option, the writing should have been on the wall that his days in Buffalo were numbered. Rather than letting him play out a final season in Buffalo which would have resulted in either another injury-plagued campaign -- or a strong enough season to warrant an inflated contract from another team -- the Bills managed to trade him for a useful CB (whose presence was REALLY missed in Sunday's loss to the Bengals) and a 2nd round pick. Aside from one huge game against the 49ers this season, Sammy has been MIA for the Rams.

 

Darby: He was a Rex acquisition, and even Rex admitted that Darby had not shown that he could ever develop the ball skills that the team had hoped he would learn. The trade with Philly brought back a 3rd rounder plus J. Matthews, whose career production had matched Watkins'. BTW, the team REALLY missed Matthews' presence in Sunday's loss to the Bengals. However, his current injuries appear to be aberrations, as he has not historically been injury prone as has Watkins. Again, the trade with the Rams brought back a similar-quality player in Gaines at the same position as Darby, who appears to be a better fit for the McD defense.

 

Darues: Yes, we can go back to the Doug M. years and talk about what a motivated presence he was back then. But guess what? He has not been the same player since he signed the huge contract. Rex failed with him, and maybe McD is trying to send him a message that a big $ contract does not equate to undeserved playing time.

 

Glenn: When healthy he is a fine OT -- but is he really one of the top 2 in the league (as the size of his contract suggests)? He has not been healthy since last season, and it is hard to know the full nature of his health now. I know he dressed on Sunday, but maybe that was for an emergency situation.

 

-- I am not sure what you are referring to in regards to McD's demeanor that would suggest that he is full of himself. He is a professional NFL head coach, so being very confident sort of goes with the territory. From what I have seen, he seems very measured and pragmatic. Obviously, the verdict is still out, so we will see.

This is the sanest, most rational post I've read in this thread (not saying that anyone that has posted have made invalid posts...not at all.) You are dead on 2003Contenders in your assessment of the players jettisoned or benched.

 

I think that Beane and McDermott are being equally rational in their decision making. I think that of course they are going to try to win this year. But as others have posted, they are building and are trying to figure out what type of team they have to build on. It's like McD said in his presser...its in November and December that your you really see your "set" roster.

 

Unfortunately, likely because McD is a good coach, this team and these players have over-achieved. They've done better than any of us could have imagined. We as fans are emotionally invested in this team...and after 17 years of misery we see the "promised land playoffs" on the horizon. With our starters, it may have been in reach...but you have to get there with players that are not starters when injuries occur. The lack of depth hurt us in Cincinnati and because of past decisions it will take time for this team to build and create depth.

 

As much as we want to criticize McD for his hand-clapping and positive take on a miserable performance, he's being what he should be... a coach. There is a process in place, and a goal they are working towards. If he bails on that and sharply criticizes his players publicly, how does he get them to buy in and keep working and trying? So what you interpret as ego, I see as a first year coach who's trying to figure it out one game at a time.

 

Let's see what they do with the week off. Would I like to see some roster moves? Yes...but not out of desperation. If they make any roster moves, they need to be rational moves like they've done to this point. Ideally, trading Dareus or Glenn for some help. This isn't Madden, though, and it takes a trading partner who would see them as assets that could help their team. Coaching moves I'd like to see? I wish Dennison would go back to what success this offensive roster had in the past and back off his revised blocking schemes, Taylor as a pocket passer, etc.

 

Again...let's wait and see what they do.

[Green Lightning]

 

Belichik has an ego but is not to afraid to admit a mistake an move on (see Kony Ealy earlier this year).

 

And if Gilmore doesn't turn it around and play lights out the rest of the season you better believe they won't be afraid to dump him after one season either.

And so after 5 games you have McD all figured out? It's clear he's coaching for the long term. BB has a dozen-plus years body of work to review.

[Doc]

And so after 5 games you have McD all figured out? It's clear he's coaching for the long term. BB has a dozen-plus years body of work to review.

 

And his first go-around has a HC was an abject failure.