THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Off and Running

[Alphadawg7]

Five feet comes from this:

 

Clay jumped. The ball hit his hands above his head, not in front of his face. If a 6'3" guy jumps and puts his hands over his head to contact the ball, his hands are 8 feet off the ground even if he only goes 6 or 8 inches airborne.. The throw to that receiver is supposed to be down, at his waist. His waist is about 3 feet off the ground. 8 feet (where the ball was) - 3 feet (where the ball should have been) = 5 feet. That's how I got to 5 feet.

 

As I've said in this discussion, the continuing review of this play has caused me to realize that because the passing lane was blocked, Taylor COULDN'T have thrown it low - he had to throw over Glenn and his man. That tells me that Taylor's inaccuracy on that play was not the result of a mechanical failure - he threw it the only way he could. The problem, then, wasn't inaccuracy - it was his failure to maneuver in the pocket to open the throwing lane. He had time to do that after he'd identified Clay as the right target on the play.

 

Now, as I've also said, I'm a Taylor fan and I continue to think that he can be the long-term solution at QB. I find this play interesting because that skill, stepping up and/or sliding in the pocket to access the best throwing lanes, is something that we see the top QBs do. Brees, particularly, is a master at it, because given his size, his downfield vision is more limited than some of the larger QBs. Taylor has the same limitation and needs the same skill.

 

There's another important aspect of that play that has been mentioned in this thread - risk taking. Taylor's stats to this point in his career are very good, in a significant part, by his low interception numbers. He's created those numbers by not taking chances. That's not good enough - the best QBs are risk takers; they learn when to take chances. If you never take them, you never learn how to take them. This play was one of those plays. I have no way of knowing, but I would guess that last season Taylor would not have thrown that ball - he didn't have the look at Clay that he wanted, he didn't have much more time, and he didn't have any other good options (like you, I don't think Jones was an option at all). Last season he would have thrown it away or run. Sunday Taylor risked three points by deciding to throw, and in fact he lost the three points. But I commend him for taking the risk, because he has to learn. I'd guess he knew it was a tough throw, he threw it about as well as he could given the passing lane problem, and he gave Clay a decent chance to catch the ball.

 

I really think that what Taylor and the coaches talked about Monday or Tuesday was how to improve his ability to move around in the pocket - how to recognize opportunities and how to fight the instinct to back up. On this play, a half step forward instead of a half step back would have made it an easy throw.

You're welcome.

 

You're welcome.

 

Man, I am puzzled by you. You have good thoughts on other things, but I am a bit taken back by some of the conclusions you are taking no this Clay play. 5 feet? REALLY?

 

You have this mythological idea that Clay did a 48" vertical or something on this play. He barely jumped, and he didn't even have to jump. And Clays hands were literally eye level. Its mathematically impossible for the pass to be remotely close to 5 feet off. I mean if the ball is literally a foot away it hits him right in the chest.

 

Saying the ball was five feet off target is so over the top and ludricrous its like someone claiming the Bills are gonna go undefeated and win the SB this year. In fact, if the ball is 5 feet in any direction from where it actually was, then Clay likely doesn't even get his hands on the ball or its picked off before Clay touches it.

 

Again, all good dude, we wont and don't need to agree on this particular topic, but man this 5 feet stuff now is just crazy to me. I still don't know why you are going to such extremes and greatly over exaggerating the height and difficulty of that catch to excuse Clay either. Almost everyone agrees that Clay has to make that catch no matter what, even if the pass could have been improved by slightly better placement or coming out a half second earlier. Nothing changes the fact that its almost universally agreed that Clay needs to complete the catch there. For some reason you are one of only a few people that refuses to accept Clay missed a VERY catchable ball and it cost us points.

 

No disrespect, but I am glad you are not our TE coach or OC because we need our coaches to both hold Clay accountable there and not go easy on him. Its way too common of an occurrence for our highly paid TE to have lapses in key moments like that. And like I said before, if that pass is not in his catch radius nor expected to be, then I would without question cut him tomorrow. I obviously believe it to be one he can and should catch, so not saying to cut him, just saying if you think thats not an expected catch then you should be calling for him to be cut.

[BuffaloMatt]

Clay dropped the ball. IMO. Hate that the interception is on TT's stat line. Very misleading.

[Shaw66]

Man, I am puzzled by you. You have good thoughts on other things, but I am a bit taken back by some of the conclusions you are taking no this Clay play. 5 feet? REALLY?

 

You have this mythological idea that Clay did a 48" vertical or something on this play. He barely jumped, and he didn't even have to jump. And Clays hands were literally eye level. Its mathematically impossible for the pass to be remotely close to 5 feet off. I mean if the ball is literally a foot away it hits him right in the chest.

 

Saying the ball was five feet off target is so over the top and ludricrous its like someone claiming the Bills are gonna go undefeated and win the SB this year. In fact, if the ball is 5 feet in any direction from where it actually was, then Clay likely doesn't even get his hands on the ball or its picked off before Clay touches it.

 

Again, all good dude, we wont and don't need to agree on this particular topic, but man this 5 feet stuff now is just crazy to me. I still don't know why you are going to such extremes and greatly over exaggerating the height and difficulty of that catch to excuse Clay either. Almost everyone agrees that Clay has to make that catch no matter what, even if the pass could have been improved by slightly better placement or coming out a half second earlier. Nothing changes the fact that its almost universally agreed that Clay needs to complete the catch there. For some reason you are one of only a few people that refuses to accept Clay missed a VERY catchable ball and it cost us points.

 

No disrespect, but I am glad you are not our TE coach or OC because we need our coaches to both hold Clay accountable there and not go easy on him. Its way too common of an occurrence for our highly paid TE to have lapses in key moments like that. And like I said before, if that pass is not in his catch radius nor expected to be, then I would without question cut him tomorrow. I obviously believe it to be one he can and should catch, so not saying to cut him, just saying if you think thats not an expected catch then you should be calling for him to be cut.

You just can't read.

 

48" jump. I didn't say that.

 

I gave you the math. The ball was 8 feet off the ground and is supposed to be 3 feet off the ground. Very simple to get to 5 feet from there.

 

I've gone to NO extremes to excuse Clay. I've said repeatedly he should catch the ball. Somehow your brain translates that into excusing Clay.

 

You don't know me. One thing about me is I care very little about tight ends. The QB is literally 10 times more important to the team than the tight end. Therefore I care 10 times more about whether Taylor executed properly than about whether Clay executed properly. My comments in this thread are about Tyrod, not about Clay.

 

I will bet you $500 that the coaches have talked to and worked with Taylor about the flaws in his execution of this play. (They've talked to Clay, too, for sure, but there isn't much to say to him other than get yourself ready and catch it.) With Taylor there are multiple little skills involved in that play that he should and can improve. That's what I've been talking about all along.

 

I'm not trying to blame anyone or excuse anyone, and I've never said anything about that. You just have an active imagination.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Shaw66

[billsfan1960]

Thanks for the write up, due to Irma, unable to go to the Bills Bar (which was closed) in St Pete, good to see that the improvement in the Team especially Taylor, on to Carolina. Go Bills (side note, just got power 3 hrs ago, dodged a big bullet)

[Shaw66]

Thanks for the write up, due to Irma, unable to go to the Bills Bar (which was closed) in St Pete, good to see that the improvement in the Team especially Taylor, on to Carolina. Go Bills (side note, just got power 3 hrs ago, dodged a big bullet)

Too bad you missed it. It was a good game to watch. Bills actually won without relying on screwups by the other team or by having a lucky break.

 

Glad you dodged that bullet.

[Alphadawg7]

You just can't read.

 

48" jump. I didn't say that.

 

I gave you the math. The ball was 8 feet off the ground and is supposed to be 3 feet off the ground. Very simple to get to 5 feet from there.

 

I'e gone to NO extremes to excuse Clay. I've said repeatedly he should catch the ball. Somehow your brain translates that into excusing Clay.

 

You don't know me. One thing about me is I care very little about tight ends. The QB is literally 10 times more important to the team than the tight end. Therefore I care 10 times more about whether Taylor executed properly than about whether Clay executed properly. My comments in this thread are about Tyrod, not about Clay.

 

I will bet you $500 that the coaches have talked to and worked with Taylor about the flaws in his execution of this play. (They've talked to Clay, too, for sure, but there isn't much to say to him other than get yourself ready and catch it.) With Taylor there are multiple little skills involved in that play that he should and can improve. That's what I've been talking about all along.

 

I'm not trying to blame anyone or excuse anyone, and I've never said anything about that. You just have an active imagination.

 

Huh? I didn't say you said that it was 48", I said you EXAGGERATE like it was that, so not sure why you are saying I can't read when you just misread what I said. You are so far off base on this 8 foot and 5 feet thing that I am pretty shocked to be honest.

 

Let me see if I got this straight (keep in mind, you started this argument of yours admitting you didn't even see the play clearly)

 

1. Clay is 6' 3" tall. Watch the video, if you think Clay is 2 feet off the ground then you need to go study your tape measure. He is barely 4 to 6 inches off the ground, and hes not really even that high, it was barely a jump. And the ball is BELOW the top of his helmet. That means the ball is about 6 and a half feet from the ground at MOST. Where on Earth are you getting 8 feet? Everything I said is FACTUALLY available in the VIDEO replay.

 

2. 5 Feet from where the ball REALLY was would be about a foot and a half off the ground.

 

3. A low pass behind the target is NOT easier to catch than a pass in both his hands at eye level.

 

4. On top of that, under NO circumstances is a pass 3 feet above the ground (where you claim it should have been) easier to catch than in the numbers of the receiver, ESPECIALLY before a hit in the back where the receiving target can secure the ball in his chest. So if you want to argue what the BEST ball placement was, its in the chest, about a foot away from where the ball was, not 3 feet off the ground.

 

5. You are now again flip flopping and contradicting your statements. Here is your quote from page 7 of this thread:

 

"Alpha - You make an interesting point about the throwing lane. When I look at the replay, it's pretty clear that Glenn and his man are right in the throwing lane. Taylor COULDN'T throw it low with any zip on the ball."

 

Yet here you are again going BACK to this low throw stuff that you just said 2 pages ago TT didn't have an effective lane to do so.

 

Honestly man, while I respect a lot of the other things you said, I feel like this has become all about ego for you and being right, like you alluded to also earlier in this thread. You started your adamant argument admitting you didn't even see the play clearly. Since then, you keep coming up with a new proclamation that the video keeps disproving, then move on to a new one. It was already shown the low throwing lane wasn't really there, you agreed. The video shows a very short jump and now you somehow claim the ball was 8 feet in the air yet its not even above Clays helmet and Clay is just a handful of INCHES off the ground.

 

Lets just move on...I love the discussion, but this thing has taken on a life of its own and I 100000% stand by my opinion that you continue to grossly and inaccurately exaggerate the conditions of the play in an effort to win a discussion that really doesn't need a winner or a loser. And thats when these things go off the rail and there is no need to do that here.

 

Sincerely its all good, sending beers and good vibes to you sir.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[SoCal Deek]

Shaw?

 

Not sure what all the height measurements are supposed to prove. There are TONS of times when a QB throws the ball high, low, outside and inside in order to make a completion. There is no one specific spot that the QB is supposed to throw it. And, with most TEs the ball is thrown high so they go up and get it like a rebound in basketball. The old saying has always held true...if the Receiver can touch it, he's supposed to be able to catch it. Virtually every WR and TE at every level will tell you that.

[transplantbillsfan]

You just can't read.

 

48" jump. I didn't say that.

I gave you the math. The ball was 8 feet off the ground and is supposed to be 3 feet off the ground. Very simple to get to 5 feet from there.

 

I've gone to NO extremes to excuse Clay. I've said repeatedly he should catch the ball. Somehow your brain translates that into excusing Clay.

 

You don't know me. One thing about me is I care very little about tight ends. The QB is literally 10 times more important to the team than the tight end. Therefore I care 10 times more about whether Taylor executed properly than about whether Clay executed properly. My comments in this thread are about Tyrod, not about Clay.

 

I will bet you $500 that the coaches have talked to and worked with Taylor about the flaws in his execution of this play. (They've talked to Clay, too, for sure, but there isn't much to say to him other than get yourself ready and catch it.) With Taylor there are multiple little skills involved in that play that he should and can improve. That's what I've been talking about all along.

 

I'm not trying to blame anyone or excuse anyone, and I've never said anything about that. You just have an active imagination.

Come on, Shaw. A 3 foot high pass is a terrible pass to any NFL player in almost any situation. If there is a midget league out there, though, then it becomes a great pass

[Bills Pimpin']

I'm not sure why y'all are on Shaws ass about that throw. The throw wasn't great. It was high, behind, and hard. And most importantly it was late. I would bet that those 2 practiced that play 20 times and not one time did Tyrod throw that ball where he did in the game. And please don't say I'm giving Clay a pass because I'm not, the ball got on him quick and it shouldn't have. He could have caught the ball. But if he did, it would be a very good to borderline great play by Clay. But regardless if he did (and we all know very well at this point that he didnt) it will always be, at best, a mediocre play and throw by Tyrod.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Bills Pimpin'

[QCity]

I've seen this play hundreds of times (and that's not hyperbole). If you watch football weekly, you've probably seen the result of it hundreds of times too (perhaps unknowingly). Every offense has this play (or some variant) in their playbook. If you are getting caught up on ball placement it's a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

Tyrod has to force the DB to commit and he has to go to the receiver in single coverage. He doesn't do either. He glaces at Jones for a fraction of a second and stares down Clay the entire time. He makes it easy for the extra DB to break on his throw resulting in a pass into double coverage.

 

I was going to post two more videos showing what this play looks like when executed properly with the DB led -- one pass to the receiver running out and the other to the receiver breaking in. There really is no point however, it's clear people are going to see what they want to see in this case. If their narrative is the QB did everything properly, any further explanation would be time wasted. Don't worry though, it's a certainty we'll see this play again soon, probably to the right side next time.