Sammy Watkins complaining about targets again

[Dr.Sack]

Sammy

[Deranged Rhino]

And you still haven't answered the question of how many more weeks we will have to wait until we see his "eliteness". Come on, ball park a number.

Because the longer we wait, the value of that asset continues to drop.

 

I did answer it - no one is waiting to "see his eliteness". He's displayed it already. What he hasn't yet done is shown consistent availability. That's on him to prove. When you watch his tape his elite qualities jump off the screen. The only folks who deny this are ones with an agenda or an ax to grind.

 

 

So what you have is a perceived value prior to the season. That is not actual value. Just because something is shiny and looks like gold, doesn't mean it's gold.

That perceived value also assumes all of Sammy Watkins production issues were related to the organization and how he was used (TT was his QB, run heavy scheme, etc)

 

This is all Incorrect. Sammy's value is determined by the front offices of 32 teams and their needs. On an individual scouting level there isn't a scout in the league that will say Sammy is anything other than an elite talent at the WR position. To argue this is to either expose your own ignorance at player evaluations or your agenda.

 

Headed into this season the big flag on Sammy's scouting reports were health related, and because of that his value was deflated at the time of the trade. This, again, is inarguable. Now, every team is going to make their evaluations differently in terms of what Sammy would need to "do" to make them feel comfortable about his long term health issues, but clearly teams still valued Sammy highly considering what the Rams gave up to procure him without knowing for sure if he's "injury prone".

 

The perceived value has little to do with the scheme of the team he's coming from. That barely enters into the equation when considering if they want to deal for him. It's about his physical talents (of which Sammy's are elite in nearly every category you'd want for a receiver), scheme fit, personality (definitely plays a role) and projected value in your system.

 

 

But a funny thing happened. He got traded. He's now the 3-4 WR. The foot is no longer the issue. Where's the production?

 

It's a long season and he's 5 games in - after getting traded mid camp to a team with a young QB. Chemistry takes a bit of time to develop. You want to say he's not producing based on 5 games that's your prerogative, I just think you're jumping the gun.

 

Ask the Rams if he's making an impact on Sundays, or watch the tape. They're pleased with what he brings to the field here in LA, I promise you.

 

 

 

Your point is still moot. You assume Sammy's value could only go up. Your entire assumption of increased value is based on a belief that somehow Sammy's production would increase if he stayed here.

 

Incorrect. That is not what I said nor the point I'm making.

 

I'm saying Sammy's already put up enough numbers in Buffalo to net a higher return than what they got. The only people who are under the delusion that Sammy isn't a legit #1 WR are Bills fans who have an agenda against the guy. Every other personnel department in the league has him as a #1, including the Bills.

 

The missing piece was he was injured for most of the last season. I never assumed Sammy's value could only go up, in fact I said the opposite. What I did say was that I'm betting on his value going up just by demonstrating he's not injury prone.

 

That takes more than two weeks of training camp to prove, and more than 5 games to be fair.

 

 

 

And that somehow, the Bills would be 5-0.

Mind you, this is with Taylor still being his QB, and Taylor is supposedly one of the reasons why Sammy's numbers suck to begin with. Feel free to explain how that works.

 

You can keep putting words into my mouth and argue points I never made, or we can stick to what I say and focus on that. I haven't mentioned Taylor once, nor scheme.

 

But if you want my opinion on that:

 

Taylor and Sammy have established chemistry that Goff and Sammy are still building. If Sammy stayed in Buffalo, even with a new system, his learning curve is much shorter. Of course I'm speculating saying the Bills would be 5-0 with Sammy - but it's a pretty safe speculation. The Bills were a legit WR threat away from beating Carolina and Cinci. Sammy is a legit WR threat who has undeniable chemistry Taylor.

 

This front office traded away at least two wins already by moving Sammy. Maybe that won't matter come December. I'm guessing it will.

 

 

 

What if the Bills already concluded Sammy's production was not going to go up, because the biggest issue with Sammy is Sammy himself.

 

That is indeed the entire question we are debating. My response is, unless Sammy is sacrificing goats in the locker room before games, his attitude and demands are entirely in line with every other WR in the league. And that, to me, is not worth shipping out an elite playmaker when your roster is nearly devoid of elite playmakers.

 

If Sammy's attitude problems extend beyond being "selfish/demanding the ball", then we're having a different conversation. So far, that's all we've heard. To me, it's a silly reason - culture or no culture - to sacrifice a legit defense and shot at the playoffs because you think Sammy is "selfish". You, obviously, disagree.

 

So let me ask you... let's say this team finishes 8-8 and two games out of the playoffs. And for sake of argument let's just say you agree they would have beaten Cinci and Carolina with Sammy still on the team. Would you say that sacrificing those two wins, and missing out on the playoffs for an 18th straight season in the process, was worth it just to get rid of a diva wide receiver?

 

Don't you think a first year coach and GM would get more out of ending the playoff drought than they would a second round pick and EJ Gaines in terms of both goodwill of ownership and the fans?

Edited October 11, 2017 by Deranged Rhino

[Thurman#1]

A receiver complaining about targets? Wow, next thing you'll tell me some actors are temperamental.

[Billsfan1972]

 

I did answer it - no one is waiting to "see his eliteness". He's displayed it already. What he hasn't yet done is shown consistent availability. That's on him to prove. When you watch his tape his elite qualities jump off the screen. The only folks who deny this are ones with an agenda or an ax to grind.

 

 

This is all Incorrect. Sammy's value is determined by the front offices of 32 teams and their needs. On an individual scouting level there isn't a scout in the league that will say Sammy is anything other than an elite talent at the WR position. To argue this is to either expose your own ignorance at player evaluations or your agenda.

 

Headed into this season the big flag on Sammy's scouting reports were health related, and because of that his value was deflated at the time of the trade. This, again, is inarguable. Now, every team is going to make their evaluations differently in terms of what Sammy would need to "do" to make them feel comfortable about his long term health issues, but clearly teams still valued Sammy highly considering what the Rams gave up to procure him without knowing for sure if he's "injury prone".

 

The perceived value has little to do with the scheme of the team he's coming from. That barely enters into the equation when considering if they want to deal for him. It's about his physical talents (of which Sammy's are elite in nearly every category you'd want for a receiver), scheme fit, personality (definitely plays a role) and projected value in your system.

 

 

 

It's a long season and he's 5 games in - after getting traded mid camp to a team with a young QB. Chemistry takes a bit of time to develop. You want to say he's not producing based on 5 games that's your prerogative, I just think you're jumping the gun.

 

Ask the Rams if he's making an impact on Sundays, or watch the tape. They're pleased with what he brings to the field here in LA, I promise you.

 

 

 

Incorrect. That is not what I said nor the point I'm making.

 

I'm saying Sammy's already put up enough numbers in Buffalo to net a higher return than what they got. The only people who are under the delusion that Sammy isn't a legit #1 WR are Bills fans who have an agenda against the guy. Every other personnel department in the league has him as a #1, including the Bills.

 

The missing piece was he was injured for most of the last season. I never assumed Sammy's value could only go up, in fact I said the opposite. What I did say was that I'm betting on his value going up just by demonstrating he's not injury prone.

 

That takes more than two weeks of training camp to prove, and more than 5 games to be fair.

 

 

 

You can keep putting words into my mouth and argue points I never made, or we can stick to what I say and focus on that. I haven't mentioned Taylor once, nor scheme.

 

But if you want my opinion on that:

 

Taylor and Sammy have established chemistry that Goff and Sammy are still building. If Sammy stayed in Buffalo, even with a new system, his learning curve is much shorter. Of course I'm speculating saying the Bills would be 5-0 with Sammy - but it's a pretty safe speculation. The Bills were a legit WR threat away from beating Carolina and Cinci. Sammy is a legit WR threat who has undeniable chemistry Taylor.

 

This front office traded away at least two wins already by moving Sammy. Maybe that won't matter come December. I'm guessing it will.

 

 

 

That is indeed the entire question we are debating. My response is, unless Sammy is sacrificing goats in the locker room before games, his attitude and demands are entirely in line with every other WR in the league. And that, to me, is not worth shipping out an elite playmaker when your roster is nearly devoid of elite playmakers.

 

If Sammy's attitude problems extend beyond being "selfish/demanding the ball", then we're having a different conversation. So far, that's all we've heard. To me, it's a silly reason - culture or no culture - to sacrifice a legit defense and shot at the playoffs because you think Sammy is "selfish". You, obviously, disagree.

 

So let me ask you... let's say this team finishes 8-8 and two games out of the playoffs. And for sake of argument let's just say you agree they would have beaten Cinci and Carolina with Sammy still on the team. Would you say that sacrificing those two wins, and missing out on the playoffs for an 18th straight season in the process, was worth it just to get rid of a diva wide receiver?

 

Don't you think a first year coach and GM would get more out of ending the playoff drought than they would a second round pick and EJ Gaines in terms of both goodwill of ownership and the fans?

Trust the process......

 

Not worth arguing as those who hated Watkins was solely based on them buying in to the crapshoot that is the NFL Draft.

 

The Bills paid too much and he get's injured.

 

Who cares when he was 100% healthy he was elite.

 

8-8 is the worst case scenario (and very likely) as now the TT debate and a mid first round pick is up the Bills again.

 

I didn't fully blame TT, I thought the OC made little attempt to spotlight him. They seem to do it with Shady, but as I always said you watch Watkins and the lack of movement or lining him up elsewhere along with Tyrod seldom surveying the field or audiblng (sp?) and to me it was a major issue.

 

I see the same with Goff.

 

So for the "HATERS" please answer me why opposing coaches have their best players and double coverage assigned to Watkins if he is so bad?

 

Why do countless press/announcers/experts too ask why Goff isn't throwing to him?

[JohnC]

You realize this was the exact argument made for drafting him, give a young developing QB a great receiver to make his job easier. And the Bills got blasted for it.

You got the argument twisted. In Buffalo Whaley's reasoning was that a talented receiver could make the limited qb functional. Taylor was never considered to be a young developing qb in the sense that he had recognized limitations to his game. There is no point to argue otherwise because this veteran qb has not outgrown his liabilities. He is what he is. Or another way of saying it the receiver was brought in at a costly price to prop up the qb. That's different from having a talented passing qb maximizing the talents of a receiver. So far in LA Watkins hasn't been fully exploited. But that shouldn't be a surprise because he joined the team late and the Rams have other weapons such as Gurley and Kupp.

 

I have said it many times but it is futile to heavily invest in a talented receiver, whoever it may be, if the qb is mediocre at best. The Falcons got it right when they made an expensive deal to draft Julio Jones because they had Matt Ryan as their qb. Buffalo as usual got it half-assssed backwards.

Again I agree with this assessment after actually watching the games. Unlike the haters here who look at a box score. I've seen SW holding his hand up wide open and Goff doesn't even look there. SW is doing his job as far as I can tell. He s still the new guy there but Goff seems to lock onto targets and not go through his progressions at times.

 

Wow , it actually bothers you that there are fans of Watkins, the player? Not all of us root only for laundry. That seems to offend you. Whatever your diatribe is based on, you spend a lot of time worrying about a player you clearly don't don't like.

 

Solid and realistic analysis. He got traded to the Rams and is playing with a QB that didn't even look ready for prime time in 2016. It's not like he was traded to the Patriots.

With respect to the highlighted segment you make a good point. The Rams made a big investment in trading for Goff. Especially with qbs there is a developmental period. In his rookie year he simply wasn't ready. In his second year he made a quantum leap but still is far away from being an established qb. In the next year or two he should be a much more impactful player. Because of the time required for the learning process I have strongly argued to get a serious prospect on board sooner rather than later. Dithering is not a solution---it is a problem.

[oldmanfan]

You got the argument twisted. In Buffalo Whaley's reasoning was that a talented receiver could make the limited qb functional. Taylor was never considered to be a young developing qb in the sense that he had recognized limitations to his game. There is no point to argue otherwise because this veteran qb has not outgrown his liabilities. He is what he is. Or another way of saying it the receiver was brought in at a costly price to prop up the qb. That's different from having a talented passing qb maximizing the talents of a receiver. So far in LA Watkins hasn't been fully exploited. But that shouldn't be a surprise because he joined the team late and the Rams have other weapons such as Gurley and Kupp.

 

I have said it many times but it is futile to heavily invest in a talented receiver, whoever it may be, if the qb is mediocre at best. The Falcons got it right when they made an expensive deal to draft Julio Jones because they had Matt Ryan as their qb. Buffalo as usual got it half-assssed backwards.

With respect to the highlighted segment you make a good point. The Rams made a big investment in trading for Goff. Especially with qbs there is a developmental period. In his rookie year he simply wasn't ready. In his second year he made a quantum leap but still is far away from being an established qb. In the next year or two he should be a much more impactful player. Because of the time required for the learning process I have strongly argued to get a serious prospect on board sooner rather than later. Dithering is not a solution---it is a problem.

They drafted Watkins to help out EJ, not Taylor. Get your QBs straight. And EJ looked better as a rookie that did Goff.

 

It's just typical hypocrisy around here.

[JohnC]

They drafted Watkins to help out EJ, not Taylor. Get your QBs straight. And EJ looked better as a rookie that did Goff.

 

It's just typical hypocrisy around here.

You are right that they drafted Watkins to help EJ. It didn't work because the problem was with the qb. The same issue followed when Taylor became the qb. The point is that the receiver is not substantially going to mask the inherent deficiencies that the qb has. That's the point!

 

With respect to EJ looking better than Goff as a rookie, so what? Who is the better qb now and in the future? EJ is going to be a pedestrian backup while Goff has the potential to be an established franchise qb for the rest of his career. When you make an instant judgment on a player without allowing for development time you are making judgments that are prone to be wrong.

[Coach Tuesday]

He is getting open. I dont hear any of you saying otherwise, nor could you, because he is. So whats the problem? Either hes running the wrong routes (but still getting open) or the passing game is being designed to exploit other matchups. Which is it?

 

I suspect that McVay is installing his offense carefully and getting Goff used to short and intermediate reads and routes first. Once Goff gets comfortable with those higher-percentage passes and gains confidence, youll see them utilize the deeper routes that Sammy runs. I expect him to go on a tear beginning this month or early November. The only thing that will hold him back is injury.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Coach Tuesday

[JohnC]

He is getting open. I dont hear any of you saying otherwise, nor could you, because he is. So whats the problem? Either hes running the wrong routes (but still getting open) or the passing game is being designed to exploit other matchups. Which is it?

 

I suspect that McVay is installing his offense carefully and getting Goff used to short and intermediate reads and routes first. Once Goff gets comfortable with those higher-percentage passes and gains confidence, youll see them utilize the deeper routes that Sammy runs. I expect him to go on a tear beginning this month or early November. The only thing that will hold him back is injury.

You make an excellent point about keeping the game simple for Goff and then building off that. Herm Edwards was asked on a radio show why Goff is doing so much better this year and seems more confident. He made the point, as you did, that he called simple pass plays so that he can get completions and boost his confidence. This is good coaching and player development.

 

There is another factor as to why Goff is making a quantum leap forward in his second year. In the offseason, the OL was bolstered and the running game with Gurley was emphasized to take the pressure off of the qb. In addition, Kupp was drafted and Watkins was belatedly added. Or another way of saying this is that the offense got better with added players. What it came down to is that the qb was put in a better position to succeed.

[Billsfan1972]

You make an excellent point about keeping the game simple for Goff and then building off that. Herm Edwards was asked on a radio show why Goff is doing so much better this year and seems more confident. He made the point, as you did, that he called simple pass plays so that he can get completions and boost his confidence. This is good coaching and player development.

 

There is another factor as to why Goff is making a quantum leap forward in his second year. In the offseason, the OL was bolstered and the running game with Gurley was emphasized to take the pressure off of the qb. In addition, Kupp was drafted and Watkins was belatedly added. Or another way of saying this is that the offense got better with added players. What it came down to is that the qb was put in a better position to succeed.

And this was the same with TT. Watching Watkins run open or lined up in favorable coverage and no checkdowns, movement by the WR's, surveying the field or audibles drove me crazy.

 

Then week 2 of pre-season 4 straight passes to Watkins and all of a sudden it seems the light was turned on only to see him traded and a train wreck of an offense (setting TT to fail) tells me what I want to know about the Bills FO.

 

Again Watkins/Boldin/Jones vs. Matthews/Jones...... Which is better?

Edited October 11, 2017 by Billsfan1972

[CommonCents]

Goff has 24 completions of 20 plus yards which is tied for the league lead with Brady. So relating his success to simple throws is quite the stretttttcccchhhhhhhh.

[HappyDays]

He is getting open. I dont hear any of you saying otherwise, nor could you, because he is. So whats the problem? Either hes running the wrong routes (but still getting open) or the passing game is being designed to exploit other matchups. Which is it?

 

I suspect that McVay is installing his offense carefully and getting Goff used to short and intermediate reads and routes first. Once Goff gets comfortable with those higher-percentage passes and gains confidence, youll see them utilize the deeper routes that Sammy runs. I expect him to go on a tear beginning this month or early November. The only thing that will hold him back is injury.

But this is the problem with Sammy. He's a great deep threat and that's it. The elite receivers people have been comparing him to for years, like Julio Jones, can run an intermediate route in double coverage and you can still trust him to catch the ball most of the time. Sammy stretches the field and acts as a decoy. He did that in Buffalo and he's doing it now in LA. It's getting to the point where you have to admit that's all he is really good for. And I would trade a receiver with that skill set for a 2nd round pick over paying him elite money 100% of the time.

[row_33]

Sammy Watkins complaining.

 

That was enough to set my watch by.

[oldmanfan]

You are right that they drafted Watkins to help EJ. It didn't work because the problem was with the qb. The same issue followed when Taylor became the qb. The point is that the receiver is not substantially going to mask the inherent deficiencies that the qb has. That's the point!

 

With respect to EJ looking better than Goff as a rookie, so what? Who is the better qb now and in the future? EJ is going to be a pedestrian backup while Goff has the potential to be an established franchise qb for the rest of his career. When you make an instant judgment on a player without allowing for development time you are making judgments that are prone to be wrong.

The same people that went nuts over them draftingbhim to help EJ are all agog over the Rams getting him to help Goff. And EJ as a rookie looked better than Goff. It's revisionist history to claim otherwise.

[without a drought]

Are we still pretending that Sammy isn't better than anything we have at wr

[oldmanfan]

Are we still pretending that Sammy isn't better than anything we have at wr

Of course he is. I didn't like the trade. But it is puzzling that he hasn't shown a ton in LA

[Coach Tuesday]

Goff has 24 completions of 20 plus yards which is tied for the league lead with Brady. So relating his success to simple throws is quite the stretttttcccchhhhhhhh.

 

What is the average air distance traveled? And is Sammy getting open or not? I'll hang up and listen.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Coach Tuesday

[folz]

Rhino...Sammy may have elite ability and elite potential (you probably won't find many to disagree with that) but you can not call him an elite WR in this league.

At least not yet. With 4+ years in the league this is what you are getting from Sammy:

 

10 games played per season / 61 yds per game / .45 TDs per game

 

over a season, that would equate to 610 yds and 4 or 5 TDs. That is good for a 2nd WR, great for your 3rd WR, but does not equate to elite.

If he played 16 games with those averages, it looks better with 976 yards and 7 TDs which is very good, but still not elite.

 

Add in his availability issues to date and his possible "me" centric attitude and I doubt there are many teams who would have given us more than what we got

for him. No one was giving up a 1st rounder for that production. To think that every other front office would pay top dollar (money-wise or trade-value-wise) for

Sammy is naïve. Most GMs and coaches are conservative and don't pay for potential (they may draft for it, but you don't give up too many assets for it).

 

 

Yes, Sammy has big potential and if he stayed healthy for a whole season and had good QB play in the right scheme, no doubt he could be elite.

But there is no way he can be considered that at this point in his career. Elite potential means nothing until you prove it on a consistent basis.

Plenty of guys have had potential and it never quite panned out in the league. To be elite you have to be available and consistent. So far we have seen a few

games in his rookie year, one game for the Rams this year, and that 8-10 game stretch in 2015. That equates to less than 1/4 of his playing career thus far

where he played at an elite level.

 

I like Sammy, even drafted him in Fantasy because I thought he would break out now that he's healthy and maybe he will eventually reach elite status,

but as of now, no, he is not an elite receiver and I think the Bills made the right call moving on from him...even though we could use him now. It was the

right move for this team at this time.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

I think he's pretty great, what are you talking about?

Plus 1

[without a drought]

Of course he is. I didn't like the trade. But it is puzzling that he hasn't shown a ton in LA

They do have a lot of options to throw the ball to and I just think that their young qb is more comfortable with some of his other choices. Until the last 2 games he caught something like 12 of 13 targets. I think they'll be fine.

 

My main problem with the trade was that Sammy was the only player i would see Tyrod throw to with any anticipation.