Fan in Chicago Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I have never made the argument of diminishing Watkins's talent. But I understand why McDermott didn't want him on his roster. I'm starting to get the sense that the Rams have a better understanding as to why he wasn't in Buffalo's plans now that they have had an inside view of what he is as a player and as a teammate. Good post, John. McD's motivtions, if those, are myopic in nature. Watkins, even if underperforming his draft status, still would have more value to the Bills than on the Rams. That he is not producing well with the LAR does not imply that he would have similar numbers on the Bills. The reasons are just too thin ot justify getting rid of him this year. ZayJones, as most draft picks, was not a sure thing. He may take time to develop or he may be a bust. But Watkins was a sure thing and should have been kept this year when other options were woeful and low. A coach and GM should not be getting rid of every player who is not an ideal fit in their system. That is why it is best to transition out into a different system. I would stretch this arugument and say that we should have attempted to keep Robert Woods also. Watkins-Woods-Jones would have been a very good combo. Jones would be brought along into the system and if he was a hit, the Bills could part ways with Watkins in the next off season. I am also of the opinion that Boldin came on board just to be a mentor to Watkins while catching the occasional pass. At his stage of his career, he had nothing left to prove but he could point to how he pulled up Watkins to glory and then could walk off into the sunset. McD should have managed Watkins as a coach should and taken Boldin's assistance in trying to challenge him to his true potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 LOL! Ridiculous. Every team has busts, problem children, etc. Do you blame the Cheaters for Aaron Hernandez killing people? The real problem is that many of these kids don't view Buffalo as a place where they need to give 110%, figuring they'll ride out their rookie contracts and go to a big market afterwards. Twitter hate likely doesn't help matters but they'll get that, and more, elsewhere. I only wish more of them had the attitude Tre White has. Give it about 2.5 years and you'll be knocking him just in case he leaves too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 your poster always quality, but this is exceptional thank you Thank you. I still think that you are intermittently crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I felt it was a good move when Whaley made it. Coming out Sammy was felt to be a true elite talent. Not sure if it's the injuries or maybe an attitude, but I was sure wrong thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Thank you. I still think that you are intermittently crazy. than I have work to do. It amazes me that people get wrapped up in what I say. If I am not talking about football then no one should ever take me seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Good post, John. McD's motivtions, if those, are myopic in nature. Watkins, even if underperforming his draft status, still would have more value to the Bills than on the Rams. That he is not producing well with the LAR does not imply that he would have similar numbers on the Bills. The reasons are just too thin ot justify getting rid of him this year. ZayJones, as most draft picks, was not a sure thing. He may take time to develop or he may be a bust. But Watkins was a sure thing and should have been kept this year when other options were woeful and low. A coach and GM should not be getting rid of every player who is not an ideal fit in their system. That is why it is best to transition out into a different system. I would stretch this arugument and say that we should have attempted to keep Robert Woods also. Watkins-Woods-Jones would have been a very good combo. Jones would be brought along into the system and if he was a hit, the Bills could part ways with Watkins in the next off season. I am also of the opinion that Boldin came on board just to be a mentor to Watkins while catching the occasional pass. At his stage of his career, he had nothing left to prove but he could point to how he pulled up Watkins to glory and then could walk off into the sunset. McD should have managed Watkins as a coach should and taken Boldin's assistance in trying to challenge him to his true potential. Let's put things in perspective and try to understand what McDermott/Beane want to accomplish in their new undertaking. They didn't come to Buffalo to be an extension of the Whaley patchwork approach to yearly roster building. They have a blue print and framework in which their individual transactions fall within. Keeping that reality in mind it has to be remembered that this is a rebuilding process---the antithesis of how Whaley operated. McDermott is not being secretive about how he wants to build a roster and the type of player/person he wants. Talent is certainly a factor but so is how a player fits in with the unit. Some people such as Badol are mocking that approach while I don't. If done in a balanced way it works. Again, going back to the rebuilding issue it's not only about players per se but it is also about how the cap is distributed and balanced out within the roster. An expensive cover player such as Gilmore was dispatched (Whaley decision also) and was replaced with cheaper players. Darby, whose contract was due in another year and was going to be more costly, was replaced by a player, Gaines, from the LA deal. If you review this particular unit you are getting better production at a cheaper price. This is a classic example of the use and application of analytics. With respect to the Watkins deal if you put it in the context of how the wrestling coach wants to rebuild the roster from a cost and type of player/person he wants to work with this deal is very understandable. You don't have to agree with it but it makes sense under the new regime's paradigm. Where I clash with Badol and others is if you look at the Watkins deal from a one year standpoint the trade is certainly questionable. But if you look at it from how this new staff wants to construct a roster beyond the short term it makes a lot of sense. There was a lot of howling when Watkins was dealt. There is a lot less howling now that he has played some games in LA. My point is when you review some of these transactions within a longer time frame and wider perspective then there is not only a rationality behind it but wisdom behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I felt it was a good move when Whaley made it. Coming out Sammy was felt to be a true elite talent. Not sure if it's the injuries or maybe an attitude, but I was sure wrong thus far.this is difficult for me to remember because I remember it being a point where so many are now. I wanted to buy in and trust the process that we needed to make a bold move with a young new GM who was respected. That we needed a potential superstar. And I think I calmed myself down from criticisms to want to believe. But I remember thinking that a guy who made his career in the ACC catching more than half behind the LOS and flourishing on YAC has to be a joke. The ACC isn't the SEC or even big 10 on speed. There was no reason to believe this guy had what it takes to get the separation or truly even believe he had the ability to run a disciplined and full route tree. (Woods, to me, was a better prospect) Either way, I held out hope when I saw his attitude that he was just a young guy having fun and that it takes effort to get YAC. Then I saw little to no effort and a lot of immaturity and quickly lost interest in the player. But, looking back now it's so hard. It's hard to admit the last 4 years have really taken a toll. I haven't been the same since Gailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 than I have work to do. I believe in your potential and your ability to fulfill it. It amazes me that people get wrapped up in what I say. If I am not talking about football then [/b]no one should ever take me seriously.[/b] Don't worry, the people who know you don't. However, sometimes you get a little too edgy to the point where medications should be considered to contain the volcanic eruptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_with_it Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 On offense ranking their skill position players I would say that Watkins ranks maybe fifth behind Goff, Gurley, Kupp and Woods. Giving up a second round pick and a player indicates to me that they did want to lock him up. But now I'm sure their calculation has dramatically changed. I never suggested that the Rams are a well oiled machine. But what is apparent to me is that this team has taken a dramatic step forward under the leadership of their new HC and with the major improvement of their young qb who was overwhelmed in his rookie year. I have never compared Zay Jones to Watkins. You are creating one of your typical patented manufactured arguments to support your exaggerated claims about Watkins. First, two first round picks were invested in Watkins. Was that rich investment worth it? The obvious answer is no. Second, Watkins was a much more expensive player with his expectation of getting a bank vault level of contract. Is the production to cost ratio worth it for Buffalo or even LA? I would right now, no. You may be giving up on Zay Jones but I am not. It's not unusual for receivers to struggle in their first year. What I can say for sure is that the high expectation that Whaley had for Watkins didn't materialize in Buffalo and the expectations that the Rams had for Watkins isn't materializing in LA. I have never made the argument of diminishing Watkins's talent. But I understand why McDermott didn't want him on his roster. I'm starting to get the sense that the Rams have a better understanding as to why he wasn't in Buffalo's plans now that they have had an inside view of what he is as a player and as a teammate. This is truly fantastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Whatever you think about Watkins, remember that the NFL team with the #1 offense in points scored thought he was worth a second rounder and a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I felt it was a good move when Whaley made it. Coming out Sammy was felt to be a true elite talent. Not sure if it's the injuries or maybe an attitude, but I was sure wrong thus far. Watkins certainly was an elite talent coming out of college. He would be considered a top five talent in most drafts. The mistake that Whaley made was that he felt an elite receiver would prop up his flawed qb/qbs. In my view that was a backward approach to take. He should have had a qb on board who was capable of maximizing the talent of his costly receiver. Compare what happened in Buffalo to what the Falcons did? They had Matt Ryan on the roster and then used a boatload of picks to select Julio Jones. They had the qb in place to properly utilize the glorious talents of their new receiver. That's how it should be done! than I have work to do. I believe in your potential and your ability to fulfill it. It amazes me that people get wrapped up in what I say. If I am not talking about football then no one should ever take me seriously. Don't worry, the people who know you don't. However, sometimes you get a little too edgy to the point where medications should be considered to contain the volcanic eruptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 .....baffling....I would think Sammy's BEST option in a contract year would be to put up or shut up......he has yet to establish a solid pedigree in the NFL (yes, unfortunate injuries have derailed him), so he does NOT have the luxury of pointing to his "career to date stats" as a bargaining chip..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 JohnC. You criticize Whaley for thinking Sammy would have propped up EJ. Haven't theRams done the same thing with Goff? And EHJ looked better as a rookie compared to Goff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 LOL! Ridiculous. Every team has busts, problem children, etc. Do you blame the Cheaters for Aaron Hernandez killing people? The real problem is that many of these kids don't view Buffalo as a place where they need to give 110%, figuring they'll ride out their rookie contracts and go to a big market afterwards. Twitter hate likely doesn't help matters but they'll get that, and more, elsewhere. I only wish more of them had the attitude Tre White has. No, but I credit the Patriots for developing guys like Patrick Chung and Macolm Butler. Doc, you and I have been here for nearly a decade and I don't think we've ever agreed on anything, at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Give it about 2.5 years and you'll be knocking him just in case he leaves too If they let him walk, it's because he doesn't deserve to be (over) paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Are you giving up on him already? Tad premature don't you think? Eric Moulds didn't set the world on fire in his rookie year. It turned out that he was one of the better receivers the Bills have ever had. Writing him off so quickly makes little sense to me. Moulds didnt play because Marv didnt believe in starting rookies. It wasnt really his shortcomings. He should have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Whatever you think about Watkins, remember that the NFL team with the #1 offense in points scored thought he was worth a second rounder and a starter. More like the worst team in points scored last year thought he was worth a 2nd rounder and are finding out he's not. I'm sure they'd reconsider if they knew then what they know now. No, but I credit the Patriots for developing guys like Patrick Chung and Macolm Butler. Doc, you and I have been here for nearly a decade and I don't think we've ever agreed on anything, at all. The Bills have developed late-round talent as well. But Patrick Chung was a 2nd rounder. And I've been here since the place opened. So we disagree on that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 More like the worst team in points scored last year thought he was worth a 2nd rounder and are finding out he's not. I'm sure they'd reconsider if they knew then what they know now. Maybe, but he did have quite a bit of value coming off his 2016 season, which seems to be debated here. If they let him walk, it's because he doesn't deserve to be (over) paid. That's ridiculous reasoning. Everything the Bills do is automatically right. If they pay him, he's worth it. If they don't, he isn't. Why aren't we undefeated with McBeane batting 1.000 already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Maybe, but he did have quite a bit of value coming off his 2016 season, which seems to be debated here. That's ridiculous reasoning. Everything the Bills do is automatically right. If they pay him, he's worth it. If they don't, he isn't. Why aren't we undefeated with McBeane batting 1.000 already? His 2016 season? It was his worst one as a pro by far. His value was his potential. No not everything the Bills do is automatically right. And I gave a brief response instead of saying that every case is different and if White merits a big-money extension, the Bills will give it to him. I did not think that either Gilmore or Sammy deserved one and so far they're proving me right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 His 2016 season? It was his worst one as a pro by far. His value was his potential. No not everything the Bills do is automatically right. And I gave a brief response instead of saying that every case is different and if White merits a big-money extension, the Bills will give it to him. I did not think that either Gilmore or Sammy deserved one and so far they're proving me right. That was my point. Not many WR's who have "proven nothing" and are coming off multiple surgeries are worth second round picks and a starter. And fair enough. I thought you were saying if the Bills don't pay him, it will be because he doesn't deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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