Wayne Arnold Posted September 16, 2017 Author Posted September 16, 2017 If it were a 5 game season, Shaq would still have done next to nothing in the NFL. K bye
BADOLBILZ Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 Here is an interesting stat.... in the last 11 NFL games the Bills have played Shaq Lawson has as many sacks as Jerry Hughes. They both have 2. So I do think there is something to your point Wayne. The scheme wasn't producing sacks down the stretch last year. Here is an interesting fact ..........Shaq comes off the field on passing downs for an undrafted free agent and a guy who was cut by a team in the Canadian Football League last season. I kid but just like we know that Lorax and EY are better than their path to the team indicates we know that the eyeball test and common sense tells us that Hughes is a much better pass rusher. He plays against better blockers, draws more attention and was playing hurt the second half of last year........while Shaq got to come in fresh as a daisy 7 weeks into the season, stunk up the joint and had his snaps cut dramatically at the end despite a need for re-inforcements because he was just playing very poorly. I think Lorax only has about 2 sacks in that time as well......he got injured and worn out playing every snap on D and ST last year too.......but seemingly every time he rushes the passer he still pushes the pocket and pressures the passer..........Shaq doesn't put consistent pressure on OT's and subsequently rarely pressures a QB. Maybe that will change........but I think the Terrell Suggs comparisons we saw might have been a bit off-base. K bye Bad thread for you. Exposed your lack of understanding of even mid-level intricacies of the game. Stick to the general sarcasm and mediocre gifs.
boyst Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 My take is that he was an elite edge setter who got his share of sacks in college. At the very least, he should duplicate that in the pros. The injury and scheme change hindered him slightly in year one, but he was drafted at 19 overall. I think for his skill set, his floor is what he was in Clemson. And by all accounts the new staff likes what he is and what he does. Can he improve his pass rush? No doubt. Will he? Depends on what he's asked to do. I certainly think as it stands right now, he's worth #19 pick...with potential to grow as a pass rusher. Just my take. He's not lightning quick or twitchy, but has great hand usage and bullrush moves. He'll only get better as he grows and wisens up to the pro game. Again, just my take so, i won't disagree but we have seen nothing to show he is improving his game just yet. he has not had much time to do so but, to the trained eye we have not seen him look to be able to develop those skills. i liken him to chris kelsey in his ceiling. First NFL training camp in his first game as a 43 DE and he was a force in the run game. I guarantee Frazier and DL coach are estatic with his play lol and you're here labeling him a washed up bum with no potential. Smh no, no i'm not. i'm labeling him as someone who i cannot recognize the talent in to have justified a 1st round pick. i know he is good and above average at his strengths but also see his weaknesses too easily. i think he could have a long career - 10 years+ but never truly live up to a first round pick. he has a long way to go and a lot to develop.
GunnerBill Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 I kid but just like we know that Lorax and EY are better than their path to the team indicates we know that the eyeball test and common sense tells us that Hughes is a much better pass rusher. Come on Badol you know me better than to think I am arguing for Shaq based on his draft position. I will happily take your ribbing if I am wrong. I am not too proud.
NoSaint Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 The more pressure you have, the more sacks you're going to have. It goes hand in hand. It's not as if Rex told the players "when you get close to the quarterback, stop before you sack him". Come on, now. If only the NFL were a five-game season. As a general guide - sure. Though there are outliers. See our own Lorenzo Alexander who got sacks on an obscene percentage of his pressures. He was high sacks but low pressure
DefenseWins Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 I don't place too much emphasis on anything we have seen yet on most any of these players on the roster... Like it or not we are in the midst of a classic REBUILD. There will be alot more roster changes on this team by next season and the season after that. Call it a purge if you will. It's not a particularly young roster to begin with and this team is building for the future. Wouldn't be surprised for example if Dareus is gone in two years - or less... Shady is not getting any younger though he is still incredible to watch play... A new QB in next years draft... Lots of changes coming... Let's see how Lawson and all these players develop this season...
GunnerBill Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 As a general guide - sure. Though there are outliers. See our own Lorenzo Alexander who got sacks on an obscene percentage of his pressures. He was high sacks but low pressure Correct. Pressures are important but converting is too.
BADOLBILZ Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 Come on Badol you know me better than to think I am arguing for Shaq based on his draft position. I will happily take your ribbing if I am wrong. I am not too proud. I was just pointing out that both cases are basically cherry picking a stat/fact to support an argument you know is invalid.........that Lawson has rushed the passer as well as Hughes or that Shaq is huge disappointment simply because he can't keep an aged UDFA and a CFL reject off the field on 3rd downs. FWIW Shaq is clearly a better player this year.........but last year he was really poor. His play in that Pittsburgh game was horrendous and that's what got him basically benched for the rest of the season.
NoSaint Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 Correct. Pressures are important but converting is too. Yup. For bar napkin math and fan talk sacks tend to be a fine enough stat. If really hashing it out you have to look deeper. I'm not sure what ratio I trade those at in the talk but it's a discussion (prefer 10 sacks on 50 pressures or 8 on 60 pressures for a season?). I'm sure there's analytics out there on average outcomes of both plays in order to draw equivalents though.
JerseyBills Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 so, i won't disagree but we have seen nothing to show he is improving his game just yet. he has not had much time to do so but, to the trained eye we have not seen him look to be able to develop those skills. i liken him to chris kelsey in his ceiling. no, no i'm not. i'm labeling him as someone who i cannot recognize the talent in to have justified a 1st round pick. i know he is good and above average at his strengths but also see his weaknesses too easily. i think he could have a long career - 10 years+ but never truly live up to a first round pick. he has a long way to go and a lot to develop. Even though I disagree about his ceiling, I respect this opinion
Wayne Arnold Posted September 16, 2017 Author Posted September 16, 2017 Bad thread for you. Exposed your lack of understanding of even mid-level intricacies of the game. Stick to the general sarcasm and mediocre gifs. "Shaq is a bust because I said so" displays a much better understanding of the game.
GunnerBill Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 I was just pointing out that both cases are basically cherry picking a stat/fact to support an argument you know is invalid.........that Lawson has rushed the passer as well as Hughes or that Shaq is huge disappointment simply because he can't keep an aged UDFA and a CFL reject off the field on 3rd downs. FWIW Shaq is clearly a better player this year.........but last year he was really poor. His play in that Pittsburgh game was horrendous and that's what got him basically benched for the rest of the season. You know I like you Badol. Right (and you often are) or wrong. You always try and argue your point. It is what the board should be.
Wayne Arnold Posted September 16, 2017 Author Posted September 16, 2017 You know I like you Badol. Right (and you often are) or wrong. You always try and argue your point. It is what the board should be. Get a room.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 (edited) Of course not. Your lane is blame Whaley. ...Whaley was blamed for drafting a wounded duck if I remember right.....so now if the kid succeeds, no way in hell Whaley should get a milligram of credit...nothing but luck......... Edited September 16, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy
GunnerBill Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 Get a room. Haha. I think he is wrong on Shaq. And I remind Badol when he is wrong too. He didn't like the Schwartz hire.....
Wayne Arnold Posted September 16, 2017 Author Posted September 16, 2017 Haha. I think he is wrong on Shaq. And I remind Badol when he is wrong too. He didn't like the Schwartz hire..... Had no idea who this BADOL poster was before this thread but needless to say I'm not impressed. And I don't even necessarily disagree with him about Shaq, I just depend on real evidence for my views which he seems either incapable of sharing or too lazy and/or arrogant to do so.
boyst Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 Even though I disagree about his ceiling, I respect this opinion the one thing I do like about them to your credit and what you're saying is his footwork. He seldom is in the wrong place with his footwork and balance it's just he doesn't have what it takes to be quick enough to get there. he relies upon his strength and his ability to effectively b an anchor
Guest NeckBeard Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 Had no idea who this BADOL poster was before this thread but needless to say I'm not impressed. And I don't even necessarily disagree with him about Shaq, I just depend on real evidence for my views which he seems either incapable of sharing or too lazy and/or arrogant to do so. Your hypocrisy is stunning, and I think you need to review your recent postings before making the claim that you rely on real evidence for your views. You post good stuff every now and again, but your will to tear other posters down (using words like clueless, or to suggest that others get a clue, or that your views are somehow intellectually superior to those who have different takes than you), or to post animated gifs as barbs, or to have the audacity to claim that others are treating you badly -- are all evidence that you're just another dude, just like the rest of us, who posts on a message board.
3rdand12 Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 Correct. Pressures are important but converting is too. when you can definitively relate correlate an incomplete, drop or pass break up, or better yet a turnover from the pressure you would know the best answer perhaps. The sack is the better outcome. Watching games, re-watching games defines this feature Much better than any statistical evidence. I would pick pressures much over Great Zone coverage for the fun feature as a Fan watching for sure
John from Riverside Posted September 16, 2017 Posted September 16, 2017 You know I like you Badol. Right (and you often are) or wrong. You always try and argue your point. It is what the board should be. Frankly over the course of time Bado has grown a bit on me to.....dont always agree but def respect his takes. In this particular instance I just think we have to wait and see what a full season looks like before passing judgement...... Pressures are more important then sacks Sack tend to come in bunches and EVERY good edge you see in the NFL pads his stats against bad OT's at some point in a season This is essentially Lawson's rookie year I dont have a problem with the crit on him......just I think its too early to pass judgement on who he is as a player.
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