Whoa: A. Hernandez most severe case of CTE ever

[mbossman2]

 

I think CTE will definitely have an affect.

 

Boxing's biggest problem is they have too many federations/belts, don't market their fighters well and don't have balanced fight cards.

 

one of boxing's fundamental problem is that there aren't many young people entering into the field. remember when the "Y" and other youth sports facilities used to have boxing programs? They don't exist any more and once that happened, boxing started its long steady decline. MMA will under go the same downward spiral (15 to 20 years from now) when the current crop of fighters begin to exhibit the similar physical/degenerative symptoms.

 

The NFL (and football in general) better get a unified strategy in place to address this as they are very close to facing a similar situation to what they faced back in 1905 when Theodore Roosevelt pushed for significant changes to the rules (under the implied threat of "or else"). This time the "or else" won't be implied.

[Royale with Cheese]

 

one of boxing's fundamental problem is that there aren't many young people entering into the field. remember when the "Y" and other youth sports facilities used to have boxing programs? They don't exist any more and once that happened, boxing started its long steady decline. MMA will under go the same downward spiral (15 to 20 years from now) when the current crop of fighters begin to exhibit the similar physical/degenerative symptoms.

 

The NFL (and football in general) better get a unified strategy in place to address this as they are very close to facing a similar situation to what they faced back in 1905 when Theodore Roosevelt pushed for significant changes to the rules (under the implied threat of "or else"). This time the "or else" won't be implied.

 

I respectfully disagree.

MMA is growing. I trained at 3 different schools when I was younger...I just stopped 3 years ago because I had a kid and wanted to focus my time on him.

 

Each gym I was at increased in the number of members each year. The last gym I was at had to move to a much bigger facility because they needed it....especially the kids program. MMA isn't new, it's just new in the US. It was much more of a violent sport in the 80's/90's in other countries. It was bare knuckle, you can kick a guy that was down, you could elbow strike 12 to 6 etc... The new rules have made it safer. Traditional martial arts in the US is declining and probably will continue but MMA is not IMO.

 

I can't speak about boxing because I never been in a standard boxing gym. My gym had a boxing coach and program and they were on the opposite side. I do know boxing has a lot of good fighters but they are terrible marketing them. They don't fill cards with big names like the UFC. You recognize the main event in boxing and all the prelims you don't really know. UFC generally has multiple fights with well known names. It attracts viewers and attracts people wanting to do it....that's why I got started.

 

I saw the growth in LA, Phoenix and Atlanta.

 

I have friends that fight and the amount of events just in the southeast have increased a lot. I get tagged on social media from fight promoters and fights on the regular now. It's one of the fastest growing sports in the world and it's going to continue to grow. They are having a combination of boxing matches and MMA fights in my area on the same card because they have the fighters for it.

 

1905 was a much, much different era.

[ndirish1978]

I feel like this is like one of those weird, oddly specific baseball stats: Most-CTE-by-a-27-year-old-in-that-we've-measured-CTE-in-approximately-2-people-and-his-was-worse-than-the-other-guy's.

[BillsFan130]

I agree with the people who are saying that CTE will push the NFL down the same path as boxing.

 

Why?

- paying the players who have CTE for their long term care for CTE related dementia will dramatically damage the NFLs as viable business concern

- the number kids playing the game will begin to shrink (seriously ask yourself: with the accumulating evidence linking football, or for that fact any high impact contact sport, would you let your kid play football knowing that the likelihood of long term brain injury is much higher playing football vs, say, basketball?)

Hmm I'm not too sure about that. I think football will never run out of people wanting to play, even at a young age. For every 1 person who doesn't want to play in the NFL, there will be thousands who will want to take his spot. As long as fans like us keep watching them, the NFL will always be dominate

[Thurman#1]

 

Or the Coke he snorted.

 

Coke causes it too.

 

 

 

The Mayo Clinic doesn't list anything but head trauma as a cause. Nor does the Boston University CTE Center.

 

Where are you getting this information, because I can't find it anywhere but your post.

I feel like this is like one of those weird, oddly specific baseball stats: Most-CTE-by-a-27-year-old-in-that-we've-measured-CTE-in-approximately-2-people-and-his-was-worse-than-the-other-guy's.

 

 

 

Again, you guys are ignoring what comes next ... "The level of damage [in Hernandez] was said to be similar to that seen in football players with a median age of 67." And there are plenty of those.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Thurman#1

[What a Tuel]

How does a fiance have any grounds to sue the Patriots? Is it on his behalf? She wasn't legally married so can she even do that? I don't understand.

 

Can I start suing on behalf of dead people?

 

(Edit I know anyone can sue, it is just a matter of it being thrown out)

Edited September 22, 2017 by What a Tuel

[DC Tom]

Again, you guys are ignoring what comes next ... "The level of damage [in Hernandez] was said to be similar to that seen in football players with a median age of 67." And there are plenty of those.

 

The sample you're referencing here actually includes all instances of CTE in pro football players, grades I to IV. The statement you're quoting is equivalent to "He had CTE."

 

Couldn't find the median age of football players with grade III or IV CTE. But the paper's available online from JAMA, if you want to look.

[Thurman#1]

 

I respectfully disagree.

MMA is growing. I trained at 3 different schools when I was younger...I just stopped 3 years ago because I had a kid and wanted to focus my time on him.

 

Each gym I was at increased in the number of members each year. The last gym I was at had to move to a much bigger facility because they needed it....especially the kids program. MMA isn't new, it's just new in the US. It was much more of a violent sport in the 80's/90's in other countries. It was bare knuckle, you can kick a guy that was down, you could elbow strike 12 to 6 etc... The new rules have made it safer. Traditional martial arts in the US is declining and probably will continue but MMA is not IMO.

 

 

 

Royale, what the guy you're replying to said was that boxing gyms are getting less popular right now. Which is unarguable. He didn't say that MMA gyms are getting less popular now. They obviously aren't, but he said that he thinks they will in 15 or 20 years if guys start becoming punch-drunk. Which is a very reasonable guess.

 

 

 

 

And as for football's youth participation numbers ...

 

http://www.vocativ.com/298019/youth-football-participation-is-plummeting/

 

 

 

 

 

1905 was a much, much different era.

 

 

 

Sure, 1905 was a different era. They're all different, except in one thing, which is that sports, like exercise trends, writing styles, trends in fighting, meditation and really every single specific human endeavor ... change. Change is eternal, even though at any given moment people are wired to think things will continue as they are.

 

Things get popular, peak and disappear. That's the way the world works. And at the time, in all those different eras, the sport at the peak looks like it will last forever, until it slowly goes away. Football will disappear. It's just a matter of when. It's simply unlikely to last more than, say, a hundred years at the peak. Boxing was probably the number one sport in the early 20th century and now it's not, and it's slowly fading away under many pressures, including the likelihood of becoming punch-drunk if you do it for a long time, though it also includes new sports like MMA. And the rise of football.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Thurman#1

[DC Tom]

How does a fiance have any grounds to sue the Patriots? Is it on his behalf? She wasn't legally married so can she even do that? I don't understand.

 

Can I start suing on behalf of dead people?

 

(Edit I know anyone can sue, it is just a matter of it being thrown out)

 

Find the right lawyer, and you can sue for anything.

 

I have an aunt that was banned from filing lawsuits in Maine after she filed something like 350.

[row_33]

he was truly one of the worst cases of something ever

[Royale with Cheese]

 

 

 

Royale, what the guy you're replying to said was that boxing gyms are getting less popular right now. Which is unarguable. He didn't say that MMA gyms are getting less popular now. They obviously aren't, but he said that he thinks they will in 15 or 20 years if guys start becoming punch-drunk. Which is a very reasonable guess.

 

 

 

 

And as for football's youth participation numbers ...

 

http://www.vocativ.com/298019/youth-football-participation-is-plummeting/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, 1905 was a different era. They're all different, except in one thing, which is that sports, like exercise trends, writing styles, trends in fighting, meditation and really every single specific human endeavor ... change. Change is eternal, even though at any given moment people are wired to think things will continue as they are.

 

Things get popular, peak and disappear. That's the way the world works. And at the time, in all those different eras, the sport at the peak looks like it will last forever, until it slowly goes away. Football will disappear. It's just a matter of when. It's simply unlikely to last more than, say, a hundred years at the peak. Boxing was probably the number one sport in the early 20th century and now it's not, and it's slowly fading away under many pressures, including the likelihood of becoming punch-drunk if you do it for a long time, though it also includes new sports like MMA. And the rise of football.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry to pick out one such tiny are of your post to reply to, Royale.

 

Sure, 1905 was a different era. They're all different, except in one thing, which is that sports, like exercise trends, writing styles, trends in fighting, meditation and really every single specific human endeavor ... change. Change is eternal, even though at any given moment people are wired to think things will continue as they are.

 

Things get popular, peak and disappear. That's the way the world works. And at the time, in all those different eras, the sport at the peak looks like it will last forever, until it slowly goes away. Football will disappear. It's just a matter of when. It's simply unlikely to last more than, say, a hundred years at the peak. Boxing was probably the number one sport in the early 20th century and now it's not, and it's slowly fading away under many pressures, including the likelihood of becoming punch-drunk if you do it for a long time, though it also includes new sports like MMA. And the rise of football.

 

 

 

 

Also, what the guy you're replying to said was that boxing gyms are getting less popular right now. Which is unarguable. He didn't say that MMA gyms are getting less popular now, but that he thinks they will in 15 or 20 years if guys start becoming punch-drunk. Which is a very reasonable guess.

 

 

 

 

And as for football's youth participation numbers ...

 

http://www.vocativ.com/298019/youth-football-participation-is-plummeting/

 

Thurman,

I forgot to add that MMA gyms typically have boxing programs. While singular, stand alone boxing gyms might be dying, the sport isn't dying in MMA schools.

Most of the pure boxers and my last 3 gyms didn't cross train, they stuck with boxing. For whatever reason, the didn't like to fight on the ground.

 

I saw that link but I also saw this. You might have seen a decline in your area but I haven't seen it in the south. I've got a lot of friends who coach in high school and their youth programs are still full and their football camps still fill out. But this doesn't speak with every region.

 

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/15210245/slight-one-year-increase-number-youth-playing-football-data-shows

 

When I said different era, the game was way too brutal back then. The game was played like savages.

Players were dying on the field or soon after. Not saying CTE isn't a concern, it absolutely is but the way they played back then, it needed a very quick adjustment. You can't have fans watching a game and seeing a player hemorrhaging to death.

 

 

 

Football at the time was particularly dangerous and violent. In 1905 alone, at least 18 people died and more than 150 were injured playing football. According to the Washington Post, at least 45 football players died from 1900 to October 1905, many from internal injuries, broken necks, concussions or broken backs.

 

[Buffalo716]

Thurman,

I forgot to add that MMA gyms typically have boxing programs. While singular, stand alone boxing gyms might be dying, the sport isn't dying in MMA schools.

Most of the pure boxers and my last 3 gyms didn't cross train, they stuck with boxing. For whatever reason, the didn't like to fight on the ground.

 

I saw that link but I also saw this. You might have seen a decline in your area but I haven't seen it in the south. I've got a lot of friends who coach in high school and their youth programs are still full and their football camps still fill out. But this doesn't speak with every region.

 

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/15210245/slight-one-year-increase-number-youth-playing-football-data-shows

 

When I said different era, the game was way too brutal back then. The game was played like savages.

Players were dying on the field or soon after. Not saying CTE isn't a concern, it absolutely is but the way they played back then, it needed a very quick adjustment. You can't have fans watching a game and seeing a player hemorrhaging to death.

 

Besides football , I grew up around boxing and then cross trained in MMA. I love both but I am definitely a boxing purest. I really believe the younger generation is very excited about the state of MMA and boxing

 

Lot of people still training in gyms and yes the old school boxers typically like to stick to pugilism

[Thurman#1]

 

The sample you're referencing here actually includes all instances of CTE in pro football players, grades I to IV. The statement you're quoting is equivalent to "He had CTE."

 

Couldn't find the median age of football players with grade III or IV CTE. But the paper's available online from JAMA, if you want to look.

 

 

 

I'm not referencing it. The article is.

 

Folks here are questioning whether it means anything that he had the worst level of damage for a 27 year old that they'd ever seen. And since the symptoms often manifest over time, they tend to get worse as people age.

 

I think it's you making an unwarranted assumption here. Yeah, the whole sample contains all levels of CTE. But that doesn't mean that the level of damage of 67 year olds is the same as the median level of damage from the whole sample. Not unless it specifically says so somewhere.

 

They're saying that of the entire sample, the median age of death is 66 and the average age of death is 67. Saying that "The level of damage [in Hernandez] was said to be similar to that seen in football players with a median age of 67," is saying a lot, as is saying that he had Level 3, severe damage, at that young age.

 

Find the right lawyer, and you can sue for anything.

 

I have an aunt that was banned from filing lawsuits in Maine after she filed something like 350.

 

 

 

Heh heh.

 

True that you can sue for anything. Also true that sometimes lawsuits are winners. Plenty aren't, but some are. This is a threat the NFL will take very very seriously.

[Royale with Cheese]

Besides football , I grew up around boxing and then cross trained in MMA. I love both but I am definitely a boxing purest. I really believe the younger generation is very excited about the state of MMA and boxing

 

Lot of people still training in gyms and yes the old school boxers typically like to stick to pugilism

 

I love both as well but lean towards the UFC because it's one belt. Boxing has so many different ones and sometimes it takes forever for the best to fight. Also you never get stacked cards in boxing. You have the main event and that's really it. No one cares about the other PPV fights.

 

Many times in the UFC, the fights before the main event are the ones I want to see more. It's worth the $60 dollar pay per view because I'm seeing multiple good fights.

Although Dana White is rubbing me the wrong way with the middleweight. I can't believe he's letting Bisping skirt another top MW. His first title defense was against a 47 year old Dan Henderson who wasn't even top 10 anymore? Now GSP? I get it that Whitaker is hurt but it should be the next man up like Romero or Rockhold...not a former welter weight who hasn't fought in 4 years.

[DC Tom]

 

I think it's you making an unwarranted assumption here. Yeah, the whole sample contains all levels of CTE. But that doesn't mean that the level of damage of 67 year olds is the same as the median level of damage from the whole sample. Not unless it specifically says so somewhere.

 

I'm not making an assumption. I read the study. The median sample age was 67 at time of death, and 110 of 111 of that sample had CTE of any severity. 84% had grade III or IV severity, but those weren't classified by age that I could find.

 

You cannot say "Hernandez had CTE as bad as a 67-year old" based on that. You can't even state with certainty that he's an outlier (since it's a median - if you have 56 67 year olds and 55 20 year olds in a sample, the median is still 67. Of course their distribution wasn't that warped...but using a median as a measure on its own is dangerous. You need to know the sample distribution to give it any meaning.)

 

Which is why the article's statement reduces to "He had CTE." It's typically ****ty science writing by either a writer who doesn't know ****, or an editor who doesn't know **** and cut the writer's accurate explanation to fit an arbitrary word count.

[Buffalo716]

I love both as well but lean towards the UFC because it's one belt. Boxing has so many different ones and sometimes it takes forever for the best to fight. Also you never get stacked cards in boxing. You have the main event and that's really it. No one cares about the other PPV fights.

 

Many times in the UFC, the fights before the main event are the ones I want to see more. It's worth the $60 dollar pay per view because I'm seeing multiple good fights.

Although Dana White is rubbing me the wrong way with the middleweight. I can't believe he's letting Bisping skirt another top MW. His first title defense was against a 47 year old Dan Henderson who wasn't even top 10 anymore? Now GSP? I get it that Whitaker is hurt but it should be the next man up like Romero or Rockhold...not a former welter weight who hasn't fought in 4 years.

200% agree

 

UFC usually has stacked cards.

 

It's why I've been a fan for a long long time. I just miss some of my old favorites like Baby Jay Penn, the original UFC champion Royce Gracie , The iceman , GSP

[Thurman#1]

 

 

Thurman,

I forgot to add that MMA gyms typically have boxing programs. While singular, stand alone boxing gyms might be dying, the sport isn't dying in MMA schools.

Most of the pure boxers and my last 3 gyms didn't cross train, they stuck with boxing. For whatever reason, the didn't like to fight on the ground.

 

I saw that link but I also saw this. You might have seen a decline in your area but I haven't seen it in the south. I've got a lot of friends who coach in high school and their youth programs are still full and their football camps still fill out. But this doesn't speak with every region.

 

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/15210245/slight-one-year-increase-number-youth-playing-football-data-shows

 

When I said different era, the game was way too brutal back then. The game was played like savages.

Players were dying on the field or soon after. Not saying CTE isn't a concern, it absolutely is but the way they played back then, it needed a very quick adjustment. You can't have fans watching a game and seeing a player hemorrhaging to death.

 

 

 

Royale, if you read that football article you're referencing all the way through it's exactly what's referred to in my article. It's USA football trying to focus on a short one or two year slight increase while ignoring a nearly 25% decrease over the six or seven year period including that slight recent rise.

 

And that even over the one or two years when absolute numbers are going up, as a percentage of the US population the numbers have continued down.

 

I live in Japan personally, have for 24 years, so I can't speak for that period but the stats are clear. Since the CTE stats came out, there's a major downturn at youth levels.

 

Things go up and down. But over the long term plenty of sports pretty much disappear. Boxing and baseball owned America sixty years ago. Now they're way down from their highs. Go longer and you see much more change. They say basketball - worldwide - is the biggest youth sport. Stuff changes.

[DC Tom]

 

 

 

Royale, if you read that football article you're referencing all the way through it's exactly what's referred to in my article. It's USA football trying to focus on a short one or two year slight increase while ignoring a nearly 25% decrease over the six or seven year period including that slight recent rise.

 

And that even over the one or two years when absolute numbers are going up, as a percentage of the US population the numbers have continued down.

 

I live in Japan personally, have for 24 years, so I can't speak for that period but the stats are clear. Since the CTE stats came out, there's a major downturn at youth levels.

 

Things go up and down. But over the long term plenty of sports pretty much disappear. Boxing and baseball owned America sixty years ago. Now they're way down from their highs. Go longer and you see much more change. They say basketball - worldwide - is the biggest youth sport. Stuff changes.

 

Croquet used to be huge. And gladiatorial combat.

 

Everything ends eventually.

[Thurman#1]

 

I'm not making an assumption. I read the study. The median sample age was 67 at time of death, and 110 of 111 of that sample had CTE of any severity. 84% had grade III or IV severity, but those weren't classified by age that I could find.

 

You cannot say "Hernandez had CTE as bad as a 67-year old" based on that. You can't even state with certainty that he's an outlier (since it's a median - if you have 56 67 year olds and 55 20 year olds in a sample, the median is still 67. Of course their distribution wasn't that warped...but using a median as a measure on its own is dangerous. You need to know the sample distribution to give it any meaning.)

 

Which is why the article's statement reduces to "He had CTE." It's typically ****ty science writing by either a writer who doesn't know ****, or an editor who doesn't know **** and cut the writer's accurate explanation to fit an arbitrary word count.

 

 

Ah, I see what you're saying. Good point. Thanks for pointing that out.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Thurman#1

[Royale with Cheese]

 

 

 

Royale, if you read that football article you're referencing all the way through it's exactly what's referred to in my article. It's USA football trying to focus on a short one or two year slight increase while ignoring a nearly 25% decrease over the six or seven year period including that slight recent rise.

 

And that even over the one or two years when absolute numbers are going up, as a percentage of the US population the numbers have continued down.

 

I live in Japan personally, have for 24 years, so I can't speak for that period but the stats are clear. Since the CTE stats came out, there's a major downturn at youth levels.

 

Things go up and down. But over the long term plenty of sports pretty much disappear. Boxing and baseball owned America sixty years ago. Now they're way down from their highs. Go longer and you see much more change. They say basketball - worldwide - is the biggest youth sport. Stuff changes.

 

Good post...don't really have anything to add.

Football could very well be diluted in talent in the future because not all the best athletes are playing.

Maybe the only way to fix the CTE issue is to get smaller pads and not playing with helmets. I don't believe that rugby is experiencing the same issues because without a helmet, you can't lead with your head.

I've also heard that maybe soft helmets could fix it but who knows.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Royale with Cheese