THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Off and Running

[Scott7975]

 

Link

 

All the arguing about the Clay pass, meanwhile Zay Jones is wide open in the back of the endzone for an easy 6.

Zay is open because the DB is watching Tyrod go in throwing motion to Clay. This is the problem with people trying to analyze all-22 and don't know crap.

Here is a still. Tyrod about to release the ball. Zay hasnt come on screen yet which means he is still bunched in the corner with the DB. I stole this off the board gif so the quality sucks, but I can see this from a tiny freaking square for christ sake. Stop watching all-22.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Scott7975

[Mat68]

 

Link

 

All the arguing about the Clay pass, meanwhile Zay Jones is wide open in the back of the endzone for an easy 6.

It is obvious to me that Clay is the guy he trust the most. Was a tight window but that is a play your premier TE needs to make...

[QCity]

Zay is open because the DB is watching Tyrod go in throwing motion to Clay. This is the problem with people trying to analyze all-22 and don't know crap.

Here is a still. Tyrod about to release the ball. Zay hasnt come on screen yet which means he is still bunched in the corner with the DB. I stole this off the board gif so the quality sucks, but I can see this from a tiny freaking square for christ sake. Stop watching all-22.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's another still for you. TT hasn't released the ball yet and the DB is already committed to the TE. Zay Jones has just started to streak across the back of the endzone. This is not a difficult play -- in fact it's considered QB 101. You look off the defender by staring down the TE and toss a gimmie TD over the middle. There's no possible way for that defender to cover the WR if executed properly. Of course, TT stares down the TE and then throws high and slightly behind him (when the ball should have been thrown low in a place that Clay and only Clay could possibly catch it). This is why people criticize TT for not being an anticipatory passer. Again, this is basic stuff here and with that protection every QB in the league should be able to connect on this. Maybe next time you should try putting down the pom-pom's before watching tape.

[Bill_with_it]

 

 

 

 

Here's another still for you. TT hasn't released the ball yet and the DB is already committed to the TE. Zay Jones has just started to streak across the back of the endzone. This is not a difficult play -- in fact it's considered QB 101. You look off the defender by staring down the TE and toss a gimmie TD over the middle. There's no possible way for that defender to cover the WR if executed properly. Of course, TT stares down the TE and then throws high and slightly behind him (when the ball should have been thrown low in a place that Clay and only Clay could possibly catch it). This is why people criticize TT for not being an anticipatory passer. Again, this is basic stuff here and with that protection every QB in the league should be able to connect on this. Maybe next time you should try putting down the pom-pom's before watching tape.

The ball is about to be release in the still. Tyrod has comiited to throwing it to clay well before this still. His drive foot is already coming off the field. You have not clue what is going on in that still you posted.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

Glad you're here, Shaw! I always looked forward to reading your reviews on Sunday nights or Monday mornings at work (I would have read it sooner, but I've been busy dealing with Irma and it's destruction. I was able to watch the game, though).

 

Can't disagree with any of it. That play by Kyle was on 3rd down iirc, adding to it's importance. The coaches should emphasize this play to the younger guys in the film room.

 

The Broncos game will be my first home game attended. I hope that intense crowd feeling that you speak of is there. Hopefully your next write up will follow another W.

[Shaw66]

The ball is about to be release in the still. Tyrod has comiited to throwing it to clay well before this still. His drive foot is already coming off the field. You have not clue what is going on in that still you posted.

I'm with you. TT already is committed to Clay in that still.

 

But QCity is correct about ball placement. That ball has to be thrown low so that only Clay can get it. It is NOT supposed to be thrown high, for the exact reason that played out here. Throw it high and you've turned it into a jump ball.

 

And the notion that it was at eye level is ridiculous. Clay jumped and reached over his head to make a play on the ball. It simply was one of Taylor's poorer throws of the day. Could Clay have caught it? Sure. But that doesn't mean it was a good throw.

 

There's also the question of whether Taylor read this play as quickly as he needed to. The still makes it look like he did, but it isn't easy to tell. I'd love to know what the coaches said to Taylor after watching the film.

[y2zipper]

I don't think ball placement and Clay's inability to catch that are mutually exclusive here. I would say it was the right read given the zone coverage and the window is between the guy covering clay and the guy on the right side. That DB played Taylor's eyes and release and made the window smaller after Taylor committed to throwing to Clay.

 

The ball was in the right place left-to-right because that's where the window is, but I'd say that's a ball that should be thrown lower so Clay can dive down for it. It's in the window where only Clay can get it but it's too high.

 

I would also tell you that the ball is in Clay's catch radius and he should catch it. The biggest takeaway is Buffalo left points on the field, which isn't great against better teams. It's the kind of the thing McDermott is referring to when he says there's still a ton of work to do.

[transplantbillsfan]

Regarding the DTs, particularly Dareus, we were absolutely incredible against the run game. That tackle for Kyle he referred to is, from when I can remember the only play he made during the game. Let me rephrase, the only tackle he made in the game or the only thing that pops on a stat sheet. DTs are space eaters. I don't think we should be overly concerned right now. If our run defense looks this good, I'm betting the DTs are doing their jobs.

 

Great post, as always, Shaw

Edited September 13, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[Alphadawg7]

I'm with you. TT already is committed to Clay in that still.

 

But QCity is correct about ball placement. That ball has to be thrown low so that only Clay can get it. It is NOT supposed to be thrown high, for the exact reason that played out here. Throw it high and you've turned it into a jump ball.

 

And the notion that it was at eye level is ridiculous. Clay jumped and reached over his head to make a play on the ball. It simply was one of Taylor's poorer throws of the day. Could Clay have caught it? Sure. But that doesn't mean it was a good throw.

 

There's also the question of whether Taylor read this play as quickly as he needed to. The still makes it look like he did, but it isn't easy to tell. I'd love to know what the coaches said to Taylor after watching the film.

 

No offense, but you are completely contradicting yourself in this statement. First, where does this false pretense come from that you keep saying that you are not supposed to throw the ball high? In no way is that actual football sense, in fact they have a term for specifically throwing the ball high to where ONLY your player can get to it and that his High Pointing.

 

I mean you literally say the QB is supposed to put the ball where only his target can get to it and that is 1 million percent exactly what TT did. You seem to think that because on a high pass a player can screw up and not catch it causing the ball to be tipped in the air is somehow disqualified as a location for putting the ball when that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Furthermore, throwing to a HIGH spot in the End Zone is one of the most common type of throws period in the red zone passing. That is the entire point of having BIG targets at WR and TE...to specifically to be able to throw to them at a higher point where its harder for shorter DB's to to interfere with the play.

 

Again...I liked a lot of what you wrote on some other things, but you are way way off base with your assignment of blame on this play and your description of what "should" be done. Plus you literally keep contradicting yourself claiming it needs to be where only Clay can get it when that is EXACTLY where Clay got the ball...and right in BOTH hands directly in front of his face on a short Dagger route.

 

 

 

 

Here's another still for you. TT hasn't released the ball yet and the DB is already committed to the TE. Zay Jones has just started to streak across the back of the endzone. This is not a difficult play -- in fact it's considered QB 101. You look off the defender by staring down the TE and toss a gimmie TD over the middle. There's no possible way for that defender to cover the WR if executed properly. Of course, TT stares down the TE and then throws high and slightly behind him (when the ball should have been thrown low in a place that Clay and only Clay could possibly catch it). This is why people criticize TT for not being an anticipatory passer. Again, this is basic stuff here and with that protection every QB in the league should be able to connect on this. Maybe next time you should try putting down the pom-pom's before watching tape.

 

And sorry man, this write up couldn't be less accurate. I mean TT is literally already planted for the throw to Clay and you can see the DB staring right at TT seeing where the ball is going. No offense, but literally nothing you wrote is accurate about this play.

[Scott7975]

 

 

 

 

Here's another still for you. TT hasn't released the ball yet and the DB is already committed to the TE. Zay Jones has just started to streak across the back of the endzone. This is not a difficult play -- in fact it's considered QB 101. You look off the defender by staring down the TE and toss a gimmie TD over the middle. There's no possible way for that defender to cover the WR if executed properly. Of course, TT stares down the TE and then throws high and slightly behind him (when the ball should have been thrown low in a place that Clay and only Clay could possibly catch it). This is why people criticize TT for not being an anticipatory passer. Again, this is basic stuff here and with that protection every QB in the league should be able to connect on this. Maybe next time you should try putting down the pom-pom's before watching tape.

I agree with you that the ball isn't in the right place. Still threw a catchable ball. You are still wrong about the play. Taylor is committed at that point and the ball is in release motion. This is why the DB is committed. You don't have time to play around in the endzone. The line also breaks down after he releases the ball.

 

Just stop. You are wrong. Taylor had the right read. The throw was a bit off but still catchable.

[Shaw66]

No offense, but you are completely contradicting yourself in this statement. First, where does this false pretense come from that you keep saying that you are not supposed to throw the ball high? In no way is that actual football sense, in fact they have a term for specifically throwing the ball high to where ONLY your player can get to it and that his High Pointing.

 

I mean you literally say the QB is supposed to put the ball where only his target can get to it and that is 1 million percent exactly what TT did. You seem to think that because on a high pass a player can screw up and not catch it causing the ball to be tipped in the air is somehow disqualified as a location for putting the ball when that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Furthermore, throwing to a HIGH spot in the End Zone is one of the most common type of throws period in the red zone passing. That is the entire point of having BIG targets at WR and TE...to specifically to be able to throw to them at a higher point where its harder for shorter DB's to to interfere with the play.

 

Again...I liked a lot of what you wrote on some other things, but you are way way off base with your assignment of blame on this play and your description of what "should" be done. Plus you literally keep contradicting yourself claiming it needs to be where only Clay can get it when that is EXACTLY where Clay got the ball...and right in BOTH hands directly in front of his face on a short Dagger route.

I should let this go, but I'm replying for several reasons:

 

1. I have a big ego. I like being right and I like arguing.

 

2. I learn things in these discussions.

 

3. Someone who reads this may learn something. YOU may learn something, but you seem more intent on arguing than listening and thinking.

 

4. Others may enjoy reading this, may even be amused by it.

 

Okay, are you ready? You really misunderstand some basic things about this aspect of football.

 

1. Where do I get the notion that the ball shouldn't be thrown high? It's very simple: quarterbacks are taught that when the defenders are BETWEEN the QB and the receiver, to throw it high so only the receiver can get it. When the defenders are BEHIND the receiver, QBs are supposed to throw low so that only the receiver can get it. Throwing high to receivers when the defenders are BEHIND the receiver leads to the possibility of tipped balls and INTs, which is EXACTLY what happened here. If Taylor had thrown low to Clay, there may or may not have been a completion, but there would have beeen no interception, and the Bills would have kicked a field goal.

 

The best example of this general rule is this exact case. When the receivers are at the back of end zone, the defenders are in front and the QB is supposed to throw high. If the ball goes off the receiver's hands, it carries out end zone and there's no INT.

 

But when the receiver is on the goal line, as in this case, the defenders typically are behind the receiver, so the QB is supposed to throw low.

 

2. There was no reason for Taylor to throw high. There's no advantage to throwing high in that situation, and there's a higher probability of an INT. You seem to think because it's OK in some circumstances to throw high that it's OK in this instance, and it isn't. Much of football decision making is about probabilities, and this case is a good example. THe probability of completing the pass is the same, whether it's thrown high or low, so long as the ball is within a reasonable catching radius. The probability of an INT is higher if the QB throws high. So the QB is taught to throw low. Simple.

 

3. You don't understand what high-pointing is. That is a term used to describe what the RECEIVER does, not what the QB does. High-pointing describes the receiving jumping to catch a pass at the highest point off the ground possible. By high-pointing, the receiver to reduce or eliminate the number of defenders who can make a play on the ball by virture of the receiver's height and jumping ability. It's a technique that is applied on passes with air uner them, because it's only those passes that give the receiver options as to where to catch the ball. The ball is coming down, the receiver could try to catch the ball when it is 6 feet, 8 feet or 10 feet off the ground. The best play is to high point it, to catch it 10 feet off the ground. A receiver running downfield has a chance to do that by jumping earlier rather than continuing to run and letting the ball fall to him.

 

This wasn't one of those situations. Clay was running across the field and the throw was going downfield. Clay's only option was to catch the ball at the point wher his path and the ball's path intersected.

 

High pointing is irrelevant. And it has nothing to do with how Taylor should throw the ball on this kind of play.

 

4. You say the point of having big targets is so they can out-jump defenders. That's true. But that doesn't mean that all throws to the end zone are supposed to be thrown high. The ball has to be thrown where the probabilities are best. See above.

 

5. You say throwing high to receivers in the end zone is a common practice. That's also true. But that is true when the receivers are deep in the end zone and the defenders are in front of the receiver. It is not true when the receiver is in the front of the end zone and the defenders are behind him. See above.

 

Rephrasing an old proverb, Abraham Lincoln once said "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

Regarding the DTs, particularly Dareus, we were absolutely incredible against the run game. That tackle for Kyle he referred to is, from when I can remember the only play he made during the game. Let me rephrase, the only tackle he made in the game or the only thing that pops on a stat sheet. DTs are space eaters. I don't think we should be overly concerned right now. If our run defense looks this good, I'm betting the DTs are doing their jobs.

 

Great post, as always, Shaw

Thanks.

 

I agree with this. Tackles don't pile up stats, and they can have very good games without ever being visible to most of us unsophisticated viewers of the game. It takes some real discipline to see what the DTs are doing while watching the games. Kyle's play was easy because the stunt put him outside the DE and then running free in the backfield.

 

The Jets had so little success running the ball, Hughes, Dareus, Kyle and Shaq had to have played well. They either were making tackles or making it possible for linebackers and DBs to make tackles.

[Coach Tuesday]

I agree with you that the ball isn't in the right place. Still threw a catchable ball. You are still wrong about the play. Taylor is committed at that point and the ball is in release motion. This is why the DB is committed. You don't have time to play around in the endzone. The line also breaks down after he releases the ball.

 

Just stop. You are wrong. Taylor had the right read. The throw was a bit off but still catchable.

 

Actually now that I've watched that play about 50 times, and looking at the still, if Tyrod throws it where it would hit Clay in stride, the safety (or nickel back?) is in position to intercept it and take it 105 yards to the house. Maybe Tyrod threw it slightly behind him on purpose??

[HappyDays]

 

Actually now that I've watched that play about 50 times, and looking at the still, if Tyrod throws it where it would hit Clay in stride, the safety (or nickel back?) is in position to intercept it and take it 105 yards to the house. Maybe Tyrod threw it slightly behind him on purpose??

This is one of things we'll never know for sure just watching the tape but this is what Cover1 thinks and I trust his judgments as much as I would anyone's. His thinking is that the safety Jamal Adams would have nailed Clay. So Tyrod intentionally threw a back shoulder throw leading Clay away from the safety. Adams actually played this perfectly. He's the reason fans think Zay Jones was wide open (he wasn't) and why the play wasn't a TD.

[oldmanfan]

I think it's all overanalysis. I think the throw was where it was because that's where he threw it, and I think Clay didn't catch it because it hit his hands wrong.

[Shaw66]

This is one of things we'll never know for sure just watching the tape but this is what Cover1 thinks and I trust his judgments as much as I would anyone's. His thinking is that the safety Jamal Adams would have nailed Clay. So Tyrod intentionally threw a back shoulder throw leading Clay away from the safety. Adams actually played this perfectly. He's the reason fans think Zay Jones was wide open (he wasn't) and why the play wasn't a TD.

Like I said, I'd like to know what the coaches told Tyrod.

 

But this makes sense. Someone else said Tyrod did what you say expecting Clay to "settle into that spot instead of to continue running. Since Clay didn't slow down, it became a tougher catch for him - if he'd stopped, he could have gone airborne for easily and it's a score.

 

If Clay was supposed to make that read and stop, then Tyrod's throw behind him was the right throw. Still too high - especially when the receiver is settling in front of a zone like that, the throw is supposed to be down.

 

There are so many plays like this that I'd like to hear what the coaches say. They know what the players were supposed to do and they watch the films and see whether the player did it. We all just speculate, except for the occasional poster who has some serious football experience - like years playing or coaching D-I.

I think it's all overanalysis. I think the throw was where it was because that's where he threw it, and I think Clay didn't catch it because it hit his hands wrong.

Right. Not the way the coaches look at it, but you're right.

 

The important point, however, is that the players' jobs on that play was to avoid the turnover to preserve the scoring opportunity. They failed.

[oldmanfan]

Like I said, I'd like to know what the coaches told Tyrod.

 

But this makes sense. Someone else said Tyrod did what you say expecting Clay to "settle into that spot instead of to continue running. Since Clay didn't slow down, it became a tougher catch for him - if he'd stopped, he could have gone airborne for easily and it's a score.

 

If Clay was supposed to make that read and stop, then Tyrod's throw behind him was the right throw. Still too high - especially when the receiver is settling in front of a zone like that, the throw is supposed to be down.

 

There are so many plays like this that I'd like to hear what the coaches say. They know what the players were supposed to do and they watch the films and see whether the player did it. We all just speculate, except for the occasional poster who has some serious football experience - like years playing or coaching D-I.

 

Right. Not the way the coaches look at it, but you're right.

 

The important point, however, is that the players' jobs on that play was to avoid the turnover to preserve the scoring opportunity. They failed.

I agree about the coaches. But sometimes I wonder if we overanalyze what QBs do. Sometimes they throw in a split second and then accuracy will be a little off.

[Shaw66]

I agree about the coaches. But sometimes I wonder if we overanalyze what QBs do. Sometimes they throw in a split second and then accuracy will be a little off.

That's generally true but it's also the difference between average play and great play. Taylor's job is to be accurate. He wasn't rushed. He missed by 4 or 5 feet too high. That is not NFL accuracy at the highest level.

 

And his job is to be sure that whatever else happens there us not a turnover. He put it in a position that led to a turnover.

 

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but these guys are measured against perfection. Taylor wasn't perfect here.

[oldmanfan]

That's generally true but it's also the difference between average play and great play. Taylor's job is to be accurate. He wasn't rushed. He missed by 4 or 5 feet too high. That is not NFL accuracy at the highest level.

 

And his job is to be sure that whatever else happens there us not a turnover. He put it in a position that led to a turnover.

 

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but these guys are measured against perfection. Taylor wasn't perfect here.

See your point. Also felt Clay could have caught it. My pews wee coach always used to tell us if your can get your hands on it you should catch it.

 

Overall a solid, workmanlike victory. TT is what he is, I tend to embrace the unique things about him like his running ability and live with the negatives.

[Shaw66]

See your point. Also felt Clay could have caught it. My pews wee coach always used to tell us if your can get your hands on it you should catch it.

 

Overall a solid, workmanlike victory. TT is what he is, I tend to embrace the unique things about him like his running ability and live with the negatives.

I'm more hopeful about TT than that. I'm not convinced he has any serious negatives. I think he will continue to get better and by the time his legs give out he may have the kind of savvy that Brees has.

 

That throw wasn't a good throw, but there weren't many others in that category on Sunday. I calculated his passer rating if he'd completed that pass for a TD, and it would have been in the 120s or 130s. I posted it somewhere. That shows how good his day was. When you add the impact of his running, I don't see anything I'd call a negative.

[oldmanfan]

I'm more hopeful about TT than that. I'm not convinced he has any serious negatives. I think he will continue to get better and by the time his legs give out he may have the kind of savvy that Brees has.

 

That throw wasn't a good throw, but there weren't many others in that category on Sunday. I calculated his passer rating if he'd completed that pass for a TD, and it would have been in the 120s or 130s. I posted it somewhere. That shows how good his day was. When you add the impact of his running, I don't see anything I'd call a negative.

I hope you're right.