Coaches not the talent...

[BuffAlone]

This offense would do well to look average.

 

Players should be asked to do what they do well. Not to fit into schemes revolving around things they don't do well.

I agree. My point is there is no time to coach these days. Its what have you done for me lately?. And therefore drafting is a joke nowadays.Player development, etc. NFL players are the most disadvantaged players in sports in the coaching department IMO. The difference in scheme and technique/position is the biggest waste of talent of all the big 4 sports...hockey 2nd

[Boatdrinks]

Do you expect coaches to come in and try something they have never done? Not every coach is as knowledgeable as a common bills fan when it comes to football.

No. But at the level of football they are at, one would imagine they have seen/ run most everything. It's football, not mapping DNA. These guys are supposed to know football. Wade Phillips is a great coach and runs whatvhis players are best suited to, give or take a key piece here and there.

[KellyToughII]

Okay. After 17 years of no playoffs, I am now convinced that in the past 11 of them, it has been entirely the coaching and not the talent. Since Jauron, we have managed to have a playoff caliber team on one side of the ball every year, but can't put it together

 

06-09 Jauron/Fewell defense solid each year, offense is totally inept.

10-12 Gailey puts up a solid offense despite lack of talent, yet talent filled defense is flat out awful (Wannstedt's year being the worst)

13-14 Defense good again - Pettine/Schwarz. Enter Nathaniel Hackett - ugly, ugly, ugly

15-16 Offense again playoff caliber in spite of average QB, Rex - what have you done to our defense...

17 Looks like the Defense will be good again, but what happened to our offense (mostly the same talent as last year). Dennison is not picking the right plays to exploit our players. (reckon it is only pre-season, but I see the outcome already)

 

I am not saying that in any of the years we had an unbelievable talent on either side of the ball, but the talent was always good enough to get 10-11 wins and make the playoffs with decent coaching. Why is it that we can only ever get one side right? Tyrod might not be great, but you stick him in the offense we ran the past two years under Roman/Lynn and we are a playoff team with this defense.

 

Can someone please explain to me why we can't get this right?

 

Its both, mostly the talent. It has always be vastly over hyped and thought of. Butler, imho, intentionally tanked his last draft here as a screw you to Ralph Wilson. Since then we have had crap for GM's.

 

21 year folks and we STILL haven't found or rightly addressed a Franchise QB. Jim Kelly retired in 96'. Think on that. Nothing but a parade of career backups as best, including Tyrod, that only in Buffalo would fans clamor they could be franchise QB's

[Woodman19]

As complexity goes up, so does the IQ needed on the field. These are athletes, not PhD's we're talking about here.

[Boatdrinks]

its both, lack of good coaching and a lack of talent.

 

Hate to break it to the Buffalo fans that severly overrate the talent on the team, but the Bills havent had good talent across the board in ages. Talent = throughout the roster, not just a couple big name players. That is why they fail to make the playoffs.

 

You need talent at spots 2, 3, 4 on the depth chart of each position because of the nature of injuries in the NFL. Having a shiny toy at #1 doesn't help you win consistently.

They have lacked talent in the past but not so much in recent years. It's actually been respectable. The days of having talent 2 or 3 deep across the board are long over. You can't keep everybody like in those pre FA days. You win with a top QB, some a few great playmakers on O , and a few defensive game changers. You just can't stockpile talent long term. The day of reckoning on depth players comes much sooner than it used to.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

The Buffalo Bills are like my golf game, never are all 3 phases good at the same time (Off/Def/ST vs Tee/Chipping/Putt). Often when I am golfing 2 might be doing good (usually 1 real good, and 1 ok), and one doing just awful enough to keep my score meh. And changes from round to round lol or even hole to hole. I can crush a drive then duff a chip. Or screw my drive up then hit a dart up onto the green.

 

Like the Bills...often, 2 phases will usually be just ok to good but the 3rd phase is so bad it keeps us from the playoffs. But its worse with the Bills, because that good unit or 2 also keeps us from being bad enough to get a really high draft pick and end up between 9 and 16 usually in the draft.

That's actually a good analogy and exactly what has been happening all this time. I will add that there are thousands of scratch golfers around the world who have equal talent to the guys who win on the Pro Tour. The difference between them is that the guys who win on the Pro Tour can make those seven foot putts under pressure with a schit ton of money on the line and thousands of people watching on Sunday on national TV and the other thousands of equal talent miss that putt.

 

The Bills have been full of equally talented players that just don't make the play when they need to most.

[mjt328]

Every coach insists on running his scheme in spite of the personnel and learning curve associated with the switch. We had the best running game last year, but insist on switching to a zone blocking scheme this year.

 

Two years ago, Rex had the perfect personnel for a 4-3 defense (that was #4 defense in the NFL the year prior), but insisted on dropping pass rushers into coverage in his 3-4 defense.

 

It seems it would be easier for an intelligent coach to adapt to an existing effective system than to teach 53 players the new coach's system. Just my 2¢.

 

FP

 

Not every coach.

 

The New England Patriots are the obvious and clear exception to the rule. Bill Belichick's ability to adapt scheme to player (and not vice versa) is the primary reason - possibly even more than having Tom Brady - that his teams have continued to have success for 15+ years straight. Mark my words. They will not miss Julian Edelman in the slightest. Because even if the team gets a drop-off in play from their backup slot receiver, they will simply shift to another focus on offense and keep on rolling.

 

There are many reasons for the Buffalo Bills managing THIS MANY YEARS without even making the playoffs. But lack of continuity is absolutely near the top of the list. We have clearly had enough talent at various times during the drought to pull off a wild card slot. But the constant merry-go-round with head coaches, coordinators and schemes just keeps us stuck in the mud.

 

It's only preseason, but the signs are already showing of this ridiculous cycle continuing. The offensive line, which has been solid for the last 2 years, is struggling badly with the new zone blocking. Tyrod Taylor looks very uncomfortable under center, and is regressing almost every snap he takes. Even the NFL's best running game is suddenly looking poor. As much as the defense looks improved (surprise, surprise after going back to 4-3), the offense clearly appears to be taking a step back. My guess is that our offense will cost us games early, Taylor will eventually get benched for the rookie, things still won't improve, and by years end Rick Dennison will be cast as the scapegoat. At which point, we will recycle offensive coordinators yet again.

[klos63]

That is what happens when you switch coaches every two years.

this is what it all comes down to, every thing else is crap every team has to deal with.

Edited August 29, 2017 by klos63

[Alphadawg7]

That is what happens when you switch coaches every two years.

 

Yeah, new coaches come in and clean house...For instance, can you imagine if Rex just kept Schwartz, I mean our D was the #4 ranked D when Rex took over. If he just said, hey, this guy is killing it we should retain him rather than completely scrap it for an entirely different system. Schwartz D with the Offense we had the last 2 years would not only had us a playoff team both years, but we would have been a tough out in those playoffs. Devastating run game with a stout D is a recipe for success in the Playoffs.

 

But, that never happens...new regime comes in cleans house, then installs new schemes on both sides of the ball regardless if the personal fits it or not...then the GM cleans house on the roster too getting rid of previous talent that isn't as important to the new scheme. Then we fire the coaches and wish we had those players back because they would now fit the new regime coming in.

 

Its madness...which is why I am a big advocate of keeping talent rather than gutting every time we get a new coach.

 

I will say this, I have a lot of optimism for McD as a HC. That being said, I am quite concerned of how the offense has looked since trading Sammy and with the new OC. We havent looked good outside the first preseason game with Sammy here.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Okay. After 17 years of no playoffs, I am now convinced that in the past 11 of them, it has been entirely the coaching and not the talent. Since Jauron, we have managed to have a playoff caliber team on one side of the ball every year, but can't put it together

 

06-09 Jauron/Fewell defense solid each year, offense is totally inept.

10-12 Gailey puts up a solid offense despite lack of talent, yet talent filled defense is flat out awful (Wannstedt's year being the worst)

13-14 Defense good again - Pettine/Schwarz. Enter Nathaniel Hackett - ugly, ugly, ugly

15-16 Offense again playoff caliber in spite of average QB, Rex - what have you done to our defense...

17 Looks like the Defense will be good again, but what happened to our offense (mostly the same talent as last year). Dennison is not picking the right plays to exploit our players. (reckon it is only pre-season, but I see the outcome already)

 

I am not saying that in any of the years we had an unbelievable talent on either side of the ball, but the talent was always good enough to get 10-11 wins and make the playoffs with decent coaching. Why is it that we can only ever get one side right? Tyrod might not be great, but you stick him in the offense we ran the past two years under Roman/Lynn and we are a playoff team with this defense.

 

Can someone please explain to me why we can't get this right?

 

The churn of schemes and coaches keeps causing roster reboots. But I firmly believe a combo of coaching talent and player talent and team chemistry give results.

 

The bills have waxed and waned on the three pillars individually, hence the historic streak.

 

I will say the greatest coaching minds on the planet wouldn't have made a winner out of the roster right before buddy Nix came along... even Ralph knew the team was devoid of any exceptional player outside of the Punter.

[SoTier]

 

Not every coach.

 

The New England Patriots are the obvious and clear exception to the rule. Bill Belichick's ability to adapt scheme to player (and not vice versa) is the primary reason - possibly even more than having Tom Brady - that his teams have continued to have success for 15+ years straight. Mark my words. They will not miss Julian Edelman in the slightest. Because even if the team gets a drop-off in play from their backup slot receiver, they will simply shift to another focus on offense and keep on rolling.

 

There are many reasons for the Buffalo Bills managing THIS MANY YEARS without even making the playoffs. But lack of continuity is absolutely near the top of the list. We have clearly had enough talent at various times during the drought to pull off a wild card slot. But the constant merry-go-round with head coaches, coordinators and schemes just keeps us stuck in the mud.

 

It's only preseason, but the signs are already showing of this ridiculous cycle continuing. The offensive line, which has been solid for the last 2 years, is struggling badly with the new zone blocking. Tyrod Taylor looks very uncomfortable under center, and is regressing almost every snap he takes. Even the NFL's best running game is suddenly looking poor. As much as the defense looks improved (surprise, surprise after going back to 4-3), the offense clearly appears to be taking a step back. My guess is that our offense will cost us games early, Taylor will eventually get benched for the rookie, things still won't improve, and by years end Rick Dennison will be cast as the scapegoat. At which point, we will recycle offensive coordinators yet again.

 

Excellent post, mjt. I will add 2 points to what you said.

1. Belichick, when he was HC in Cleveland and DC in New York, also got an awful lot out of whatever talent he had to work with because he devised offenses/defenses to fit his players' strengths. Remember, the Giants that beat the Bills in the Super Bowl, did so with a backup QB and a stout defense.
2. The offense in preseason bears a sickening resemblance to the great offenses that Jauron put on the field ... you remember the epic ones that lost 6-3 to Cleveland and 12-6 to the Niners at home? (//sarcasm off for the literally minded folks). Well, here we go again. I peg the over under for games where the Bills offense fails to score a TD at 6 myself.

 

My take on the situation that the Bills have been in for the past 17 years and look to still be mired in is that, yes, it is the coaches, but who hires the coaches? The suits in the FO, be that Russ Brandon or the ownership, have to take responsibility for hiring HCs who want/allow/insist on running their own schemes whether or not they fit the players. If they have a good defense -- as they had in 2014 -- then why hire a HC who wants to use another scheme that is likely to make most of your defense uncomfortable? There were no other candidates out there who favored the 3-4 defense? Maybe they weren't buffoons enough? Why was McDermott, who had only been a DC not a HC, given a blank slate to bring in an OC and position coaches who radically change the offense? The Bills couldn't have found another first time HC willing to build on the solid foundation the offense had???

 

In IT, most programmers/system administrators/managers subscribe to the maxim, "don't fix what ain't broke". The Bills need to adopt that saying as their mantra and hire in accordance with it.

[Fadingpain]

 

Yeah, new coaches come in and clean house...For instance, can you imagine if Rex just kept Schwartz, I mean our D was the #4 ranked D when Rex took over. If he just said, hey, this guy is killing it we should retain him rather than completely scrap it for an entirely different system. Schwartz D with the Offense we had the last 2 years would not only had us a playoff team both years, but we would have been a tough out in those playoffs. Devastating run game with a stout D is a recipe for success in the Playoffs.

 

But, that never happens...new regime comes in cleans house, then installs new schemes on both sides of the ball regardless if the personal fits it or not...then the GM cleans house on the roster too getting rid of previous talent that isn't as important to the new scheme. Then we fire the coaches and wish we had those players back because they would now fit the new regime coming in.

 

Its madness...which is why I am a big advocate of keeping talent rather than gutting every time we get a new coach.

 

I will say this, I have a lot of optimism for McD as a HC. That being said, I am quite concerned of how the offense has looked since trading Sammy and with the new OC. We havent looked good outside the first preseason game with Sammy here.

The problem is that most NFL coaches are...football coaches.

 

With some exceptions now and again, these guys just aren't that bright as a group, as measured by the standards of bright people in society at large.

 

They only know how to do it their way. Rex is a great example of this.

 

He is not a master philosopher of football. He is a one trick pony. And his trick ceased being effective about two decades ago.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

That is what happens when you switch coaches every two years.

 

...may come down to which dumpster you choose to dive head first into?.....ticket selling notoriety?....substance?....experience?....tree affiliation?...cost?......

[Samwell Tarly]

The trick as a coach is to survive until you can build your team, primarily through the draft. Roster turnover happens faster in the NFL now, but still takes more than 2 or 3 seasons. No Bills coach since Marv has lasted long enough to build an entire team of their guys. Its also hard for a coach to last beyond season 3 without a quality quarterback.

[reddogblitz]

The Bills have been full of equally talented players that just don't make the play when they need to most.

Good call Kelly. This is the Crux of the biscuit and has been throughout the drought. Chris Brown had a good article about it when we hired Coach Gailey. Nothing has changed.

 

Last year the difference between us and playoffs was Hotrod hitting Goodwin in EZ the play before the missed FG and getting into ez vs Hawks with 1st and Goal.

 

Meanwhile Fish get in because they beat us and Clowns in OT.

 

Maybe it's the coaching, the QB, not sure. Is it talent or a mental thing? Hopefully Coach McDermott has the answer.

The trick as a coach is to survive until you can build your team, primarily through the draft. Roster turnover happens faster in the NFL now, but still takes more than 2 or 3 seasons. No Bills coach since Marv has lasted long enough to build an entire team of their guys. Its also hard for a coach to last beyond season 3 without a quality quarterback.

Gase didn't have to do that. He took a dumpster fire and turned them into a playoff team in 1 year. Wade Phillips has done it. Marty Schottehiemer did it several times.

 

Bill Cowher was able to keep his job with the likes of Niel O'Donnell and Kordell Stewart.

[y2zipper]

Pittsburgh is an exception because as a matter of policy they never fire head coaches. Most fans just don't have enough patience to let a team development. The NFL really is a league that's top-heavy at the high-end of quarterbacks and the teams around the margins in the playoffs, like Miami and Houston, change each year. Changing coaches every 2-3 years almost always doesn't make sense and is only a way for a front-office higher-up to keep a job.

 

Most coaches should be building offenses around the strengths and limitations of their quarterbacks and then gutting every other position to find system fits and increase draft capital. Talent outside the QB position is so replaceable in the league that any other way of going about it doesn't make sense unless you have Belichick, but other coaches shouldn't really be judged by that standard. The trick really is surviving until you get an excellent quarterback and then going from there. Any playoff appearance would do this for a Bills coach.

[BobbyC81]

Every coach insists on running his scheme in spite of the personnel and learning curve associated with the switch. We had the best running game last year, but insist on switching to a zone blocking scheme this year.

 

Two years ago, Rex had the perfect personnel for a 4-3 defense (that was #4 defense in the NFL the year prior), but insisted on dropping pass rushers into coverage in his 3-4 defense.

 

It seems it would be easier for an intelligent coach to adapt to an existing effective system than to teach 53 players the new coach's system. Just my 2¢.

 

FP

That's worth more than two cents. It's the $64 Million question. Gailey and Schwartz are about the only recent coaches to coach to the players' strengths. Gailey was the only one to get great production from C.J. Spiller . Others tried to foolishly run him off-tackle and up the middle. If Marques Goodwin can stay healthy ( big if we know), watch what Kyle Shanahan does with him.

 

Belechick uses his players' strengths but then takes it one step further by varying his game plans so th opposing team doesn't know what they're going to run. How many offensive coordinators have the Bills had where you can predict a good % of plays they're going to run? If we fans can do it, it's easy for the opposing coaches and players.

[BobDVA]

 

Not every coach.

 

The New England Patriots are the obvious and clear exception to the rule. Bill Belichick's ability to adapt scheme to player (and not vice versa) is the primary reason - possibly even more than having Tom Brady - that his teams have continued to have success for 15+ years straight. Mark my words. They will not miss Julian Edelman in the slightest. Because even if the team gets a drop-off in play from their backup slot receiver, they will simply shift to another focus on offense and keep on rolling.

 

There are many reasons for the Buffalo Bills managing THIS MANY YEARS without even making the playoffs. But lack of continuity is absolutely near the top of the list. We have clearly had enough talent at various times during the drought to pull off a wild card slot. But the constant merry-go-round with head coaches, coordinators and schemes just keeps us stuck in the mud.

 

It's only preseason, but the signs are already showing of this ridiculous cycle continuing. The offensive line, which has been solid for the last 2 years, is struggling badly with the new zone blocking. Tyrod Taylor looks very uncomfortable under center, and is regressing almost every snap he takes. Even the NFL's best running game is suddenly looking poor. As much as the defense looks improved (surprise, surprise after going back to 4-3), the offense clearly appears to be taking a step back. My guess is that our offense will cost us games early, Taylor will eventually get benched for the rookie, things still won't improve, and by years end Rick Dennison will be cast as the scapegoat. At which point, we will recycle offensive coordinators yet again.

This^

[folz]

I still think this comes down to continuity. Finding a coach who can come in, look at 53 men, with 53 different skill sets and devise a scheme

that fits each of their best abilities is like finding that elusive franchise QB. There are only so many of them at any one time in the league. Yes,

Bill Belichick seems to be able to do it and maybe there are a few more coaches that can, but that too is a rare talent. And even Belichick is

bringing in players that fit "The Patriot Way." But, for the sake of argument, sure, that is one way to win. Have one of the best coaches in the league.

 

Another way to win is to have continuity. A stable FO and coaching staff who have a system they believe in and then giving them enough time (more than 2 years) to build their roster. Once you get through the turmoil, if the system is sound, then you have a roster built for that system and you can continue to draft and bring in players that fit and then you don't have to worry if someone fits the system or not. No one is here if they don't fit the system. And the coach doesn't have to be a genius, just a good leader/teacher with a solid, but somewhat adaptable scheme. I'm thinking of teams like Pittsburgh.

 

Yes, you must have good coaching...but this need to have a coach who can mold a system around his player's talents the way Belichick does

just comes from the constant turnover of coaches and schemes our franchise has seen. We like the talent and want it to be used properly, but the players also have to compliment each other as well as what the coaches are trying to do. Every coach will try to put his players in the best position to be successful, but building a team is, as we've been hearing, more than just accumulating talent. It is work ethic, buy in, the players talents complimenting each other, players fitting the schemes the coaches want to run, managing the cap, culture, always looking ahead, etc.

 

I agree with the OP that coaching has been bad throughout the drought, but so too has the FO, and the relationship between the FO and coaches and some years, the talent also. It hasn't been just one thing on its own. I think if we give this new FO and staff some time to build the team they want, in a year or two we won't be discussing guys that don't fit the system anymore or why the coach can't mold someone to fit or why a talented team continues to underachieve. They just won't be relevant questions anymore. I'm not saying it is a guarantee that these guys succeed, but I can guarantee that the playoff drought will continue if ownership isn't eventually patient with someone.

Edited August 30, 2017 by folz

[billsfan714]

That's worth more than two cents. It's the $64 Million question. Gailey and Schwartz are about the only recent coaches to coach to the players' strengths. Gailey was the only one to get great production from C.J. Spiller . Others tried to fi thoolishly run him off-tackle and up the middle. If Marques Goodwin can stay healthy ( big if we know), watch what Kyle Shanahan does with him.

 

Belechick uses his players' strengths but then takes it one step further by varying his game plans so th opposing team doesn't know what they're going to run. How many offensive coordinators have the Bills had where you can predict a good % of plays they're going to run? If we fans can do it, it's easy for the opposing coaches and players.

I think Gailey was a distinct sign of what is and had been wrong as you described with system and coaches. Gailey was the poster boy of what direction to not take this club. You had friggin beastmode and Freddie and you want a waterbug? How about not injured/benched Stevie and the free agents at WR combined with no clue on defense. I get synergy or whatever you want to call it between the coach and GM, but ultimately it has to be someone with final say. To tell the coach Im improving this unit with the early picks and I will get you a water bug in the later rounds. Im not building my team around a rb when Im loaded at rb.