GG Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Excellent post. What I'm about to say isn't really all that germane, but if they somehow get lucky and get to 5-3 by midseason, there is no getting around the fact that you need talent to maintain the momentum. And unlike in MLB, they won't be able to trade prospects (in the form of draft picks) for the talent that'll get them to the 10-win finish line. Also, the final 8 games - five of which are at home - add up to a pretty easy schedule, relatively speaking (Indy, NE, NO, TB, Oakland, KC, the Jets, and SD). Instead, they'll be trotting out Gaines and a truly subpar WR corps, and they're likely to perform as they always perform after a halfway decent start -- terribly.. But I guess there's always next year! Why even bother playing then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Excellent post. What I'm about to say isn't really all that germane, but if they somehow get lucky and get to 5-3 by midseason, there is no getting around the fact that you need talent to maintain the momentum. And unlike in MLB, they won't be able to trade prospects (in the form of draft picks) for the talent that'll get them to the 10-win finish line. Also, the final 8 games - five of which are at home - add up to a pretty easy schedule, relatively speaking (Indy, NE, NO, TB, Oakland, KC, the Jets, and SD). Instead, they'll be trotting out Gaines and a truly subpar WR corps, and they're likely to perform as they always perform after a halfway decent start -- terribly.. But I guess there's always next year! This makes absolutely no sense to me. If they get to 5-3 with the roster as set, with Gaines and the WRs, why assume they would then fall apart in the latter half of the season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Why even bother playing then? Not sure of your point. My point is that prior to the trades, the Bills talent level wasn't that bad, and with a little luck they had a chance to replace a team like Miami in the WC sweepstakes. Trading away top talent hurts their chances to do this. Is this even arguable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Son Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 I'm not bashing Bills fans......the inability to understand the value of talent is not at all exclusive to Bills fans....it's universal. And even if you/they loved this stupid Watkins trade.........that's not the fans fault. They have two choices.......take it and like it. The nature of fandom is that a certain segment will buy ANYTHING the organization tells them. And the more upset they are with past results.......very often the MORE they like seeing the established heads of high profile players like Jason Peters or Marshawn Lynch or Sammy roll.....regardless of the harm done. The impetus is ENTIRELY on the organization to be successful..........fans and media have virtually zero impact on that. That is certainly ONE type of fan. There seems to be two extremes. OMG this is a great trade! Or, this is the worst trade ever! Same thing with draft grades. Great/terrible picks and winners and losers before a down has been played. At this point no one knows if this is a good or bad trade. All they have is their opinion, and that is fine to present, but no one can claim certainty in being correct. The reasonable fan lets it play out, and doesn't pile previous regimes mistakes on the current staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) This makes absolutely no sense to me. If they get to 5-3 with the roster as set, with Gaines and the WRs, why assume they would then fall apart in the latter half of the season? To paraphrase Mike Lombardi, the truly talented teams bring it later in the season. The first part of the season is a testing ground. You can be like Minny last year and do it through smoke and mirrors for half a season, but the tendencies become rote and opponents figure it out. Teams win through talent. To wit: Green Bay and Pitt last season, or the Giants in 2007 and 2011. Or conversely, Buffalo in 2011 and 2007. "Now, the month of September is used to glean the strengths and weakness a team might possess. Yes, the games count toward the overall win-loss record, but what matters more is being able to accurately assess a team and then making the minor adjustments needed to win in late November and December. Think of September as the first 100 miles in the Indy 500, when the race teams make the minor adjustments to the car at the first pit stop. Hall of Fame coach Bill Walsh always wanted his assistants to play talented rookies in September knowing full well that the mistakes they made in September would help refine their habits by November and December, when mistake-free football is essential." https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/8/10/16122796/how-to-beat-patriots-bill-belichick Edited August 14, 2017 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Why even bother playing then? I'm not sure many of the fans here even care about the "playing" part. Being a Bills fan has become all about the draft - it's just a twisted version fantasy football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Note to self: This isn't fan bashing. Oh man great find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Son Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 That's all we can do as fans. Let it play out. Doesn't mean you can't form an opinion before it plays out. Based on their history of stupid and very similar trades in Lynch/Peters, I'd say they !@#$ed up. Again. Who's history though? Not McBean. This is a different front office and even ownership, they have nothing to do with Lynch/Peters. Bean and McD seem to be universally respected. This isn't Nix and Chan. I'm going to trust in them until given evidence to the contrary, and none of us have been given any evidence regardless of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Moulds on my A** Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Who's history though? Not McBean. This is a different front office and even ownership, they have nothing to do with Lynch/Peters. Bean and McD seem to be universally respected. This isn't Nix and Chan. I'm going to trust in them until given evidence to the contrary, and none of us have been given any evidence regardless of opinion. I still can't forget about Nix and the Tampa GM being crank yanked and recorded about that convo with Fitz. Can't help but think he might've renegotiated his contract and we could've avoided the entire Gym Mat fiasco. The EJ, Tuel, Thad year was just hard to watch. I can't see Beane being worse than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Murica Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 I still can't forget about Nix and the Tampa GM being crank yanked and recorded about that convo with Fitz. Can't help but think he might've renegotiated his contract and we could've avoided the entire Gym Mat fiasco. The EJ, Tuel, Thad year was just hard to watch. I can't see Beane being worse than that. I was happy to be rid of Fitz then I realized they're QBs in the NFL that are worse than Fitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 This is fine. This is what happens in every training camp about this time of year. Guys just get frustrated lining up against each other every day. Nothing to see here. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) Not sure of your point. My point is that prior to the trades, the Bills talent level wasn't that bad, and with a little luck they had a chance to replace a team like Miami in the WC sweepstakes. Trading away top talent hurts their chances to do this. Is this even arguable? Of course it's arguable, because that's why they play the game. Otherwise Bills should have been handed the Lombardi last June because they won the offseason. On paper, the Bills talent is worse today than it was last Friday. But I'm not going to make a prognostication that this team will fall apart if it jumps out a 5-3 start. I'm looking at a top 5 offense which didn't lose much production in the departed vets, and a defense that squandered 4 second half leads. If they hold on to two of those Ws, plus don't trot out the EJ experiment in the finale, it's a playoff team. Last year's squad went 1-4 to close out the season, with the missing talent you're referring to. Maybe there was more to it than the talent? Edited August 14, 2017 by GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Of course it's arguable, because that's why they play the game. Otherwise Bills should have been handed the Lombardi last June because they won the offseason. On paper, the Bills talent is worse today than it was last Friday. But I'm not going to make a prognostication that this team will fall apart if it jumps out a 5-3 start. I'm looking at a top 5 offense which didn't lose much production in the departed vets, and a defense that squandered 4 second half leads. If they hold on to two of those Ws, plus don't trot out the EJ experiment in the finale, it's a playoff team. Last year's squad went 1-4 to close out the season, with the missing talent you're referring to. Maybe there was more to it than the talent? Exactly. Talent wise the Bills lost. But they played close last year without SW (when he did play he wasn't healthy) and will play again this year without him. Is the offensive talent that much worse than what actually played last year? This year the D is back to the 4-3 which most people believe they are better suited for. Losing Darby isn't good, but he was pretty bad last year. If they are able to get better production out of KS (or another CB) than Darby last year, the D should actually be better overall. That's not asking for a lot in terms of CB production. We definitely lost good players and talent, but unless they make more moves, I fail to see how this is a tank job compared with the team we put on the field last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 I have a feeling we are going back to the days of Great Guys with little to no talent days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 You need playmakers in this league. Outside of McCoy and Tyrod(who a lot of people love to bash) the Bills have 0 playmakers. Let me repeat - The Bills went 1-4 down the stretch last year WITH the playmakers everyone is crying about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Let me repeat - The Bills went 1-4 down the stretch last year WITH the playmakers everyone is crying about. TT didn't play the last game. The person who likes to throw to tents started that last game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) Of course it's arguable, because that's why they play the game. Otherwise Bills should have been handed the Lombardi last June because they won the offseason. On paper, the Bills talent is worse today than it was last Friday. But I'm not going to make a prognostication that this team will fall apart if it jumps out a 5-3 start. I'm looking at a top 5 offense which didn't lose much production in the departed vets, and a defense that squandered 4 second half leads. If they hold on to two of those Ws, plus don't trot out the EJ experiment in the finale, it's a playoff team. Last year's squad went 1-4 to close out the season, with the missing talent you're referring to. Maybe there was more to it than the talent? I don't understand your first sentence (seriously). I'm not talking about stupid Ryan quotes (your second sentence) or stupid Ryan coaching (your final sentence). My guess is that the current Bills staff is possibly good and as a baseline *competent* based on past results. Excellent talent helps teams win more than JAG talent does, assuming the coaching is NFL-competent. Having a bad coach is admittedly a spanner in the works vis-a-vis my argument, but I don't think that's the case anymore. It was the case last season, admittedly. Relatedly, Watkins was playing hurt even when he was in there. He wasn't nearly 100 percent, even in the Miami game. Let me repeat - The Bills went 1-4 down the stretch last year WITH the playmakers everyone is crying about. See my point about the coaching above. Plus: the final game shouldn't count, and last I recall, the Bills won that Miami game but were royally screwed by the refs in particularly egregious fashion - 2 blatant no-calls in in the end zone for PI (8 points surrendered) and not granting a TO to Ryan on that kick. Edited August 14, 2017 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 I don't understand your first sentence (seriously). I'm not talking about stupid Ryan quotes (your second sentence) or stupid Ryan coaching (your final sentence). My guess is that the current Bills staff is possibly good and as a baseline *competent* based on past results. Excellent talent helps teams win, assuming the coaching is competent. Having a bad coach is admittedly a spanner in the works vis-a-vis my argument, but I don't think that's the case anymore. It was the case last season, admittedly. It's not arguable that Bills got worse on paper. It's certainly arguable whether the talent they lost would have contributed to more wins. To me it's a stretch to surmise that if the Bills jump out to 5-3, they would wilt without Sammy & Darby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 I was happy to be rid of Fitz then I realized they're QBs in the NFL that are worse than Fitz. This is the realization I was hoping people would make about TT this off season. There are certainly worse qbs than him. Let me repeat - The Bills went 1-4 down the stretch last year WITH the playmakers everyone is crying about. So how good will they do without those play makers? This trade upset me because you don't get rid of talented players for what ifs. Especially YOUNG talent. If you are going to move on from guys it should be the ones closer to the end than the beginning. Sammy is only 2 years older than Zay Jones for comparison. Sammy has proven he can play in this league. I did finally put my finger on it though. I'm always excited for Bills football good or bad. This year I was pumped to watch the first preseason game. I got about 12 hours of excitement before the Bills decided I have to wait another 12 months for competitive football. I watched 4 straight passes from TT to Sammy and thought "that combo can do something this year" then they broke it up. Teams just don't give up YOUNG players of Sammy's caliber unless forced and certainly not for a 2nd round pick. I'm a koolaid drinker but since this trade I feel a lot more like ScottLaw than I do John from Hemet. I'm left with a lot of why bother. I feel like someone kicked my dog. The Bills do this to me pretty much every year but at least they let me make it until November before they do that. Sorry to go so far off topic I still can't formulate my thoughts other than it f*cking sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 You mean like the one he got from patting his own teammate on his helmet? Hey the NFL isn't messing around with this concussion stuff anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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