Coach Tuesday Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Some great posts in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Agree 100%, and would like to add that my biggest concern about relative value is using a lot of draft equity to draft the best player at a position that had the biggest depth in a long time? Sammy was clearly at the top, but was he a 1st & 4th better than Evans or OBJ? I wanted Evans in 2014.... he was my guy. I believe the Bills liked him a lot as well. The Buffalo trade up talk basically coincided with very strong rumours about two weeks before the draft that Evans would not make it past Tampa. Where the Bills were wrong, in hindsight, was seeing a drop off between Watkins / Evans and OBJ. The problem is not who is the better qb but where do draft the qb. If a fourth round talent is taken in the first round that is a bad pick, no matter what the position is. The qbs in that mediocre draft class were not first round talent.. Buffalo was the foolish organization that reached while the other qbs were taken in the range where they were ranked from a talent standpoint. Whilst I agree with this.... I think you'd struggle to find 32 players in the 2013 draft across all positions who would have all been guaranteed to go in at least the top 3 rounds of any of the subsequent drafts. The 2013 class was just a sucky class.... beyond just QB. You can make an argument for saying if you are going to take a chance and reach on a QB in the 1st do it in a year where you are not passing up special talents to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) Whaley ranked the qbs in that draft class. But given that it doesn't mean that he ranked EJ as a first round value. When all is said and done what does it matter regarding who is mostly to blame for the selection? Whaley should have realized very soon that EJ was not a franchise qb and had his antenna up for a better option. He didn't. He lost his job. The fault is his. It's not really a matter of casting blame. I still think the Manuel pick was the right thing to do even with the benefit of hindsight. It's not as if some better qb was out there (it was a bad draft), and the draft overall was pretty lousy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_NFL_Draft More to the point, though, Whaley was really, really high on Manuel. He saw him as a Big Ben type. He was wrong, of course, but everyone makes mistakes. I don't fault him for it, really. Who was really worth taking at 16? Maybe Xavier Rhodes, but they were pretty solid at CB at that point. Maybe Eifert, but the Bills don't draft TEs early. Maybe DeAndre Hopkins, but as many have said here, that's putting the cart before the horse (they had no real qb). Other than that, there isn't much in the latter half of the first round that stands out. Edited August 21, 2017 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark80 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) People criticized the pick from the get go since a WRs success is largely dependent on who he has throwing in the ball. We had EJ Manuel. Watkins' talent was never in question. The decision to trade up for a WR in a deep class when we had garbage at QB was. This is such a load of crap. I hear this on WGR all the time too. What I remember after EJs first year and the off season when Sammy was drafted, was a time where many of us were encouraged by what we saw in EJ year 1 and were excited for what he was going to do in year 2. It is EXACTLY what he should have done, get him a go-to WR to grow with their entire careers. Unfortunately EJ got replaced by Orton way too soon, lost all of his confidence and imploded, but lets not pretend like that happened before the Sammy pick. He only really had one bad game his rookie year against Tampa. Edited August 21, 2017 by Mark80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 This is such a load of crap. I hear this on WGR all the time too. What I remember after EJs first year and the off season when Sammy was drafted, was a time where many of us were encouraged by what we saw in EJ year 1 and were excited for what he was going to do in year 2. It is EXACTLY what he should have done, get him a go-to WR to grow with their entire careers. Unfortunately EJ got replaced by Orton way too soon, lost all of his confidence and imploded, but lets not pretend like that happened before the Sammy pick. He only really had one bad game his rookie year against Tampa. Basically this...though he had 2 really bad games as a rookie--Tampa and Pittsburgh. Coincidentally, however, his 2 best games (home vs. NYJ and @Jax) came in each of the weeks that followed the two really bad games, which I (and others) felt portended well for his development. Unfortunately, as often happens with young QBs, DCs get an offseason of film on a guy and know how to take away what his innate skills allow him to do well. At that point, the player sinks or swims based on how well he can develop his secondary skills; EJ couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) It's not really a matter of casting blame. I still think the Manuel pick was the right thing to do even with the benefit of hindsight. It's not as if some better qb was out there (it was a bad draft), and the draft overall was pretty lousy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_NFL_Draft More to the point, though, Whaley was really, really high on Manuel. He saw him as a Big Ben type. He was wrong, of course, but everyone makes mistakes. I don't fault him for it, really. Who was really worth taking at 16? Maybe Xavier Rhodes, but they were pretty solid at CB at that point. Maybe Eifert, but the Bills don't draft TEs early. Maybe DeAndre Hopkins, but as many have said here, that's putting the cart before the horse (they had no real qb). Other than that, there isn't much in the latter half of the first round that stands out. I commend this post to the board. As I said above.... try finding 32 players from that draft who would even be guaranteed to go in the top 3 rounds of some of the drafts that have followed. Edited August 21, 2017 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 This is such a load of crap. I hear this on WGR all the time too. What I remember after EJs first year and the off season when Sammy was drafted, was a time where many of us were encouraged by what we saw in EJ year 1 and were excited for what he was going to do in year 2. It is EXACTLY what he should have done, get him a go-to WR to grow with their entire careers. Unfortunately EJ got replaced by Orton way too soon, lost all of his confidence and imploded, but lets not pretend like that happened before the Sammy pick. He only really had one bad game his rookie year against Tampa. EJ sucked out loud from day 1. He's gone now so it doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Basically this...though he had 2 really bad games as a rookie--Tampa and Pittsburgh. Coincidentally, however, his 2 best games (home vs. NYJ and @Jax) came in each of the weeks that followed the two really bad games, which I (and others) felt portended well for his development. Unfortunately, as often happens with young QBs, DCs get an offseason of film on a guy and know how to take away what his innate skills allow him to do well. At that point, the player sinks or swims based on how well he can develop his secondary skills; EJ couldn't. I thought he played poorly at the Jets game in NY. He took WAY too many sacks (8), which killed drive after drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 This is such a load of crap. I hear this on WGR all the time too. What I remember after EJs first year and the off season when Sammy was drafted, was a time where many of us were encouraged by what we saw in EJ year 1 and were excited for what he was going to do in year 2. It is EXACTLY what he should have done, get him a go-to WR to grow with their entire careers. Unfortunately EJ got replaced by Orton way too soon, lost all of his confidence and imploded, but lets not pretend like that happened before the Sammy pick. He only really had one bad game his rookie year against Tampa. It's really not crap though. EJ sucked long before he was replaced by Orton. You can tell yourself that you were encouraged by EJ as a QB but a lot of people were not. And saying Tampa was his only bad game as a rookie is laughable. People were excited about Watkins as a player but plenty hated the move to trade up for a WR in such a deep class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 This is such a load of crap. I hear this on WGR all the time too. What I remember after EJs first year and the off season when Sammy was drafted, was a time where many of us were encouraged by what we saw in EJ year 1 and were excited for what he was going to do in year 2. It is EXACTLY what he should have done, get him a go-to WR to grow with their entire careers. Unfortunately EJ got replaced by Orton way too soon, lost all of his confidence and imploded, but lets not pretend like that happened before the Sammy pick. He only really had one bad game his rookie year against Tampa. EJ was a terrible QB and it didn't matter if we did anything different, results would have still been the same. He, along with Losman had very low football IQ. He doesn't know when to put the ball on the rope, put touch on it, put some air under it etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 This is such a load of crap. I hear this on WGR all the time too. What I remember after EJs first year and the off season when Sammy was drafted, was a time where many of us were encouraged by what we saw in EJ year 1 and were excited for what he was going to do in year 2. It is EXACTLY what he should have done, get him a go-to WR to grow with their entire careers. Unfortunately EJ got replaced by Orton way too soon, lost all of his confidence and imploded, but lets not pretend like that happened before the Sammy pick. He only really had one bad game his rookie year against Tampa. What do you mean by the bolded? Was the decision done in a vacuum? You're ignoring the opinion of EJ's coach at the time. I don't think I've ever heard such lukewarm praise that Marrone had for Manuel during his rookie season, which concluded with a puzzling shutdown after a knee injury. In retrospect it was clear that Marrone never bought into Manuel's promise and has since been proven right. The much maligned Hackett offense functioned much better with Lewis & Tuel, because they didn't need to dumb down the playbook anymore. In the offseason, Marrone went ballistic when told that his future rested on EJ again, and the help would come from an expensive trade to get Watkins. Again, Marrone was proven right in retrospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just to see what Sammy and Robert are doing. Also, the Rams played here for 20 years and although I hate the owner, I sort of like the team. Sammy was not really noticeable. I watched him run a few routes. Caught 2 for 8 yards. Woods made a catch early. I didn't watch the second. However, the clear star of this receiving corps was Cooper Kupp from Eastern Washington. Kid was open and catching everything for the first half. Made the QB Jared Goff look really good. I think Goff was 16-20. I know it's preseason, but last year Goff couldn't hit 16 of 20 in practice with no defense on the field. Oh, and that kid from UB is still a stud. How did we miss on that one? Watkins is still learning the playbook and offense, no shock the rookie who has spent a lot of time with Goff getting acquainted and timing down were in sync. Watkins has been having great practice sessions already and turning in several wow moments and turning heads. If Goff can play like this guy this weekend, Watkins will have the big year I expected from him here. I still think Watkins can and will put up 85+ Rec, 1300+ yards, and 8+ TDs this year if he stays healthy and for you Fantasy Football people (like me) he is a steal in drafts where you can get him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Nothing ridiculous at all about the assessment. On the TD catch by Kupp alone, it looked to me as if the defensive backs were focused on Watkins to allow Kupp to be wide open for the score. So Sammy will continue to be a deco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 So Sammy will continue to be a deco. Just the mere mention of Watkins' name causes coverages to break down all over the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpoolkev Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Trading up to take Sammy Watkins when EJ Manuel was your QB was a horrid idea. Not only did he pass on Mack, but the WR he took wasn't even the best in the class. I'm sorry, but Doug Whaley was nothing short of an awful GM who set this team back several years. For crying out loud, look at the man's draft picks! Exactly Bang. Buddy you are looking at an awful GM right before your eyes ........ Whaley acquired talent ......Billy beane drives it away .....fact is Beane and friends are showing you in real time what bad GM play look like .......Anquan Boldin seen this and decided to retire than go through this crap.......you do know we wasted three picks to get our tackle and receiver right. In a DB rich draft we get a pair of LB lighter than Safetys... we are going back in time to the schoeble /kelsay era of players to draft........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC in St. Louis Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 I wish Tyrod was able to have more tertiary reads............ I think the offensive line has a fiduciary responsibility to see that Tyrod has more time for some tertiary reads. hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I wanted Evans in 2014.... he was my guy. I believe the Bills liked him a lot as well. The Buffalo trade up talk basically coincided with very strong rumours about two weeks before the draft that Evans would not make it past Tampa. Where the Bills were wrong, in hindsight, was seeing a drop off between Watkins / Evans and OBJ. Whilst I agree with this.... I think you'd struggle to find 32 players in the 2013 draft across all positions who would have all been guaranteed to go in at least the top 3 rounds of any of the subsequent drafts. The 2013 class was just a sucky class.... beyond just QB. You can make an argument for saying if you are going to take a chance and reach on a QB in the 1st do it in a year where you are not passing up special talents to do so. There is no doubt that there are years in which the crop for talent is thinner than normal. But over an extended period of time the talent is balanced out between good and bad and average yield years. When there are barren talent years a smart organization can work around that dry pipeline by making smart mid-level free agent acquisitions to keep the talent flowing. Hitting on lower round picks is not something an organization can count on. But doing it at a higher rate than average can also help contribute to a better roster. Looking back from the Donahoe to Levy to Nix to Whaley eras the scouting performances have been mediocre at best. Even with the recognition that finding a credible starting qb is a challenge how does an organization go through a quarter century without coming up with someone that is considered adequate? In a system designed for parity there is no excuse for this disgusting generational mediocrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 There is no doubt that there are years in which the crop for talent is thinner than normal. But over an extended period of time the talent is balanced out between good and bad and average yield years. When there are barren talent years a smart organization can work around that dry pipeline by making smart mid-level free agent acquisitions to keep the talent flowing. Hitting on lower round picks is not something an organization can count on. But doing it at a higher rate than average can also help contribute to a better roster. Looking back from the Donahoe to Levy to Nix to Whaley eras the scouting performances have been mediocre at best. Even with the recognition that finding a credible starting qb is a challenge how does an organization go through a quarter century without coming up with someone that is considered adequate? In a system designed for parity there is no excuse for this disgusting generational mediocrity. I am not arguing the Bills have been a good drafting team or have had the right draft strategy. I am just telling you that 2013 class was terrible. It might be the worst draft class in the "modern era" of the NFL. There might have been about 8 genuine first round grades in the 2013 draft. If you are going to reach massively on a gamble of a QB you might as well do it in a year when you are not passing up potential elite talent in other positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I am not arguing the Bills have been a good drafting team or have had the right draft strategy. I am just telling you that 2013 class was terrible. It might be the worst draft class in the "modern era" of the NFL. There might have been about 8 genuine first round grades in the 2013 draft. If you are going to reach massively on a gamble of a QB you might as well do it in a year when you are not passing up potential elite talent in other positions.Think about how much more damaging Gabbert or Locker were. Look at the players that went after them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Who was really worth taking at 16? Maybe Xavier Rhodes, but they were pretty solid at CB at that point. Yes. The Bills should have grabbed a corner. He was totally worth taking. Maybe they should have taken him a #8, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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