wakingfane Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 I support the players' choice to respectfully use the national anthem as their moment to make a statement. I agree with JK that Shady was disrespectful to the flag. I DO NOT see the players kneeling and allowing somber consideration to a National issue as disrespectful. Actions we agree AND disagree with are conducted under our flag and under the protection and empowerment provided by the government that flag represents. Yes it represents the people but it more closely represents the government: 50 States United in a Federal system. So yeah, using the flag for justice and freedom as well as consolidated power and authority is what happens every day all across this Country. Most of the players are making a serious effort to be part of that. Shady's choice was DUMB AT BEST No responses?? Isn't this the reasonable viewpoint for anyone who wants to take this stuff seriously? No one American or group of Americans OWNS the flag or free speech. Or are the only hot takes the EXTREMES of one side or the other... I can understand the people who say it's all a joke, so I don't care what Shady wants to do. But if you take the issues seriously, how can you not accept both sides and move on? Or... Are we so entertained by arguing over it that we keep beating each other over the head with rhetorical bats until we are senseless exhausted, even though we might actually be ready to live and let live. None of that, Not on Twitter. It makes me nauseous. Sports please.
Elite Poster Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 Now being reported Kelly was on field yelling at players during game who knelt. What's the distraction again?
stony Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 A few thoughts: 1. I don't agree with Kaepernick's thesis but fully support his right to express his opinion and his right to protest, as I respect the right for anyone to protest whether it be fellow NFL players or Jim Kelly or Shady or skin head Neo-Nazis. I don't have to agree with your view or how you do it (I don't like what Shady did) but I'd hate even more being in a society where you can't protest at all. 2. The flag to me represents not just the military but our country and its values. And the key value is the freedom and rights we have guaranteed under the Constitution. If the flag stands for anything it stands for those rights. I have read enough pro and con comments from ex-military to know there is no universal belief by the military. So I think the idea that the military is being specifically disrespected is not well informed, as has been pointed out by the players taking the action. 3. I will always stand, take my hat off, and put my hand in my chest when the anthem is played. But I'm hypocritical because I don't do that in private. And if I see a veteran I will always thank him for serving. Because his or her service lets me enjoy the freedoms I and others have. Including the freedom to stand for the anthem or not. 4. I respect having the courage to take a stand at personal cost. I think Kaepernick is way off base but he has the courage of his convictions. I applaud the courage of Villenueva not only for his service but for being the only Steeler to step out for the anthem yesterday. 5. Our rights do not come with a dollar sign; they are guaranteed by the constitution. Football players have as much right to protest as did Rosa Parks. So spare me the stuff about why millionaire football players should just shut up and play. 6. Owners need to decide what they want their employees to do. The vast majority apparently think the players should express their views through this form of peaceful protest. I'd rather the owners restrict these protests by keeping teams in the locker room during the anthem, and by making sure some of their profits are used to help their regions deal with issues being debated (and some profits are). And if owners decide they want their players to stand during the anthem since that would be a job related function, then players should comply or look for other employment. Such are the perks of ownership 6. The president? He simply does not understand our constitution and what freedoms are within, nor does he understand the role of the president. I want to see some of his proposals on infrastructure, tax policy and trade enacted. But I don't need a guy who has mistreated women, veterans, minorities, gay and lesbian individuals, and anyone he happens not to like in the moment lecturing me or anyone on values. He forfeited any credibility on values or morality years ago. Nice post.
Elite Poster Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 A few thoughts: 1. I don't agree with Kaepernick's thesis but fully support his right to express his opinion and his right to protest, as I respect the right for anyone to protest whether it be fellow NFL players or Jim Kelly or Shady or skin head Neo-Nazis. I don't have to agree with your view or how you do it (I don't like what Shady did) but I'd hate even more being in a society where you can't protest at all. 2. The flag to me represents not just the military but our country and its values. And the key value is the freedom and rights we have guaranteed under the Constitution. If the flag stands for anything it stands for those rights. I have read enough pro and con comments from ex-military to know there is no universal belief by the military. So I think the idea that the military is being specifically disrespected is not well informed, as has been pointed out by the players taking the action. 3. I will always stand, take my hat off, and put my hand in my chest when the anthem is played. But I'm hypocritical because I don't do that in private. And if I see a veteran I will always thank him for serving. Because his or her service lets me enjoy the freedoms I and others have. Including the freedom to stand for the anthem or not. 4. I respect having the courage to take a stand at personal cost. I think Kaepernick is way off base but he has the courage of his convictions. I applaud the courage of Villenueva not only for his service but for being the only Steeler to step out for the anthem yesterday. 5. Our rights do not come with a dollar sign; they are guaranteed by the constitution. Football players have as much right to protest as did Rosa Parks. So spare me the stuff about why millionaire football players should just shut up and play. 6. Owners need to decide what they want their employees to do. The vast majority apparently think the players should express their views through this form of peaceful protest. I'd rather the owners restrict these protests by keeping teams in the locker room during the anthem, and by making sure some of their profits are used to help their regions deal with issues being debated (and some profits are). And if owners decide they want their players to stand during the anthem since that would be a job related function, then players should comply or look for other employment. Such are the perks of ownership 6. The president? He simply does not understand our constitution and what freedoms are within, nor does he understand the role of the president. I want to see some of his proposals on infrastructure, tax policy and trade enacted. But I don't need a guy who has mistreated women, veterans, minorities, gay and lesbian individuals, and anyone he happens not to like in the moment lecturing me or anyone on values. He forfeited any credibility on values or morality years ago. This is me to a tee
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 Now being reported Kelly was on field yelling at players during game who knelt. What's the distraction again? not cool Jimbo, not cool at all.
HappyDays Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 Now being reported Kelly was on field yelling at players during game who knelt. What's the distraction again? Link? Not doubting you just want to read the article.
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 A few thoughts: 1. I don't agree with Kaepernick's thesis but fully support his right to express his opinion and his right to protest, as I respect the right for anyone to protest whether it be fellow NFL players or Jim Kelly or Shady or skin head Neo-Nazis. I don't have to agree with your view or how you do it (I don't like what Shady did) but I'd hate even more being in a society where you can't protest at all. 2. The flag to me represents not just the military but our country and its values. And the key value is the freedom and rights we have guaranteed under the Constitution. If the flag stands for anything it stands for those rights. I have read enough pro and con comments from ex-military to know there is no universal belief by the military. So I think the idea that the military is being specifically disrespected is not well informed, as has been pointed out by the players taking the action. 3. I will always stand, take my hat off, and put my hand in my chest when the anthem is played. But I'm hypocritical because I don't do that in private. And if I see a veteran I will always thank him for serving. Because his or her service lets me enjoy the freedoms I and others have. Including the freedom to stand for the anthem or not. 4. I respect having the courage to take a stand at personal cost. I think Kaepernick is way off base but he has the courage of his convictions. I applaud the courage of Villenueva not only for his service but for being the only Steeler to step out for the anthem yesterday. 5. Our rights do not come with a dollar sign; they are guaranteed by the constitution. Football players have as much right to protest as did Rosa Parks. So spare me the stuff about why millionaire football players should just shut up and play. 6. Owners need to decide what they want their employees to do. The vast majority apparently think the players should express their views through this form of peaceful protest. I'd rather the owners restrict these protests by keeping teams in the locker room during the anthem, and by making sure some of their profits are used to help their regions deal with issues being debated (and some profits are). And if owners decide they want their players to stand during the anthem since that would be a job related function, then players should comply or look for other employment. Such are the perks of ownership 6. The president? He simply does not understand our constitution and what freedoms are within, nor does he understand the role of the president. I want to see some of his proposals on infrastructure, tax policy and trade enacted. But I don't need a guy who has mistreated women, veterans, minorities, gay and lesbian individuals, and anyone he happens not to like in the moment lecturing me or anyone on values. He forfeited any credibility on values or morality years ago. good post indy.
Bill_with_it Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 No one and I repeat no one, has ever died for a flag. They may have died for freedom, but that is also the right to burn flags if you want to. -Bill Hicks This is absolutely not true. I have pals that have died for the flag. You and Bill Hicks know nothing about what the flag is or isnt to the military.
Kelly the Dog Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 This is absolutely not true. I have pals that have died for the flag. You and Bill Hicks know nothing about what the flag is or isnt to the military. What does the flag mean to you. Please articulate. Thanks.
Bill_with_it Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 What does the flag mean to you. Please articulate. Thanks.words cant do it justice.
Elite Poster Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 Link? Not doubting you just want to read the article. Media guys on Twitter saying after anthem finished and guys were meeting with position groups before kickoff Jim was yelling at certain guys.
Kelly the Dog Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 words cant do it justice.So in other words, nothing? Let's try this, is there a better single word to describe what you honestly think the flag means to you than, say, "freedom?" Or is there a better one.
Lurker Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 This is absolutely not true. I have pals that have died for the flag. You and Bill Hicks know nothing about what the flag is or isnt to the military. And I've seen comments from military vet's who say something altogether different. How do you reconcile that? Do all servicemen and women have the same views or not? I'm curious and would appreciate hearing more on this...
billsfan1959 Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 Well, many of those opposed to the protesters (including the commander-in-chief, who did everything in his and his family's power to avoid serving active duty in the military) are not just voicing displeasure. They are calling for the protesters to be fired and telling them they should leave the country or worse. So, enough of the moral equivalency argument... Nobody said anything about moral equivalency. It is called freedom of speech - Even if you find it morally reprehensible. By the way, neither side is void of questionably moral expressions.
DC Tom Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 This is absolutely not true. I have pals that have died for the flag. You and Bill Hicks know nothing about what the flag is or isnt to the military. Their oath of service was to the Constitution, not the flag.
Lurker Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 Their oath of service was to the Constitution, not the flag. Yep...http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/swearing-in-for-military-service.html The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted): "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." The Oath of Office (for officers): "I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the _____ (Military Branch) of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."
NoSaint Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 The same way I get all my news: from reading TSW. We're in complete agreement here. Complete agreement. Like I said, if you take them out of the equation, no one actually cares about someone kneeling during the anthem. I sure the hell don't care about it. I wouldn't care if OBJ was doing his dog piss move on a flag. It's one of the greatest features of our country. But the sports writers need to shove it in everyone's face. Over and over and over. And we keep watching it when we need to turn it off and tell them all to STFU and play the games. I don't mind the discussion here or I wouldn't take part in it. Do you see me posting in every thread? No. Why? Because I ignore topics that bore me. I just prefer they start the games the way they always did...at kickoff. But you feel free to make whatever ridiculous point you think you're making. I was mostly joshing with you on that one- it's just a dynamic in this I find a little amusing. It's a silent protest during a pregame event. They could stand, sit, stretch, or do cartwheels and you aren't seeing the action any later really. And most of the coverage of it is extremely optional to consume outside a couple brief comments any given week (this week excluded when it was pressed to the forefront based on the showdown trump created with his comments).
Bill_with_it Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 So in other words, nothing? Let's try this, is there a better single word to describe what you honestly think the flag means to you than, say, "freedom?" Or is there a better one. You can act immature and like you want to use words or put them in my mouth and you would be wrong. You have no clue the sacrifices I have made for that flag and this country. Dont push it. Their oath of service was to the Constitution, not the flag. You are correct. That changes nothing.
DC Tom Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 You are correct. That changes nothing. If they were fighting for the flag, they didn't understand their oath very well, did they?
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