row_33 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 8 minutes ago, DC Tom said: There's as many takes as there are people who've read Amazon's 10k. I spent about an hour going through it, and I found maybe five different numbers for "income," depending on what definition you want to use, and as many for "taxes." The only two things I'm sure of in this case is: 1) Amazon paid $957 in taxes - that's an explicit number, from their statement of cash flow, and 2) ITEP was being willfully mendacious in cherry-picking whatever numbers looked worst to support their agenda. It's a complicated business on corporate taxes for large corporations. It's nobodies business to make huge pronouncements unless they are authorized to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 26 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: Please provide a legitimate link. https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2018/02/27/tax-bill-troubles-for-the-gop/?utm_term=.0ec5f95cf197 Jennifer Rubin is a legit as you can get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: Are not interest rates still really low? BTW, Obama never did anything as stupid as try to start a trade war. You admit that, right? By historical standards, they are very low, but that isn't the issue. During Obama's term, they were below the inflation rate. That is historically accomodative. The trend is up, and that is necessary, as it's the first arrow in the FED's quiver to prevent, delay or mitigate the effect of the next, (inevitable), recession. Obama and his ilk were an anchor to US growth because of unnecessary, counterproductive regulatory burdens. Obama did plenty of really stupid things, in my view. He didn't start a trade war, and neither will Trump when the dust settles. What he did, and is obvious from some of your posts, is continue the Democrat thrust of demonizing American industry, unless it is in their state. Not to the level that Bernie or Elizabeth Warren would have, but a no doubt domestic economy anchor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 Just now, sherpa said: By historical standards, they are very low, but that isn't the issue. During Obama's term, they were below the inflation rate. That is historically accomodative. The trend is up, and that is necessary, as it's the first arrow in the FED's quiver to prevent, delay or mitigate the effect of the next, (inevitable), recession. Obama and his ilk were an anchor to US growth because of unnecessary, counterproductive regulatory burdens. Obama did plenty of really stupid things, in my view. He didn't start a trade war, and neither will Trump when the dust settles. What he did, and is obvious from some of your posts, is continue the Democrat thrust of demonizing American industry, unless it is in their state. Not to the level that Bernie or Elizabeth Warren would have, but a no doubt domestic economy anchor. Oh come on, admit it, Obama never did anything as stupid as threaten to create a trade war. Can't you just admit that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 32 minutes ago, row_33 said: It's a complicated business on corporate taxes for large corporations. It's nobodies business to make huge pronouncements unless they are authorized to do so. I am aware. As an investor, I've read plenty of SEC filings. I can read the basics of a balance sheet, cash flow statement, statement of earnings...but I've never made any real sense out of tax statements. That's why I quoted Amazon's "Cash paid for income tax, net of refunds" on their consolidated cash flow - that's an inarguable hard statement of "taxes paid," as opposed to "tax liability calculated by some obstruse mumbo-jumbo." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, DC Tom said: I am aware. As an investor, I've read plenty of SEC filings. I can read the basics of a balance sheet, cash flow statement, statement of earnings...but I've never made any real sense out of tax statements. That's why I quoted Amazon's "Cash paid for income tax, net of refunds" on their consolidated cash flow - that's an inarguable hard statement of "taxes paid," as opposed to "tax liability calculated by some obstruse mumbo-jumbo." that's a good source for public information. it tells somewhat of the story liberal media constantly has a list of people and companies who never pay any tax at all, a total crock of bull **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 minute ago, row_33 said: that's a good source for public information. it tells somewhat of the story liberal media constantly has a list of people and companies who never pay any tax at all, a total crock of bull **** Mostly because people think corporate income tax is just like personal income tax, and don't understand that even the use of accrual accounting alone makes corporate tax accounting very different, even before you get to the different laws and regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, DC Tom said: Mostly because people think corporate income tax is just like personal income tax, and don't understand that even the use of accrual accounting alone makes corporate tax accounting very different, even before you get to the different laws and regulations. I mostly think you are full crap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 "Double dumbass on you!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 12 minutes ago, DC Tom said: Mostly because people think corporate income tax is just like personal income tax, and don't understand that even the use of accrual accounting alone makes corporate tax accounting very different, even before you get to the different laws and regulations. look at tibs and others on here, there's not a topic they cannot claim definitive expertise in i haven't worked corporate tax accounts for a decade (thank goodness) it's a great target for moronic liberals to attack because it can't ever win Liberal: they didn't pay ANY!!!! tax Company: we paid hundreds of millions LIberal: THAT IS NOT YOUR FAIR SHARE Company: whatever.... it churns the resentment of every loser who feels sorry for himself, the masses the liberals count on for easy votes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 40 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Oh come on, admit it, Obama never did anything as stupid as threaten to create a trade war. Can't you just admit that? I think he did plenty wrong, second most important was creating an environment of burdensome, unnecessary regulation. First was being a divisive figure faking a good guy persona. I think Trump is an idiot. Losing Gary Cohn is a really big deal, in my view, and another unforced error. His thrust on this trade issue, in my view, is never going to result in anything really serious. It will be two weeks of media compost, then reasonable heads will prevail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 minute ago, sherpa said: I think he did plenty wrong, second most important was creating an environment of burdensome, unnecessary regulation. First was being a divisive figure faking a good guy persona. I think Trump is an idiot. Losing Gary Cohn is a really big deal, in my view, and another unforced error. His thrust on this trade issue, in my view, is never going to result in anything really serious. It will be two weeks of media compost, then reasonable heads will prevail. I agree Trump is an idiot and unqualified for office. Starting a trade war, or even just threatening one is just totally irresponsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 14 minutes ago, sherpa said: I think he did plenty wrong, second most important was creating an environment of burdensome, unnecessary regulation. First was being a divisive figure faking a good guy persona. I think Trump is an idiot. Losing Gary Cohn is a really big deal, in my view, and another unforced error. His thrust on this trade issue, in my view, is never going to result in anything really serious. It will be two weeks of media compost, then reasonable heads will prevail. Sherpa, people come and go with a White House admin all the time, always have and always will it's a collection of people with huge egos and thin skins, sometimes we feel that a person in the Admin is really really good for the US, then they leave for whatever reason and on it goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, row_33 said: Sherpa, people come and go with a White House admin all the time, always have and always will it's a collection of people with huge egos and thin skins, sometimes we feel that a person in the Admin is really really good for the US, then they leave for whatever reason and on it goes Understood and agree. Having the White House on your resume is a pretty desirable thing. If not for current value, then for family legacy. Gary Cohn didn't need the White House. There are two people that I have immense respect for, based on watching a lot of interviews with them. Paul Ryan is one, Gary Cohn is the other. I'm not sure if his plan wasn't to bail after the tax legislation got passed, but if it was, it was poorly handled, as it looks like the steel and aluminum tariffs tipped the scale. I hate to see it, because I don't think Trump can afford to lose much intellectual capital in advisory roles. Oh well....We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Sherpa, those are two good guys, there are several more, the longer Trump continues the more good ones will stop being afraid to admit this is a good Admin so far sometimes the Chairman is combative and runs his kingdom through antagonism and intrigue, it's not much fun it that isn't your kind of place to work at... I've been there a few times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 21 minutes ago, row_33 said: Sherpa, those are two good guys, there are several more, the longer Trump continues the more good ones will stop being afraid to admit this is a good Admin so far sometimes the Chairman is combative and runs his kingdom through antagonism and intrigue, it's not much fun it that isn't your kind of place to work at... I've been there a few times I get what you're saying. I think that Trump is getting on the wrong side of the free agency competition, and I don't think he's good enough without a lot of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, sherpa said: I get what you're saying. I think that Trump is getting on the wrong side of the free agency competition, and I don't think he's good enough without a lot of help. i don't have a clue what his view is, and he'll change it anyway if it's "good for business" up here in Canada the Liberal party talks tough on Free Trade and then kowtows in a picosecond, probably for the best in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, row_33 said: look at tibs and others on here, there's not a topic they cannot claim definitive expertise in i haven't worked corporate tax accounts for a decade (thank goodness) it's a great target for moronic liberals to attack because it can't ever win Liberal: they didn't pay ANY!!!! tax Company: we paid hundreds of millions LIberal: THAT IS NOT YOUR FAIR SHARE Company: whatever.... it churns the resentment of every loser who feels sorry for himself, the masses the liberals count on for easy votes 3 3 You have to look at macro statistics to see that corporations have bought our government and are !@#$ing the middle and working class over big time. A company could be paying millions in taxes but if it is profiting tens of billions then those millions are the equivalent of you paying $100 in taxes. Don't get fooled by sophistry. In 1952 corporations paid 33% of all taxes to the federal government, in 2013 that percentage was 9%. This isn't one company or one anecdotal evidence, either way, we are talking about holistic numbers that show that we have been giving away the biggest tax breaks to corporations for decades while our middle-class struggles. There has been a gigantic shift of the tax burden from corporations to the middle class. In 1980 the Top 1% of income earners earned 8.5% of the income in the nation and paid 19% of federal taxes. Now the top 1% earns about 20% of the income in the nation and pays 40% of federal taxes. Their burden has decreased slightly (And will decrease even more thanks to these stupid tax cuts) but for sake of this argument, it has stayed fairly the same. So who is picking up this slack that corporations have dropped? It's the middle class and the debt. We have gone into deep debt in this country and we don't really have nearly as much as we should. We waste money on these stupid wars instead of providing healthcare and debt relief for its citizens who are struggling. We have added trillions to the deficit to give corporations big tax breaks instead of investing in infrastructure (which would help make the movement of goods and services easier thus actually helping the economy while helping put working class people to work) and making our earned benifit systems fiscally solvent. What more evidence do you need to know that giving more and more to these companies and the top 1% of earners just isn't working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 15 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: You have to look at macro statistics to see that corporations have bought our government and are !@#$ing the middle and working class over big time. A company could be paying millions in taxes but if it is profiting tens of billions then those millions are the equivalent of you paying $100 in taxes. Don't get fooled by sophistry. In 1952 corporations paid 33% of all taxes to the federal government, in 2013 that percentage was 9%. This isn't one company or one anecdotal evidence, either way, we are talking about holistic numbers that show that we have been giving away the biggest tax breaks to corporations for decades while our middle-class struggles. There has been a gigantic shift of the tax burden from corporations to the middle class. In 1980 the Top 1% of income earners earned 8.5% of the income in the nation and paid 19% of federal taxes. Now the top 1% earns about 20% of the income in the nation and pays 40% of federal taxes. Their burden has decreased slightly (And will decrease even more thanks to these stupid tax cuts) but for sake of this argument, it has stayed fairly the same. So who is picking up this slack that corporations have dropped? It's the middle class and the debt. We have gone into deep debt in this country and we don't really have nearly as much as we should. We waste money on these stupid wars instead of providing healthcare and debt relief for its citizens who are struggling. We have added trillions to the deficit to give corporations big tax breaks instead of investing in infrastructure (which would help make the movement of goods and services easier thus actually helping the economy while helping put working class people to work) and making our earned benifit systems fiscally solvent. What more evidence do you need to know that giving more and more to these companies and the top 1% of earners just isn't working. no question that taxation for corporations is subject to negotiations and deals, many very unfair in any light the government sets up key industries for protection (the auto industry in Ontario) and gives all kinds of deals to the big boys i've sat in on all kinds of meetings for deals for setup and payment and getting out of failure to pay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: You have to look at macro statistics to see that corporations have bought our government and are !@#$ing the middle and working class over big time. A company could be paying millions in taxes but if it is profiting tens of billions then those millions are the equivalent of you paying $100 in taxes. Don't get fooled by sophistry. In 1952 corporations paid 33% of all taxes to the federal government, in 2013 that percentage was 9%. This isn't one company or one anecdotal evidence, either way, we are talking about holistic numbers that show that we have been giving away the biggest tax breaks to corporations for decades while our middle-class struggles. There has been a gigantic shift of the tax burden from corporations to the middle class. In 1980 the Top 1% of income earners earned 8.5% of the income in the nation and paid 19% of federal taxes. Now the top 1% earns about 20% of the income in the nation and pays 40% of federal taxes. Their burden has decreased slightly (And will decrease even more thanks to these stupid tax cuts) but for sake of this argument, it has stayed fairly the same. So who is picking up this slack that corporations have dropped? It's the middle class and the debt. We have gone into deep debt in this country and we don't really have nearly as much as we should. We waste money on these stupid wars instead of providing healthcare and debt relief for its citizens who are struggling. We have added trillions to the deficit to give corporations big tax breaks instead of investing in infrastructure (which would help make the movement of goods and services easier thus actually helping the economy while helping put working class people to work) and making our earned benifit systems fiscally solvent. What more evidence do you need to know that giving more and more to these companies and the top 1% of earners just isn't working. Businesses don't pay taxes. Businesses look at taxes as nothing more than a budgetary line item, and pass their tax burden along to the consumer in the form of higher prices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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