RoyBatty is alive Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 That is great video of him versus Cinci. 90% of his throws he had at least one foot off the ground. As many others have posted, his footwork is deplorable, a clinic in deplorable, he throws off balance constantly, no patience in the pocket. But at least in College he got away with it because of his incredibly strong arm. Has anyone ever seen worse footwork in the NFL, I haven't. It is going to be interesting to see if he can turn into a franchise QB, I am betting against it but I can see why KC took the chance they did.
GunnerBill Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 That is great video of him versus Cinci. 90% of his throws he had at least one foot off the ground. As many others have posted, his footwork is deplorable, a clinic in deplorable, he throws off balance constantly, no patience in the pocket. But at least in College he got away with it because of his incredibly strong arm. Has anyone ever seen worse footwork in the NFL, I haven't. It is going to be interesting to see if he can turn into a franchise QB, I am betting against it but I can see why KC took the chance they did. Not that succeeded, no. It is why despite liking a lot of Mahomes I graded him as a high 3rd round pick. My gut wanted to like him more than that.... but the footwork is truly horrible and I just couldn't unsee it. His back foot has a mind totally of its own. I think the kid has a chance but that chance involves not playing this year. It involves taking a year and trying to refine that technique. If he could just make his bad footwork consistent (so that even if it isn't technically right you know how it is going to be wrong) then I think he becomes potentially very good. At the moment the problem is the footwork isn't just one issue.... it is bad in different ways from play to play almost.
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 Not that succeeded, no. It is why despite liking a lot of Mahomes I graded him as a high 3rd round pick. My gut wanted to like him more than that.... but the footwork is truly horrible and I just couldn't unsee it. His back foot has a mind totally of its own. I think the kid has a chance but that chance involves not playing this year. It involves taking a year and trying to refine that technique. If he could just make his bad footwork consistent (so that even if it isn't technically right you know how it is going to be wrong) then I think he becomes potentially very good. At the moment the problem is the footwork isn't just one issue.... it is bad in different ways from play to play almost. He's in a good situation though where he won't be rushed onto the field. The only concern is that Reid runs a west coast offense, so timing and precision are largely more important than chucking it down the field. Bad footwork tends to sail throws causing turnovers and preventing YAC.
GunnerBill Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 He's in a good situation though where he won't be rushed onto the field. The only concern is that Reid runs a west coast offense, so timing and precision are largely more important than chucking it down the field. Bad footwork tends to sail throws causing turnovers and preventing YAC. Yea I think he ended up in a great situation for him. If Mahomes fails he fails because he didn't have it. I know some think that is always true.... I don't necessarily agree with that. I think coaching and structure early in a QBs NFL career matters.
RoyBatty is alive Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 Not that succeeded, no. It is why despite liking a lot of Mahomes I graded him as a high 3rd round pick. My gut wanted to like him more than that.... but the footwork is truly horrible and I just couldn't unsee it. His back foot has a mind totally of its own. I think the kid has a chance but that chance involves not playing this year. It involves taking a year and trying to refine that technique. If he could just make his bad footwork consistent (so that even if it isn't technically right you know how it is going to be wrong) then I think he becomes potentially very good. At the moment the problem is the footwork isn't just one issue.... it is bad in different ways from play to play almost. That is probably the way to solve it, to put it in a Golf analogy like Jim Furyk's golf swing which is wretched but it is the same consistent wretched so it works for him. There is so much work to be done with Mahomes I wouldn't even know where you would start. I remember when the Bills brought in an alleged QB guru Lee to fix some of Ryan Fitzpatrick's mechanics, which of course ended in failure, no improvement. Trying to redo Mahomes is going to be monumental task. If Alex Smith goes down early in the season we might have a real shot at the #1 pick in the draft, I think Mahomes playing this year would end in total disaster,
GunnerBill Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 That is probably the way to solve it, to put it in a Golf analogy like Jim Furyk's golf swing which is wretched but it is the same consistent wretched so it works for him. Good analogy. That is pretty much exactly the way I see Mahomes' best chance of success.
Alphadawg7 Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 Your accurate observations about Mahomes's less than pristine mechanics were well known about him when evaluating him as a pro prospect. That's why it was clearly acknowledged by every serious scout that it was going to take time to smoothen out his mechanics. What wasn't in doubt were his raw throwing skills. They were eye popping. There is a dynamism to his passing ability that you can't teach. You either have it or not. He going to KC was a good situation for him because they already have a starter and they have a good team. That was the strategy that KC had when he was selected. The worst thing that could have happened to a raw prospect such as him was to go to a team such as Houston where there would be more pressure to play him sooner rather than develop him. Watson with different traits is more suited than Mahomes to play sooner. Too many people (not saying you) are too quick to make a conclusive judgment on a qb based on their rookie performances. Many people jumped to the conclusion that Goff was going to be a failure based on his rookie year when the team's intention was to sit him out his first year as basically a red shirt year in order to more properly prepare him. As it turned out the team played him sooner than they intended because of their dire qb situation and their team status in the standings. It is not surprising that he struggled last year. But now with a year under his belt and good coaching (McVay coached Cousins in Washington) Goff should be measurably better this year and make a quantum leap next year. If it were up to me I would have drafted Mahomes (as Whaley wanted to do) and groomed him to be our franchise qb. Although he wouldn't have been ready his rookie year the organization didn't seize the opportunity to select a talented player. That dithering approach to the qb position is why the Bills haven't had a franchise qb for a quarter century. And It's also why it has been a failure for more than a generation. Yes, you are correct I was not a fan of taking him at 10 at all. QB's are a hard commodity to hit on as it is, and taking one who needs basic mechanics rebuilt for prolonged success in the NFL makes it too risky IMO. Like any prospect, his future will be dictated on the field, not in pre draft evaluations and fully aware he can develop into a franchise guy. But with a roster at the time that was close to competing, I preferred to gamble less and fill bigger needs. And going into the draft, QB was absolutely not our biggest need no matter what side of the TT fence anyone falls on. And yes I agree too that going to KC was a good place for him as he wont have to play right away. However, I think Buffalo would have been a terrible place for him to land, I really do. And I am not one of those negative people that thinks any prospect coming here will be ruined. But, there would have been a tremendous amount of pressure for him to play early, and honestly I think TT would have been traded to a team like Jax, SF, etc had we taken Mahomes and he would have been tee'd up to start. And in that scenario, I really think his odds of developing properly would have been lowered given he likely plays before he should really play if we take him. I have nothing against Mahomes, I just didn't want to draft him at 10. Would have been fine with him in the 2nd, but hated the idea of drafting a guy at 10 that was more of a project than likely NFL Ready in his first year. And I also 100% totally agree, people are too quick to make conclusive judgements on rookie or preseason performances. Like all the Watson stuff after preseason game 1 just to see him go 3-10 in game 2. Nobody is really going to know what any of these guys can be until they got a couple of seasons as a starter in them. Year 3 of their starting is really when you can make a solid assessment of what their career is and will be. All people have to do is look at a couple teams right now with major QB trouble who not that long ago people thought their QB play was locked down long term with young QB's...thats the 49ers and Jags. Niners opened up the vault for Kap thinking their future there was set, now Kap can't even get a job (which I think is BS by the way, he should be on a roster)...and the Jags thought Bortles was the future until his poor mechanics won out and he showed he is a terrible QB. Of all the rookie QB's the only who has really impressed me this Preseason is Trubisky. All the others like Kizer, Watson, and Mahomes have shown promise too, but Trubisky looks the most ready to me. I still think its in his best interest to sit behind Glennon still, Bears are going no where this year, so no reason to rush Trubisky in there. Let him sit most the year if they can and maybe get him some live games towards the end of the season to help prep him to start next year is what I would do.
GunnerBill Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) Yes, you are correct I was not a fan of taking him at 10 at all. QB's are a hard commodity to hit on as it is, and taking one who needs basic mechanics rebuilt for prolonged success in the NFL makes it too risky IMO. Like any prospect, his future will be dictated on the field, not in pre draft evaluations and fully aware he can develop into a franchise guy. But with a roster at the time that was close to competing, I preferred to gamble less and fill bigger needs. And going into the draft, QB was absolutely not our biggest need no matter what side of the TT fence anyone falls on. We obviously disagreed on the strength of the QB class in 2017 (thought not particularly on Mahomes it should be said) but the last two sentences are where my bigger disagreements are. I don't think this roster was close to competing. I saw it as a window closing. We had a window and we wasted 2 years of prime opportunity on Rex freaking Ryan. I was mortified the day we hired him because at that point I did think we were close..... like really, really close.... like find someone who isn't a tire fire to play Quarterback and we are going.... we found a person better than just "not a disaster" to play QB and we still didn't go - because of Rex freaking Ryan being a bad Head Coach (yes, I know he helped us find Tyrod). I think the team at the end of last season needed some major surgery at linebacker and safety, had nothing beyond Sammy Watkins (remember him?) at receiver and had slowly but surely lost quality depth because of cap issues. Equally, for me at least, if you don't have a franchise QB then it is always your biggest need. Even if it isn't your team's biggest weakness - which obviously it wasn't. I have never advocated a 2017 tank... but I do think it is a year to rebuild and that is why I'd have been fine taking a QB in the 1st round and taking some lumps this year. As it stands we just punted that process a year in my opinion and I am not quite sure for what benefit. If the 2018 class turns out as special as advertised then maybe I will see that benefit. Edited August 22, 2017 by GunnerBill
Alphadawg7 Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) We obviously disagreed on the strength of the QB class in 2017 (thought not particularly on Mahomes it should be said) but the last two sentences are where my bigger disagreements are. I don't think this roster was close to competing. I saw it as a window closing. We had a window and we wasted 2 years of prime opportunity on Rex freaking Ryan. I was mortified the day we hired him because at that point I did think we were close..... like really, really close.... like find someone who isn't a tire fire to play Quarterback and we are going.... we found a person better than just "not a disaster" to play QB and we still didn't go - because of Rex freaking Ryan being a bad Head Coach (yes, I know he helped us find Tyrod). I think the team at the end of last season needed some major surgery at linebacker and safety, had nothing beyond Sammy Watkins (remember him?) at receiver and had slowly but surely lost quality depth because of cap issues. Equally, for me at least, if you don't have a franchise QB then it is always your biggest need. Even if it isn't your team's biggest weakness - which obviously it wasn't. I have never advocated a 2017 tank... but I do think it is a year to rebuild and that is why I'd have been fine taking a QB in the 1st round and taking some lumps this year. As it stands we just punted that process a year in my opinion and I am not quite sure for what benefit. If the 2018 class turns out as special as advertised then maybe I will see that benefit. I will admit, I originally liked the Rex hire as I felt at least we got an experienced coach in here who should at the very least keep the Defense stout. My biggest concern was how the offense would be with him here...to my, and most peoples, shock the offense greatly improved and the defense significantly regressed to a level of pathetic. For me, going into this new draft the way I saw it was we had a new coach who was the guy at the top of my list who brought in an OC that was familiar with TT. In 2 years as a starter, TT numbers are actually more than solid for the most part. People talk about how many years he has been in the league all the time, yet completely dismiss the real factors around his career arc and that he has less than 2 seasons of starts under his belt. I look at a kid who led the Bills to be one of the most potent scoring offenses in the NFL, led the offense to 25+ points 10 times, and did all of that with one of the worst WR groups in the NFL due to injuries. People forget we started guys straight off the street at times last year and guys way down our depth chart. He also had to lead a team that had to practically score most drives to make up for all the points the defense gave up. He also had 3 OCs in his last 3 years and now is going on his 4th between Balt and 3 Bills years. So while I get TT has a lot to prove to be the long term guy, I felt we could win with him and would have easily made the playoffs had our defense not given up over 26 points per game in the 15 games that were not the Pats fluke shutout without Brady. People point at year end finish and conveniently over look that the Pats game was a FALSE positive. When you give up over 26 points per game in 94% of your games played, you generally don't make the playoffs. I look at teams with talented QBs like Rivers, Brees, Ryan, Luck, and Stafford and then you see in the last 3 years they have combined for just THREE playoff appearances out of a combined 15 chances...and Stafford owns 2 of them. Ryan is the only other one who made the playoffs in the last 3 years, and that was last year only. So having this Franchise QB doesn't insure anything, and yet Bills would have STILL been one of the highest scoring teams in the playoffs last year if not for the defense being so bad. Plus, I was a much bigger fan of this next years crop of QBs...so my stance was simple...let TT have a year to see what he (and at the time we had Watkins) and Watkins can do with the new regime, and lets grab more talent to either move this team closer and at the very least, have less holes to fill going into the next draft with a clear and final decision on TT where we can get a QB if need be. That way if we do get a QB, he is coming to a better roster which would hopefully expedite our ability to compete again. Edited August 22, 2017 by Alphadawg7
DallasMac Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 Yea I think he ended up in a great situation for him. If Mahomes fails he fails because he didn't have it. I know some think that is always true.... I don't necessarily agree with that. I think coaching and structure early in a QBs NFL career matters. Like a lot of things I think it depends on the person. Some people can adapt quickly and others take time. I think that Rodger's really benefitted from his time on the bench.
CommonCents Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 Which rookie QB has this not been said about? Descriptors like "picks things up quickly" and "poised" should be the baseline. You could say the same exact things about Peterman, except his throwing motion isn't horrendous and he didn't cost two 1st round picks. Every rookie QB has picked up an NFL offense and looks like they belong on the field in the preseason. That's all meaningless. When the real bullets fly if he hasn't fixed his mechanics he will be a major bust. The real bullets fly...Wowzers. As if you can't see how fluid he is in and outside of the pocket. Has shown some scramble ability, a cannon arm, and pocket awareness. Comparing him to Peterman who has a head and nothing else. Banana Split, honey ice tea.
Alphadawg7 Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 Like a lot of things I think it depends on the person. Some people can adapt quickly and others take time. I think that Rodger's really benefitted from his time on the bench. Rodgers looked so bad that the Packers used a 2nd round pick on Brohm the year Rodgers was going to be the likely starter because they didnt know if Rodgers would pan out. Everything I read about that whole ordeal said he struggled a lot in camp and practice his early years and the FO wasn't sold on him yet. So yeah, perfect example how waiting and developing paid dividends for the Packers and Rodgers.
JohnC Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 I will admit, I originally liked the Rex hire as I felt at least we got an experienced coach in here who should at the very least keep the Defense stout. My biggest concern was how the offense would be with him here...to my, and most peoples, shock the offense greatly improved and the defense significantly regressed to a level of pathetic. For me, going into this new draft the way I saw it was we had a new coach who was the guy at the top of my list who brought in an OC that was familiar with TT. In 2 years as a starter, TT numbers are actually more than solid for the most part. People talk about how many years he has been in the league all the time, yet completely dismiss the real factors around his career arc and that he has less than 2 seasons of starts under his belt. I look at a kid who led the Bills to be one of the most potent scoring offenses in the NFL, led the offense to 25+ points 10 times, and did all of that with one of the worst WR groups in the NFL due to injuries. People forget we started guys straight off the street at times last year and guys way down our depth chart. He also had to lead a team that had to practically score most drives to make up for all the points the defense gave up. He also had 3 OCs in his last 3 years and now is going on his 4th between Balt and 3 Bills years. So while I get TT has a lot to prove to be the long term guy, I felt we could win with him and would have easily made the playoffs had our defense not given up over 26 points per game in the 15 games that were not the Pats fluke shutout without Brady. People point at year end finish and conveniently over look that the Pats game was a FALSE positive. When you give up over 26 points per game in 94% of your games played, you generally don't make the playoffs. I look at teams with talented QBs like Rivers, Brees, Ryan, Luck, and Stafford and then you see in the last 3 years they have combined for just THREE playoff appearances out of a combined 15 chances...and Stafford owns 2 of them. Ryan is the only other one who made the playoffs in the last 3 years, and that was last year only. So having this Franchise QB doesn't insure anything, and yet Bills would have STILL been one of the highest scoring teams in the playoffs last year if not for the defense being so bad. Plus, I was a much bigger fan of this next years crop of QBs...so my stance was simple...let TT have a year to see what he (and at the time we had Watkins) and Watkins can do with the new regime, and lets grab more talent to either move this team closer and at the very least, have less holes to fill going into the next draft with a clear and final decision on TT where we can get a QB if need be. That way if we do get a QB, he is coming to a better roster which would hopefully expedite our ability to compete again. I appreciate your detailed and knowledgeable response but my interpretation of the situation is much different than yours. We both agree on the Rex reign so there is no point in belaboring the obvious. Where I diverge from you is that entering into this season compared to when Rex took over I didn't see this as a playoff team. When Rex took over I agree with you that the team he inherited was on the verge of breaking the streak. But my view on this year's team is different from yours in that I didn't see this team as a playoff contending team mostly due to the damage from the Rex tornado effect. (When you hire a fraud you get a fraud.) Where I strenuously disagree with you is how we see TT as a qb. His stats aren't as illuminating as much as what the eye test reveals. He can't make the reads and he can't make the anticipatory throws. The coordinators have a very limited play book in order to accommodate his lack of vision. In the short run a qb can accumulate good stats but as time goes by teams adjust to one's weaknesses and to strengths. There was a reason why Whaley wanted him out and the wrestling coach was only willing to keep him with a much diminished contract. That certainly doesn't reflect an organization's belief that he has much of an upside. I'm not a basher. TT is a good bridge qb and he was our best option when he joined the team and even now. I'm not as down on the organization as it may seem to many. I believe that McDermott's assessment of the roster is much more realistic/accurate than Whaley's inflated view of his roster. He believed that his team was on the verge of something meaningful so he took a more patchwork approach toward the roster. In my estimation this roster was thinner than he believed it was. I also favor the more conceptual approach that McDermott has in building a roster. Make no mistake this is a rebuilding endeavor. Those people who believed entering the season that this was a playoff team had expectations that didn't match what the team was doing. The team trading down in the draft to accumulate more picks and Watkins not being tendered were clear signals that this was not a quick fix project. And I agree with that stance.
Zerovoltz Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 1. I am a Chiefs fan. 2. It is pre season. Here is the thing about Mahomes that stands out in the games, in the practices, etc. if you watch the pass he makes on third down scrambling way back and around the side for a completion to convert and keep the Drive going...it's that play that only a handful of guys can make in the NFL. Mahomes makes THAT play because he can. It's the difference between settling for 3 or going on to score 7. Alex Smith can not, and does not make that throw. We've seen smith in that situation 100 times. That drive ends in a field goal attempt 100/100 times because that is a play Smith can't make. It is one Aaron Rodgers can. In a league where most games are decided by less than 7, this is exactly the kind of thing that makes the difference you can't find on a stat sheet. The box score calls that a completed pass for 5 yards on 3rd and 2. It doesn't say only a few guys in the league could have made the play and the drive ended in 7 instead of 3. Big numbers are put up by the Staffords and the Rivers types all the time. It's a passing league. You guys are going to regret missing out on him.
GG Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 Guys with cannon arms and excellent mobility look great in NFL preseason games ...
The Age of Aquarius Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 That is great video of him versus Cinci. 90% of his throws he had at least one foot off the ground. As many others have posted, his footwork is deplorable, a clinic in deplorable, he throws off balance constantly, no patience in the pocket. But at least in College he got away with it because of his incredibly strong arm. Has anyone ever seen worse footwork in the NFL, I haven't. It is going to be interesting to see if he can turn into a franchise QB, I am betting against it but I can see why KC took the chance they did. Thank you. I watched the video and was going to write a response, but then saw the thread had 9 pages! When I cam to this page, you were at the top with this response, which I completely agree with. Too many throws across his body on the run, absolutely no patience in the pocket for routes to develop--quite honestly he looks scared to take a hit. As soon as the pocket starts collapsing, his eyes leave downfield and he looks for a running lane. CJ Beathard. He WILL be the quarterback that we (and 31 other teams) forever rue the day we passed on him. Poise in the pocket, strong delivery, can take a hit, gets better as the game goes on. We would have had our franchise guy, but sadly, we let it slip by.
Bookie Man Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 I think he's gonna be a good one. Was my guy at 10
Roundybout Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 CJ Beathard. He WILL be the quarterback that we (and 31 other teams) forever rue the day we passed on him. Poise in the pocket, strong delivery, can take a hit, gets better as the game goes on. We would have had our franchise guy, but sadly, we let it slip by. Looks ok but wasn't his deep ball accuracy abysmal in college? Don't think he had it upstairs either.
outsidethebox Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 We'll see soon enough. Getting giddy over preseason QB performances? Help yourself. Does that go with every position or just Qb?
RoyBatty is alive Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 Thank you. I watched the video and was going to write a response, but then saw the thread had 9 pages! When I cam to this page, you were at the top with this response, which I completely agree with. Too many throws across his body on the run, absolutely no patience in the pocket for routes to develop--quite honestly he looks scared to take a hit. As soon as the pocket starts collapsing, his eyes leave downfield and he looks for a running lane. CJ Beathard. He WILL be the quarterback that we (and 31 other teams) forever rue the day we passed on him. Poise in the pocket, strong delivery, can take a hit, gets better as the game goes on. We would have had our franchise guy, but sadly, we let it slip by. Sadly for the Bills, I think you might be spot on with Beathard.
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