Runninrams Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 This is a serious question, I can't think of an example of an NFL franchise tanking where it worked? Suck for Luck worked
chris heff Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 3 straight playoffs and AFC championship game before he got hurtI guess, but didn't the Jets under Rex with Sanchez go to two straight AFC championship games? Do you really want to use that as a gage of success? And with Manning hurt did the Colts have much of a choice? The tank was kind of forced on them. I still can't come up with one example of a team planning and executing a tank and having it result in any kind of long term success.
SoTier Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Good grief...every thread has the same arguments. At some point, we have to move on guys. Three years down the road, we will have some answers and clarity as to whether the trade was good or bad. ... and 20 straight years without making the playoffs. Right-- when you send out talent this year for picks next year, trade back in the draft for a pick next year, and let more substantial FAs walk than you sign to free up space next year.... you are not building the 2017 team. You are building 2018 and hoping not to embarrass in 2017 No, you just don't give a crap about winning in 2017 ... or 2018 or any other season.
leonbus23 Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) Anyone tell Beane we're ANNOYED at him for trading away the most physically talented player on the team? Because, yeah, player of that caliber can just be replaced in the draft, right? I know. And even if we do get a player like Sammy in the draft, we will be confronted with the same question of whether to pay him at some point. Edited August 16, 2017 by leonbus23
Magox Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 I know. And even if we do get a player like Sammy in the draft, we will be confronted with the same question of whether to pay him at some point. Only if that person has had injury issues. Let's not lose sight of that important detail.
BillsFan4 Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Which is literally the worst thing they could have done. Either go for playoffs, or go for the cellar. Enough of this middle ground crap. IF they would have went for the cellar they could have a top 3 pick and all this additional draft capital, but instead it will be pick 12-15 and other draft capital that now has to be spent to move up in the draft. Right, because the Bills didn't beat a brady-less Pats 16-0. Wthout Brady the Pats are an average team, at best. Yeah, with their 3rd string QB playing hurt and missing other key players too (like Gronk for much of the game). Do you remember Brady at the beginning of his career? For years he was more of a check-down game manager type QB. He wasn't always the same Brady that we see today, who has had the chance to literally perfect playing in that system. Again, Brady is amazing and will go down as one of the best ever. But that Pats team is so much more than just Brady alone. Giving Brady all the credit neglects giving Belichick just as much credit for what he's done. The Patriots are a very good all around team almost every single year, on offense and defense.
zow2 Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 I guess, but didn't the Jets under Rex with Sanchez go to two straight AFC championship games? Do you really want to use that as a gage of success? And with Manning hurt did the Colts have much of a choice? The tank was kind of forced on them. I still can't come up with one example of a team planning and executing a tank and having it result in any kind of long term success. The Tank doesn't work in the NFL. Those that think it does are delusional. Losing just sets up a culture of losing that's hard to break. You're right, the Colts "lucked" out by Peyton being injured in the perfect scenario that wasn't planned. Once they built up a terrible record, they finished it off. When teams that pick in the top 10 hit on a QB, that's all you need.. (i.e. Eli, Big Ben, Ryan, Luck, Palmer, Cam, Winston, Peyton, Rivers, etc). Anyone can move up for the right price. You don't have to completely suck and rip the heart out of your fanbase in the hopes of drafting #1. When Teams hit on a QB later in the first round and beyond it's just gravy (Flacco, Dak, Wilson, Brees, Cousins, etc..). There are too many examples of high pick QB's that never turned out to be anything. I'm with Beane. Stay competitive now...while building for the future.
chris heff Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 The Tank doesn't work in the NFL. Those that think it does are delusional. Losing just sets up a culture of losing that's hard to break. You're right, the Colts "lucked" out by Peyton being injured in the perfect scenario that wasn't planned. Once they built up a terrible record, they finished it off. When teams that pick in the top 10 hit on a QB, that's all you need.. (i.e. Eli, Big Ben, Ryan, Luck, Palmer, Cam, Winston, Peyton, Rivers, etc). Anyone can move up for the right price. You don't have to completely suck and rip the heart out of your fanbase in the hopes of drafting #1. When Teams hit on a QB later in the first round and beyond it's just gravy (Flacco, Dak, Wilson, Brees, Cousins, etc..). There are too many examples of high pick QB's that never turned out to be anything. I'm with Beane. Stay competitive now...while building for the future. I agree with you, but there are a lot of people on his site wishing for a total tank. I don't understand why, I can't think of any instances of that strategy working in the NFL. So I asked the question. As for McBeane I'm still on the fence, these guys aren't Belichick.
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Would be helpful if you know the right history, as opposed to the false one that you cling to. Very few people heard of Mularkey & Whaley. The only reason anyone knew about Whaley was from the email flap. Donahoe reached into his Pittsburgh past to get Mularkey who wasn't on anyone's radar before, and Pittsburgh actually preferred Mularkey to leave so they could move Whisenhunt into the OC job. Ryan was the favorite for Atlanta, but all talks stopped when Blank was observing shiva for his mother (which Mehta conveniently ignored in his article). That's the real origin of the "Don't let him out of this room" quote. Bills knew that if they let Ryan walk, Blank would resume discussions once his mourning was over. So you don't think NFL executives didn't one of the best franchises in sports OC and player personnel executive before we hired them? Of course, they were known in the NFL before we hired them. http://m.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/Doug-Whaley-named-Bills-general-manager/49e2e920-3b2a-48ff-950a-2c5d0b4004fd
CountDorkula Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 The Tank doesn't work in the NFL. Those that think it does are delusional. Losing just sets up a culture of losing that's hard to break. You're right, the Colts "lucked" out by Peyton being injured in the perfect scenario that wasn't planned. Once they built up a terrible record, they finished it off. When teams that pick in the top 10 hit on a QB, that's all you need.. (i.e. Eli, Big Ben, Ryan, Luck, Palmer, Cam, Winston, Peyton, Rivers, etc). Anyone can move up for the right price. You don't have to completely suck and rip the heart out of your fanbase in the hopes of drafting #1. When Teams hit on a QB later in the first round and beyond it's just gravy (Flacco, Dak, Wilson, Brees, Cousins, etc..). There are too many examples of high pick QB's that never turned out to be anything. I'm with Beane. Stay competitive now...while building for the future. the most overrated thing in sports. There is no such thing as a losing culture. If the Bills get a franchise QB, did they "change the culture" or did they just luck into finding a guy that can win games. The Pittsburgh Penguins didn't change the culture, they drafted two of the best players in the entire game. The Colts didn't change the culture, they drafted Peyton manning. The list goes on and on, culture is such a coach talk BS thing used.
reddogblitz Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) Which is literally the worst thing they could have done. Either go for playoffs, or go for the cellar. Enough of this middle ground crap. IF they would have went for the cellar they could have a top 3 pick and all this additional draft capital, but instead it will be pick 12-15 and other draft capital that now has to be spent to move up in the draft. Do you know the Hawks went 7-9 2 years in a row before they made the playoffs? They didn't have to be the worst to be the best. Or to get their "franchise QB". The Saints didn't either. Nor did the Steelers or Patsies** for that matter. There's more than 1 way to skin a cat. An early pick is also not a golden ticket. Most of those guys suck too. Edited August 16, 2017 by reddogblitz
GG Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 So you don't think NFL executives didn't one of the best franchises in sports OC and player personnel executive before we hired them? Of course, they were known in the NFL before we hired them. http://m.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/Doug-Whaley-named-Bills-general-manager/49e2e920-3b2a-48ff-950a-2c5d0b4004fd I'm going under the assumption that the "known" reference is by ordinary NFL fans. If the standard is to be known by NFL executives, then both Beane's and McD's backgrounds are superior to Mularkey & Whaley
mrags Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 the most overrated thing in sports. There is no such thing as a losing culture. If the Bills get a franchise QB, did they "change the culture" or did they just luck into finding a guy that can win games. The Pittsburgh Penguins didn't change the culture, they drafted two of the best players in the entire game. The Colts didn't change the culture, they drafted Peyton manning. The list goes on and on, culture is such a coach talk BS thing used. considering that we haven't had a playoff caliber team in 17 years I think there is argument to this. But being bad and trying to be bad just to get the best pick in the draft are 2 different things. Creating a team to lose and keeping that losing mentality for a whole season is contagious. Just like all the fans here that assume the wheels are falling off just because we traded a WR they were all in love with. Many, if not the majority have already written the season off as a losing season. Many, if not most are already calling for a "Tank" to get a high draft pick next year.
reddogblitz Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) I guess, but didn't the Jets under Rex with Sanchez go to two straight AFC championship games? Do you really want to use that as a gage of success? And with Manning hurt did the Colts have much of a choice? The tank was kind of forced on them. I still can't come up with one example a team planning and executing a tank and having it result in any kind of long term success. Colts could have scoured the waiver wire for someone better than Curtis Painter for crying out loud. OR, they could have traded for someone like the Vikings did last year. Tanking was By no means thrust upon them IMHO. But it is the only one I can think of and now it's overall effectiveness is in doubt. Usually tanking is pitched as setting you up for 15 years, not as a short term patch. At the moment, Suck for Luck appears to be just that. We'll see. Edited August 16, 2017 by reddogblitz
Like A Mofo Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) @nfl.com Bills GM Brandon Beane 'annoyed' by tanking talk https://amp.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000829966/article/bills-gm-brandon-beane-annoyed-by-tanking-talk?networkId=4595&site=.news&zone=story&zoneUrl=url%3dstory&zoneKeys=s1%3dstory&env=&pageKeyValues=prtnr%3daround-the-league%3bteam%3dbuf%3bconf%3dafc%3bdvsn%3dace%3bplyr%3danquan_boldin%3bplyr%3djordan_matthews&p.ct=Around+the+NFL&p.adsm=false&p.tcm=%23fff&p.bgc1m=%230964bf&p.bgc2m=%23053a74&sr=amp Be annoyed all he wants. It is what needs to be done. Tank it! I hope the Jets sweep the Bills for the betterment of the Bills and for the Jets to avoid getting Darnold. Have to think big picture. Give me 1-15. Edited August 16, 2017 by Like A Mofo
oldmanfan Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Colts could have scoured the waiver wire for someone better than Curtis Painter for crying out loud. OR, they could have traded for someone like the Vikings did last year. Tanking was By no means thrust upon them IMHO. But it is the only one I can think of and now it's overall effectiveness is in doubt. Usually tanking is pitched as setting you up for 15 years, not as a short term patch. At the moment, Suck for Luck appears to be just that. We'll see. Since I live here in Indy let me educate you. When they found out about Manning their first move was to bring in Kerry Collins. So they had a veteran with Super Bowl experience. Collins didn't play well and decided to retire a few weeks into the season. At that point there simply wasn'yt much out there.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 @ProFootballTalk 20-minute @PFT_Live chat with Rams G.M. Les Snead starts with the nuts and bolts of the Sammy Watkins trade http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/08/16/rams-started-pursuit-of-watkins-when-bills-didnt-exercise-fifth-year-option/ I'll venture a guess that Jim Schwartz is happy to have Darby: @TheEaglesWire Eagles training camp practice notes: Defense, Ronald Darby shine http://theeagleswire.usatoday.com/2017/08/14/eagles-training-camp-practice-notes-defense-ronald-darby-shine/ @bills_fanly Howie Roseman goes inside the Jordan Matthews trade #Bills http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/08/14/howie-roseman-goes-inside-the-jordan-matthews-trade/
PolishDave Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 considering that we haven't had a playoff caliber team in 17 years I think there is argument to this. But being bad and trying to be bad just to get the best pick in the draft are 2 different things. Creating a team to lose and keeping that losing mentality for a whole season is contagious. Just like all the fans here that assume the wheels are falling off just because we traded a WR they were all in love with. Many, if not the majority have already written the season off as a losing season. Many, if not most are already calling for a "Tank" to get a high draft pick next year. You are correct. And if you want a team to play to win you have to keep their minds in the right place. You have to give them as many reasons to be optimistic as possible. Ditching one of their top 2 players on offense when there is no cause to do it this year is a great way to gut punch the entire team. Bills staff "Yea we want to win. But, if you are super talented and going to want to make big money in this league next year, we don't want you here this year." This translates onto the field by players more easily developing a "Who gives a crap" attitude. Who gives a crap about this year, who gives a crap about this team, who gives a crap about this organization. - Those types of thoughts. Say you're in a game and the other team gets up 2 scores on you. Instead of digging deep and looking for a way to come back on them, you might start thinking "Who gives a crap?" And once that mentality hits - well, it just becomes that much harder for you to come back in that game. Instead it is more likely that the failure gains momentum and turns into a blowout. Don't emotionally gut punch every player on your team and then expect them not to feel bad.
oldmanfan Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 You are correct. And if you want a team to play to win you have to keep their minds in the right place. You have to give them as many reasons to be optimistic as possible. Ditching one of their top 2 players on offense when there is no cause to do it this year is a great way to gut punch the entire team. Bills staff "Yea we want to win. But, if you are super talented and going to want to make big money in this league next year, we don't want you here this year." This translates onto the field by players more easily developing a "Who gives a crap" attitude. Who gives a crap about this year, who gives a crap about this team, who gives a crap about this organization. - Those types of thoughts. Say you're in a game and the other team gets up 2 scores on you. Instead of digging deep and looking for a way to come back on them, you might start thinking "Who gives a crap?" And once that mentality hits - well, it just becomes that much harder for you to come back in that game. Instead it is more likely that the failure gains momentum and turns into a blowout. Don't emotionally gut punch every player on your team and then expect them not to feel bad. Every player on the team is not emotionally guy punched. More hysteria around here.
row_33 Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 the most overrated thing in sports. There is no such thing as a losing culture. If the Bills get a franchise QB, did they "change the culture" or did they just luck into finding a guy that can win games. The Pittsburgh Penguins didn't change the culture, they drafted two of the best players in the entire game. The Colts didn't change the culture, they drafted Peyton manning. The list goes on and on, culture is such a coach talk BS thing used. Ladies and Gentlemen, a big hand for your Cleveland Browns!
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