26CornerBlitz Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 With the exception of Watkins the players you mentioned were not players that were influential players. Kujo? He was a draft mistake. Darby? After a stellar rookie year he not only was a liability last year he was also not suited for McDermott's zone scheme. Ragland also didn't fit the coach's system. Whether the players listed would have remained with a different coach doesn't change the fact that they weren't the type of players whose replacements couldn't play as well or better. You and others are trying to portray the situation that without the departed players this team was on the verge of breaking through the wall of irrelevance. Stop it! The team that Whaley assembled was at best perennial mediocre teams fighting to be a fringe wild-card team. That might be good enough for you but not for me. The one thing that I like what McDermott/Beane are doing is accumulating picks to build a better roster. That is certainly a better long-term approach than gratuitously giving away picks to get fewer players who will still not get this team over the hump of wretched mediocrity. This is not a quick fix. And the ugly truth is that there was never going to be a fix as long as the organization functioned as it has over the past generation or slow. I'll take the McDermott more strategic roster busting approach than the Whaley patchwork approach that has gotten us nowhere but stuck in the muck of mediocrity. When you have two head coaches forced on you Marrone and Rex with 3 DCs in four years (Pettine, Schwartz, and Rex/Rob Ryan), it's hard to hang the patchwork approach on the guy when he was trying to accommodate the systems the coaches wanted to employ. McDermott and Beane won't have the luxury of any excuses as they are fully empowered to make all football related decisions. They are making bold decisions and hopefully they'll be right.
JohnC Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 When you have two head coaches forced on you Marrone and Rex with 3 DCs in four years (Pettine, Schwartz, and Rex/Rob Ryan), it's hard to hang the patchwork approach on the guy when he was trying to accommodate the systems the coaches wanted to employ. McDermott and Beane won't have the luxury of any excuses as they are fully empowered to make all football related decisions. They are making bold decisions and hopefully they'll be right. I agree with you that it was unfair to Whaley to not allow him to pick his own HC. Where I will harshly criticize him is his passivity in finding a qb, either through the draft or free agency. There was no excuse for his lack of focus on the most important personnel decision that is decisive in being successful or not. On that issue the onus was on him. Regardless who the HC was that was foisted on him he had the authority to draft a credible qb. He repeatedly passed when the opportunities were there. That is a failure of his own making.
Jauronimo Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 When you have two head coaches forced on you Marrone and Rex with 3 DCs in four years (Pettine, Schwartz, and Rex/Rob Ryan), it's hard to hang the patchwork approach on the guy when he was trying to accommodate the systems the coaches wanted to employ. McDermott and Beane won't have the luxury of any excuses as they are fully empowered to make all football related decisions. They are making bold decisions and hopefully they'll be right. On the bright side, after Nix selected Troupe, Carrington, Batten, and Moats to play in George Edward's new 34 D, only to abandon it in favor of Wannastache's fit it up 43 is Mike defense, the Whaley to Beane transition looks like a success story.
JohnC Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 The Bills have been stuck in the muck of mediocrity because of fitting square pegs in round holes. Case in point Rex and his defense the last two years. Instead of adjusting his scheme to the players available McDermott is doing the same thing, except jettisoning players that don't fit his scheme rather then being flexible and adjusting the scheme to the TALENTED players available. This offense is going to fall off a cliff thanks to the above strategy. Had they built on the offense and focused on fixing the defense through better scheme/coaching this team could easily be a playoff team. Instead they are doing the same **** we've seen their predecessors do in the past. With respect to the highlighted segment I strenuously disagree with your assessment on how good this roster was. The roster that Whaley assembled was built to be no better than a .500 team. The team that wrestling coach inherited was not near being a playoff team. At least now we have a HC and GM who are in sync. There is no quick fix. Instead of gratuitously giving up picks this new tandem are accumulating picks to bolster a very thin roster. That is the right approach to take and it is the smart approach to take.
bobobonators Posted August 29, 2017 Author Posted August 29, 2017 On the bright side, after Nix selected Troupe, Carrington, Batten, and Moats to play in George Edward's new 34 D, only to abandon it in favor of Wannastache's fit it up 43 is Mike defense, the Whaley to Beane transition looks like a success story. HAHA
stinky finger Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 I don't understand the optimism for this great new plan and foundation that's going to result in a winning franchise in 2-3 years. What has this current FO and coaching staff done to warrant such unabashed optimism and confidence? Other than dump half the players on the team and roll out of the gate wth pretty abyssal performances in 3 consecutive preseason games, where's this confidence that all is right in the world coming from? I don't get it either. Clearly, we were on the right path.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 I agree with you that it was unfair to Whaley to not allow him to pick his own HC. Where I will harshly criticize him is his passivity in finding a qb, either through the draft or free agency. There was no excuse for his lack of focus on the most important personnel decision that is decisive in being successful or not. On that issue the onus was on him. Regardless who the HC was that was foisted on him he had the authority to draft a credible qb. He repeatedly passed when the opportunities were there. That is a failure of his own making. No excuse at all with regard to not properly addressing the QB issue. On the bright side, after Nix selected Troupe, Carrington, Batten, and Moats to play in George Edward's new 34 D, only to abandon it in favor of Wannastache's fit it up 43 is Mike defense, the Whaley to Beane transition looks like a success story.
BringBackOrton Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 Watkins.....starter Darby........starter Shaq.........starter Preston Brown....starter John Miller.....starter I'm no mathematician but.......that's more than 3 starters from 3 drafts.......no? Seems more like 5 of a possible 8 picks in the first 3 rounds of the previous 3 drafts starting in the NFL......and also with Kujo having started and played well for the Bills last year......Ragnuts and Adolphus jury still out on as NFL players. Say what you want about Whaley but his drafts have yielded a lot of NFL players that have maintained jobs in the league........this was brought up in a recent thread. His main issues were being QB blind and having a weak personality that couldn't convince an owner to let him choose his own HC.......the latter of which no doubt lead to having to choose 3 "need" players for Rex in 2016 in what I called an "uninspired" draft class. If you draft a "starter" because your position is empty, that doesn't make it a good pick. EJ was a "starter" at one point too.
Jauronimo Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 With respect to the highlighted segment I strenuously disagree with your assessment on how good this roster was. The roster that Whaley assembled was built to be no better than a .500 team. The team that wrestling coach inherited was not near being a playoff team. At least now we have a HC and GM who are in sync. There is no quick fix. Instead of gratuitously giving up picks this new tandem are accumulating picks to bolster a very thin roster. That is the right approach to take and it is the smart approach to take. They will be bolstering a thin roster which they made thin by trading talent for picks.
stinky finger Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 With respect to the highlighted segment I strenuously disagree with your assessment on how good this roster was. The roster that Whaley assembled was built to be no better than a .500 team. The team that wrestling coach inherited was not near being a playoff team. At least now we have a HC and GM who are in sync. There is no quick fix. Instead of gratuitously giving up picks this new tandem are accumulating picks to bolster a very thin roster. That is the right approach to take and it is the smart approach to take. Spot on
bobobonators Posted August 29, 2017 Author Posted August 29, 2017 If you draft a "starter" because your position is empty, that doesn't make it a good pick. EJ was a "starter" at one point too. Darby was named rookie of the year by PFF. Yes, it's PFF, but Darby had an awesome Rookie season. He had a bad year 2. However, the circus that was Rex I'm sure didn't help anyone development. To give up on a player like that is ridiculous. He's 23 years old. Miller has been solid on the O-line and was a part of an Oline that dominated the league in the run game. Watkins has the potential to be a perennial pro bowler. None of those 3 players are "EJ bad"
Helpmenow Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 1. We gave up a 2015 1st round pick and 2015 4th round pick to move up and get Watkins. He is gone 3yrs later and missed like 30% of his games. 2. Cyrus was our 2nd round pick in 2014. He is an abomination. 3. Our first pick in 2015 was 2nd round pick Darby. He is gone 2 years later. 4. Our 2nd pick in 2015, 3rd rounder John Miller, is barely a starter and may get beat out by Ducasse, who is horrible. 5. Our 3rd pick in 2015, 5th rounder Karlos Williams isn't even in the NFL anymore. So to recap: We missed on our 2014 1st round pick; we gave up our 2015 1st round pick; we missed on our 2014 2nd round pick; we missed on our 2015 2nd round pick; we missed on our 2015 3rd round pick. The 2014-2015 draft classes have set this team back at least 5 years. A blind monkey could have thrown darts at the draft board and had more success. depressing
JohnC Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 They will be bolstering a thin roster which they made thin by trading talent for picks. Ragland and Darby were not good fits for the new coach's system. Players are going to be added who fit the system and players are going to be discarded who don't. At least this new regime is adding picks instead of giving away picks. I'll say it again that the roster that McDermott inherited was not as good as many are portraying it to be. It wasn't even close to being a playoff team.
Jauronimo Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 Ragland and Darby were not good fits for the new coach's system. Players are going to be added who fit the system and players are going to be discarded who don't. At least this new regime is adding picks instead of giving away picks. I'll say it again that the roster that McDermott inherited was not as good as many are portraying it to be. It wasn't even close to being a playoff team. Yet it was a team that was in the hunt the last two years. I don't know how you can say not even close, when they were pretty f#@$infg close the last two seasons.
JohnC Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 Yet it was a team that was in the hunt the last two years. I don't know how you can say not even close, when they were pretty f#@$infg close the last two seasons. Close to what? You are either good enough to quality for the playoffs or not. Because the league is designed for parity 50% or more of the teams are close to making the playoffs. The Bills have not been in the playoffs for a generation. Close enough to not qualify is not an achievement I would brag about. Almost getting to your destination is not getting to your destination.
stinky finger Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 You want to assemble draft picks? Great. Trading young talented players to get those picks makes little sense. Disagree. You fix the defense with the same offense from last year and this team is right in the middle of a wildcard fight. How bout fitting your scheme to the TALENTED players available? Something I wish one Bills coach would understand. One day. That team was on the road to Nowheresville, USA - man. Close to what? You are either good enough to quality for the playoffs or not. Because the league is designed for parity 50% or more of the teams are close to making the playoffs. The Bills have not been in the playoffs for a generation. Close enough to not qualify is not an achievement I would brag about. Almost getting to your destination is not getting to your destination. go on - I'm listening.
Jauronimo Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 Close to what? You are either good enough to quality for the playoffs or not. Because the league is designed for parity 50% or more of the teams are close to making the playoffs. The Bills have not been in the playoffs for a generation. Close enough to not qualify is not an achievement I would brag about. Almost getting to your destination is not getting to your destination. Ok. If you think its either in or out, why did you introduce how close they were to qualifying for the playoffs into the discussion? Can't have it both ways.
GG Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 Darby was named rookie of the year by PFF. Yes, it's PFF, but Darby had an awesome Rookie season. He had a bad year 2. However, the circus that was Rex I'm sure didn't help anyone development. To give up on a player like that is ridiculous. He's 23 years old. Miller has been solid on the O-line and was a part of an Oline that dominated the league in the run game. Watkins has the potential to be a perennial pro bowler. None of those 3 players are "EJ bad" In that same breath, EJ Gaines had a stellar rookie year and had a good game last week, unlike Darby. Again, other than Sammy, none of the moves are too puzzling and we haven't seen Matthews yet. People are getting up in arms about a high draft pick who could barely hang with the 3s. How do you think the players will respond to a coach who's actually awarding roster spots based on ability and not pedigree?
bobobonators Posted August 29, 2017 Author Posted August 29, 2017 You want to assemble draft picks? Great. Trading young talented players to get those picks makes little sense. Disagree. You fix the defense with the same offense from last year and this team is right in the middle of a wildcard fight. How bout fitting your scheme to the TALENTED players available? Something I wish one Bills coach would understand. One day. This is about 85% of my argument and this falls on ownership. When ownership interviews potential GM's/coaches and they discuss the plans for the team, if the GM starts saying Darby, Sammy, Ragland, etc. don't fit into their plans, then you seriously need to consider WTF the plan is going to be going forward In that same breath, EJ Gaines had a stellar rookie year and had a good game last week, unlike Darby. Again, other than Sammy, none of the moves are too puzzling and we haven't seen Matthews yet. People are getting up in arms about a high draft pick who could barely hang with the 3s. How do you think the players will respond to a coach who's actually awarding roster spots based on ability and not pedigree? Ragland is 23 and just came off a major injury. Even if he doesn't start immediately, is his upside any worse than a 4th round draft pick in....2019??
Boatdrinks Posted August 29, 2017 Posted August 29, 2017 With respect to the highlighted segment I strenuously disagree with your assessment on how good this roster was. The roster that Whaley assembled was built to be no better than a .500 team. The team that wrestling coach inherited was not near being a playoff team. At least now we have a HC and GM who are in sync. There is no quick fix. Instead of gratuitously giving up picks this new tandem are accumulating picks to bolster a very thin roster. That is the right approach to take and it is the smart approach to take. It was an average roster with the potential to be above average if the recent high draft picks blossomed. They were dumped before we could find out, and it is now a decidedly below average roster. With lots of low round picks to replace the players that were drafted with high picks . But the new HC and GM are " n'sync" ( in the same way the old GM was in sync with a different HC whose scheme was the next big thing every 3 years or so) so chances are good that the players they draft with those low picks will be better than players that were ranked highly in previous drafts . You'd better hope so, because 4th and 5th rounders will be starting for this team in the future where 1st and second rounders were slotted in before. Welcome to the future as envisioned by McBeane.
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