Webster Guy Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 The White touchdown was a gift and a really terrible call. When the arm started forward, he had possession. The Hyde interception was almost as bad as the ground helped him catch it. I was quite sure both plays would be reversed. Would like to see Dennison throw more at the end. Having said this, thrilled to be 3-1! you are missing the point on the ryan fumble. i was too until Kelso explained it perfectly. This was not your typical "is his arm moving forward when he loses control of the football? " Matt Ryan clearly lost control of the football BEFORE his arm was coming forward. It is now a fumble, not a forward pass. Miraculously, he sort of recovers the ball with his finertips during the throwing motion and pushes it forward, but he never regained possession or control of the fumble. one caller said big ben did the same thing a few years back and they called it a fumble for the same reason. under review, the criteria the refs were using had nothing to do with arm motion and all about whether or not he re-possessed the ball, which as you could tell by the fluttering ball he didnt. Kelso was all over it.
GunnerBill Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Matt Ryan clearly lost control of the football BEFORE his arm was coming forward. I don't think that is clear at all. I think it is certainly arguable that was the case, but I saw it differently. They were probably right not to overturn because there was no clear evidence it was a 50/50 call but whether he controlled it is still a subjective point. I think he did still control it actually and we got a bit of a break. No that I am complaining or taking anything away from our win.
Virgil Posted October 2, 2017 Author Posted October 2, 2017 See I don't think it was. I think it wobbled in his hand but I don't think it was coming loose. He still had possession in my opinion. Ultimately I think it is subjective and I can see why someone might look at that wobble and say that does not constitute control. I think they were probably right to stay with how it was called on the field, but had it been called incomplete on the field no way it would have been overturned on review it was simply too close of a call whichever way they called it. A wobble for a WR means he doesnt have possession for a catch. So shouldnt that be the same for a QB when passing? Im not arguing or saying youre wrong. I honestly dont even know anymore with all the rules.
GunnerBill Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 A wobble for a WR means he doesnt have possession for a catch. So shouldnt that be the same for a QB when passing? Im not arguing or saying youre wrong. I honestly dont even know anymore with all the rules. The rules are hideously lacking in clarity I agree with that.
SoFFacet Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Fumble Return TD - The ball came loose. It was touching his hand when his arm came forward, but that's not enough to re-establish control. That would be like saying that a player momentarily possesses the ball on a batted pass. 4 & goal Delay of Game - Obviously the point wasn't to draw them offsides. They were snapping the ball if they got the defensive look they wanted. Taking the penalty made no difference to the FG attempt. Tolbert - Not sure why he's on the team. Our backup RB situation is really bad. That one play when both he and Shady were nicked up and the handed off to Dimarco was just sad.
GunnerBill Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) Tolbert - Not sure why he's on the team. Our backup RB situation is really bad. That one play when both he and Shady were nicked up and the handed off to Dimarco was just sad. I have presumed that Banyard has not dressed because they are content with Taiwan Jones as an emergency 3rd back if needed. To hand off to DiMarco is basically a loss of down. It made no sense. Edited October 2, 2017 by GunnerBill
Kelly the Dog Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 I don't think that is clear at all. I think it is certainly arguable that was the case, but I saw it differently. They were probably right not to overturn because there was no clear evidence it was a 50/50 call but whether he controlled it is still a subjective point. I think he did still control it actually and we got a bit of a break. No that I am complaining or taking anything away from our win. There was only one angle of the four or so they showed that proved it was a fumble. The one from behind that showed Jerry Hughes hitting the ball. There is undeniable air between the ball and his hand as the ball moves out of his hand and turns slightly. Then he pushes it rather than throws it forward when he gets his hand back on it.
GunnerBill Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 There was only one angle of the four or so they showed that proved it was a fumble. The one from behind that showed Jerry Hughes hitting the ball. There is undeniable air between the ball and his hand as the ball moves out of his hand and turns slightly. Then he pushes it rather than throws it forward when he gets his hand back on it. Hmmm. Not sure I saw that but happy to look at it again.
ganesh Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 That is just flat false. It's inarguable Hughes hit the ball before his arm was going forward. That wasn't even an issue. The only issue was did he have control of the ball when his arm started going forward, and he didn't. He just pushed it forward. It would have been the same if it were below his waste and he didn't have full control and just shoveled it forward. That was clearly the right call after seeing there or four angles of it. On the Hyde interception you just don't know the rules. It's okay if it hits the ground. It's still a catch if it totally smacks against the ground as long as you have two hands and control of it, which he did. The ball didn't bounce up when it hit the ground so it is a catch. The commentators also did make one comment. Both time the referee did not make the statement that "Replays confirmed the play".....They made the comment that the folks in NY just did not find enough evidence to overturn the call on the field.
Not at the table Karlos Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 I watched the fumble as slow as I could on the nfl app highlights. When Hughes hit Ryan's arm it looks like the only thing keeping the ball in his hand is his thumb. The top four fingers slide down the ball then he gets a finger on the ball as his arm is moving forward. I don't think it's clear enough to overturn either way but IMO it was a fumble followed by Ryan pushing it upfield
blargo Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 This was a game that the Rex coached team would lose. They would make it close and find a way to lose. It was great seeing that they are finding ways to win. Lack of turnovers is one thing, but how many dumb penalties have we had this year? How many pre-snap? A few not many and that helps the team. If we can continue this and get more drives like that 3rd Q beginning of the 4th where we took over 11 minutes off the clock we will win more than we lose. Now finish the drive!!!!
Bill Murray Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Not to turn this into another TT dominated thread, but worth reiterating three of your points: 1) Ryan threw 40 times and lost (to the TT doesnt throw for 300 yards crew) 2) Matt Ryan left plays on the field (to the TT is the only QB in the league that misses throws) and 3) agree if TT threw that 4th down pass for the game people would be going nuts Also, McD said on the 4th and goal they lined up to see if they got a certain look. If they did, they would have run a play for the TD, if they didnt, they would take the -5yds and kick. That is smart, free option. They didnt get the look they wanted, so they kicked.
Big C Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 If Ryan regained possession of the ball, it would have looked more like a throw coming out of his hand. It was wobbly and just plopped down. Side note, Virgil, the word is spelled "parity."
Pete Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Maybe the cigarette smoking man finally died and the conspiracy is over I have that x-files sample on my music shuffle
Alphadawg7 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 White td was questionable. If it's a fumble how long does he have to possess the ball after? I probably would have called that incomplete. I thought the hyde pick was fine. He had both hands on it before it hit the ground (watch the slo-mo) and it didn't move at all when the tip hit the ground. The main issue with that play was the ANNOUNCERS of the game. They kept falsely stating that Ryan maintained control through the forward motion which was absolutely not correct. The ball came loose on the way back and he had no real control of the ball moving forward and literally just pushed his hand through the ball to shove it forward. To me, this is 100% why the call was not reversed. Don't get me wrong, I understand it was a close call, but it was ruled a fumble on the field and to overturn it there MUST be conclusive evidence to do so. And the only thing that was 100% confirmable is that the ball came loose while the arm was going backward and I saw no evidence of him regaining full control of the ball and then making a forward pass. In regards to other comments about the refs and the calls...A lot of people have said we got calls to go "our way", however I think the better phrasing is the refs finally got the calls right. Just because they were in our favor doesn't mean the refs got them wrong. Were there close calls, absolutely, but in each case the refs made the correct decision. Even the one people think didn't go our way, the long play down the side line from Coleman was the right call by the refs. I didn't see anything in the replay that was conclusive to warrant an over turn.
Kelly the Dog Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 The main issue with that play was the ANNOUNCERS of the game. They kept falsely stating that Ryan maintained control through the forward motion which was absolutely not correct. The ball came loose on the way back and he had no real control of the ball moving forward and literally just pushed his hand through the ball to shove it forward. To me, this is 100% why the call was not reversed. Don't get me wrong, I understand it was a close call, but it was ruled a fumble on the field and to overturn it there MUST be conclusive evidence to do so. And the only thing that was 100% confirmable is that the ball came loose while the arm was going backward and I saw no evidence of him regaining full control of the ball and then making a forward pass. In regards to other comments about the refs and the calls...A lot of people have said we got calls to go "our way", however I think the better phrasing is the refs finally got the calls right. Just because they were in our favor doesn't mean the refs got them wrong. Were there close calls, absolutely, but in each case the refs made the correct decision. Even the one people think didn't go our way, the long play down the side line from Coleman was the right call by the refs. I didn't see anything in the replay that was conclusive to warrant an over turn. Yes to all of that. Plus, on the Tre White fumble there were four or five looks at it. Most of them looked like he may have had possession when he threw. The one from behind, however, was the only one that showed it clearly. If you didn't look closely that that one out of four or five looks you could argue either way. If you did look clearly at the one look, it was a definitive answer. Fumble. No question about it.
blargo Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 The main issue with that play was the ANNOUNCERS of the game. They kept falsely stating that Ryan maintained control through the forward motion which was absolutely not correct. The ball came loose on the way back and he had no real control of the ball moving forward and literally just pushed his hand through the ball to shove it forward. To me, this is 100% why the call was not reversed. Don't get me wrong, I understand it was a close call, but it was ruled a fumble on the field and to overturn it there MUST be conclusive evidence to do so. And the only thing that was 100% confirmable is that the ball came loose while the arm was going backward and I saw no evidence of him regaining full control of the ball and then making a forward pass. In regards to other comments about the refs and the calls...A lot of people have said we got calls to go "our way", however I think the better phrasing is the refs finally got the calls right. Just because they were in our favor doesn't mean the refs got them wrong. Were there close calls, absolutely, but in each case the refs made the correct decision. Even the one people think didn't go our way, the long play down the side line from Coleman was the right call by the refs. I didn't see anything in the replay that was conclusive to warrant an over turn. After seeing the replay so many times I agree with your assessment. If the ball came out in a spiral it would have been overturned, but it came out like he did not have a grip on the ball.
ksm27 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 While I'm certainly happy with the way the Ryan fumble/White touchdown worked out, I'm always uncomfortable with the interaction between the way these plays are treated on the field, and the application of the review standards. Understandably, refs are reluctant to be too quick to blow the whistle in these scenarios so that they can let the play completely finish. In my opinion, this creates a confirmatory bias on the part of the refs to make their "call on the field" match up with the outcome that resulted from not having blown the whistle (in this case, TD Buffalo). Then you're suddenly in a situation where the call will stand without conclusive evidence to the contrary. I don't know how to fix this. Sure, you do see instances where they let the play completely finish and then decide that the call on the field is an incomplete pass, but I don't think it happens as much as it probably should. Also, it puts the refs in a situation where they're talking about a play that's now 60+ seconds old and trying to decide what happened in a split second, bang-bang moment. I don't know what the right answer is, but sometimes I think we need to let the refs do the job they were trained for, and see a play take place in real time and actually react with a definitive whistle. Or just give greater deference to the booth review.
Houston's #1 Bills Fan Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Thrilled with win but agree on Tolbert. He is just not dynamic. If Shady is out for any extended period of game, we're in big trouble with Tolbert and Dimarco. I have to agree. There was a particular 3rd and 17ish play and they handoff to Tolbert. I'm, but he ain't gonna get 17 yards. That was a give up the down and possession play and pissed me off. At least fake handing off. Flea flicker. Off around. Something other than a straight up the gut run play with a guy that isn't that fast. I'd rather have Banyard trying.
Augie Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 See I don't think it was. I think it wobbled in his hand but I don't think it was coming loose. He still had possession in my opinion. Ultimately I think it is subjective and I can see why someone might look at that wobble and say that does not constitute control. I think they were probably right to stay with how it was called on the field, but had it been called incomplete on the field no way it would have been overturned on review it was simply too close of a call whichever way they called it. I think that's exactly right, but I'm not apologizing. We've been on the wrong side of that deal plenty of times! Falcon's fans do not see this the same way I do....
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