HappyDays Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 It was not a weird example at all. People thought Tuel was a starter in this league based on his preseason play. There are threads on this board talking about how he should start. Guess what he is not even a decent QB. People are talking about Peterson as a starter, based on his preseason play. See the parallel? And, people who are "impressed" by Peterson must have been absolutely blown away by Tuels play seeing as he arguably looked better than Peterson, in preseason, as a rookie. But yea, weird example. Again, Jeff Tuel hasn't been in the league in 2 years, Manual still is and looks like he has solidified the backup job in Oakland. So yea, they were far off. Manual may have not been starter material but he is still far and away a much better QB than Jeff Tuel. Tuel did deserve time with the the first-team offense because the QB spot should always be an open competition until you have someone. He did not end up deserving to be a starter, that doesn't mean his chance wasn't warranted. No one is saying Peterman will end up successful, but he's also shown enough to get a shot at some point. He's still far below a 50/50 probability of becoming a long-term starter. If he's worse than Tyrod, oh well, that means we're drafting one high next year. And I still have hope Tyrod can look good in the real offense. I have my doubts that the offense we've seen so far is what it will really look like.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 Well, let's see. The game Taylor didn't play in 2016 was the last game against the Jets, which featured an offense led by Manuel and a team eliminated from contention. Oh, and I think McCoy got injured in that game early as well. So that might have had an effect on their YPC. In 2015 they played against the #7 rush defense in Cincy without Taylor. Making the argument that Taylor's loss had a big impact on the run game in that situation is tenuous IMO. The game that makes your point is the London game against the Jags, which McCoy averaged 3.8. I'm inclined to agree that not having Taylor mattered there, as it's the single outlier that makes your point somewhat palatable. The facts are the facts. We can try to find reasons for why they are what they are. The point remains that those are the numbers without Tyrod. The Bills have not been a good rushing team.
Magox Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 It's not untrue either. We aren't a knowledgable fan base. A lot of it comes from the the years of bad football. We don't play good football in WNY. The % of people that play is comparatively small. Our media doesn't know the game. We don't have another team that is followed (with respect to UB). We watch and understand football less than most other parts of the country. Kirby, it doesn't come off well in the context of this discussion. Even if you find some people's views to be unreasonable, that is nothing new when it comes to people's opinions. Having unreasonable views is an age-old pastime for any sort of discussion among people and it most certainly is nothing new or having to do with people being less knowledgeable, if anything people have more access to statistics, live stream games, analytics etc at any time in history and that trend will only continue. Keep making your case if you feel that passionately about it but there really isn't a need to essentially belittle them as a bunch of know-nothings simply because they don't view things the way you do. It's not a good look.
Albwan Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 Honestly at this point I really don't care...17 years of hilarity and benny hill type football has numbed me. I'm a bills fan out of habit, however I just cant see see the forest for the trees anymore. The organization to me feels like the train wreck i'm finally able to look away from.
GoBills808 Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 The facts are the facts. We can try to find reasons for why they are what they are. The point remains that those are the numbers without Tyrod. The Bills have not been a good rushing team. And you don't think that McCoy being injured for one of those games without Taylor has any bearing? And you're lecturing people about being stupid? Come on, all I hear about this board is it being the deep end and yet when the football talk starts it's like wading in piss. Disappointing to say the least.
Big Gun Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 When you say he was terrible the last two seasons, that is dishonest posting. Look in the mirror when you say he was good.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 Kirby, it doesn't come off well in the context of this discussion. Even if you find some people's views to be unreasonable, that is nothing new when it comes to people's opinions. Having unreasonable views is an age-old pastime for any sort of discussion among people and it most certainly is nothing new or having to do with people being less knowledgeable, if anything people have more access to statistics, live stream games, analytics etc at any time in history and that trend will only continue. Keep making your case if you feel that passionately about it but there really isn't a need to essentially belittle them as a bunch of know-nothings simply because they don't view things the way you do. It's not a good look. Not trying to belittle anyone. I think that we'd all agree that the level of conversation regarding the Bills has regressed. I'm not talking about anyone in particular. There are a lot of reasons that I named. It's the same reasons that hockey fans in Buffalo are light years ahead of Raleigh as an example. We grew up playing the game, watching the game, our media has superior hockey knowledge and we watch a lot of it comparatively. I didn't think that would offend people. As I said, it isn't untrue. And you don't think that McCoy being injured for one of those games without Taylor has any bearing? And you're lecturing people about being stupid? Come on, all I hear about this board is it being the deep end and yet when the football talk starts it's like wading in piss. Disappointing to say the least. McCoy has been the Bills best player since he got here. He's been one of (if not the) best players since the Super Bowl year. No one is arguing otherwise.
billsfan60 Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 I agree vote split right down the middle ,but half of us are stupid ... forgot to add "and all them gol durned Peteymon voturs is frum BBMB" (just to complete how silly the whole conversation is at this point)
Wayne Cubed Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 Tuel did deserve time with the the first-team offense because the QB spot should always be an open competition until you have someone. He did not end up deserving to be a starter, that doesn't mean his chance wasn't warranted. No one is saying Peterman will end up successful, but he's also shown enough to get a shot at some point. He's still far below a 50/50 probability of becoming a long-term starter. If he's worse than Tyrod, oh well, that means we're drafting one high next year. And I still have hope Tyrod can look good in the real offense. I have my doubts that the offense we've seen so far is what it will really look like. No he didn't, and he only got his shot because of an injury, to Thad Lewis and then never got a shot again. Fans thought he deserved a shot, the coaching staff never thought that, which is why they brought in Thad Lewis instead of playing Tuel when Manual was hurt. If Tuel deserved a shot they would have played him. Seriously, do you not remember the situation?
JM2009 Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 Look in the mirror when you say he was good. I've never said he was good. You say that I and others say that when that is not true. You keep saying that, but he also has been far from terrible. he's been better than most of the QBs we have had this century.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) I can understand wanting Peterman to an extent with this new offense. But to say TT was terrible the last two seasons-I have to wonder what people are thinking or watching. Or why they have an agenda of hate against the guy. ...he was not terrible IMO.....BUT his top ten Bills "O" ranking led to 7-9......don't get me wrong here.....the Wrecks defense unraveling played a role....how many times does BB preach about winning all three phases of the game?.....problem is Pats can win batting .667 with one phase lagging.....Buffalo cannot consistently depend on the offense week in and week out when or if called upon.....passing component is woefully inconsistent.... Edited August 27, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy
GoBills808 Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 McCoy has been the Bills best player since he got here. He's been one of (if not the) best players since the Super Bowl year. No one is arguing otherwise. But you ARE trying to make the case that our run game is more a product of Taylor than of McCoy. But you can't sell that because it's counterintuitive and completely backward. So let's just acknowledge how great McCoy has been and pretend we never had this argument. You can go back to telling us how stupid we are, and the TBD world keeps on turning.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) But you ARE trying to make the case that our run game is more a product of Taylor than of McCoy. But you can't sell that because it's counterintuitive and completely backward. So let's just acknowledge how great McCoy has been and pretend we never had this argument. You can go back to telling us how stupid we are, and the TBD world keeps on turning.I'm not trying to make that argument at all. I am saying that the Bills ELITE running game has a lot of factors. McCoy, the OL, the FB, receivers blocking, the scheme and the threat of Tyrod all play a role. We will see it regress this year. It isn't because McCoy is worse or Tyrod or the OL. We will have the exact same guys with Dawkins and Dimarco as additions and different receivers. The scheme isn't as good. Edited August 27, 2017 by Kirby Jackson
Big Gun Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 I've never said he was good. You say that I and others say that when that is not true. You keep saying that, but he also has been far from terrible. he's been better than most of the QBs we have had this century. Then what exactly is your argument about with people who don't see Tyrod as the answer?
HappyDays Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 No he didn't, and he only got his shot because of an injury, to Thad Lewis and then never got a shot again. Fans thought he deserved a shot, the coaching staff never thought that, which is why they brought in Thad Lewis instead of playing Tuel when Manual was hurt. If Tuel deserved a shot they would have played him. Seriously, do you not remember the situation? A coaching and/or front office staff in the NFL making a decision is not conclusive evidence that the decision was right. Far from it. I would almost go so far as to say the opposite is true.
harv shitz Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 I think you give the ball to the kid and see what he can do. He has actually moved them better the Tyrod, and did so last night. Chances are we aren't going anywhere this year, anyway, so why not let Peterman start, and play, and by the end of the year you should know if he's capable or not. What if he starts to play extremely well the last month, and they come on and play for him? Can you imagine the rapid improvement you can have next season if you don't have to pick a high round quarterback? Only way to know is to let him play. We know what we have in Taylor, and it's no different than what we've had for 20 years.
GoBills808 Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 I'm not trying to make that argument at all. I am saying that the Bills ELITE running game has a lot of factors. McCoy, the OL, the scheme and the threat of Tyrod all play a role. We will see it regress this year. It isn't because McCoy is worse or Tyrod or the OL. We will have the exact same guys (with Dawkins and Dimarco) as additions. The scheme isn't as good. OK, so when you said: Glad that you wanted to bring facts into the equation. Over the last 2 years the Bills have 79 carries for 295 yards and a fantastic 3.7 YPC in games that Tyrod didn't play. 2 of those 3 games were against teams that picked in the top 5 in the following draft. McCoy without Tyrod had 40 carries for 168 yards and 4.2 YPC in those games. That 3.7 YPC would have the Bills as the 28th best rushing offense. You don't believe that Tyrod is an important part of the running game?!?!?!? ...you WEREN'T trying to make the case that without Taylor we go from 1st to 28th in terms of rushing YPC? That we fall from the best to one of the worst rushing attacks in the league? You bring up our rush stats for games without Taylor, extrapolate them to make a point, and then back off and say that wasn't actually what you were trying to say? Come on, own it.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 OK, so when you said: ...you WEREN'T trying to make the case that without Taylor we go from 1st to 28th in terms of rushing YPC? That we fall from the best to one of the worst rushing attacks in the league? You bring up our rush stats for games without Taylor, extrapolate them to make a point, and then back off and say that wasn't actually what you were trying to say? Come on, own it. Read those words again or go back to old posts and see that I have said THE EXACT same thing on numerous occasions. Here is a similar take from July: https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/191879-teddy-bridgewater-expected-to-miss-all-of-2017-season/page-9 The Bills running game was great because it was a perfect storm. We no longer have that elite scheme. It will regress.
thebandit27 Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) Well, let's see. The game Taylor didn't play in 2016 was the last game against the Jets, which featured an offense led by Manuel and a team eliminated from contention. Oh, and I think McCoy got injured in that game early as well. So that might have had an effect on their YPC. In 2015 they played against the #7 rush defense in Cincy without Taylor. Making the argument that Taylor's loss had a big impact on the run game in that situation is tenuous IMO. The game that makes your point is the London game against the Jags, which McCoy averaged 3.8. I'm inclined to agree that not having Taylor mattered there, as it's the single outlier that makes your point somewhat palatable. Just FYI Cinci's run D in 2015 was bottom-10 in YPC allowed, so there's no outlier in Kirby's argument Edited August 27, 2017 by thebandit27
Wayne Cubed Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 A coaching and/or front office staff in the NFL making a decision is not conclusive evidence that the decision was right. Far from it. I would almost go so far as to say the opposite is true. Well when that decision turns out to be accurate I'd say it's pretty conclusive. They were correct about Tuel as much as a certain percentage of the fan base thought they were. But yea, coaching staffs and FOs get it wrong. I wouldn't go as far to say when they make a decision the opposite is true. I mean if that were the case then they'd be wrong about the Watkins trade, which as I recall you seemed to back.
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