Bleeding Bills Blue Posted August 15, 2017 Posted August 15, 2017 And Chandler Jones, among others Logan Mankins...
Boatdrinks Posted August 15, 2017 Posted August 15, 2017 no, sorry. they handled it wrong. look at what Belichick did with Hightower this offseason. He was saying the same things about getting paid, etc. Bill kept him to the end of the contract and said "ok, go test the market. see what's out there". End result, Hightower found the money he thought was out there for him wasnt and he re-signed in New England Very true. A big part of being a GM is seeing through all the noise coming from the players side. Just negotiating tactics to get the best possible deal. People act like tweets from players mean they are going to get what they want. The market will dictate what they end up with, simple as that. I've yet to see a guy tweeting about what a sweetheart deal he's going to give his drafting team because he's not looking for the most money he can get. I think he was in line for a big year here. He is one of the best players on the field when's he's out there. He would've had a big year in which case the Bills should've paid him. I couldn't agree more. It's what the FO should have done. And the class of 2014 includes Beckham and Evans. It's possible in the era of the increasing cap that the market for WRs gets a bump. He might be right, but it won't be a huge leap. It doesn't change the fact that second deals in the NFL are based on production and there is no way that Sammy ends up getting more than OBJ will. A few comments don't change the market, production and stats do.
Bill_with_it Posted August 15, 2017 Posted August 15, 2017 I think he was in line for a big year here. He is one of the best players on the field when's he's out there. He would've had a big year in which case the Bills should've paid him. There is literally no way that I believe Sammy Watkins outperformed AB or JJ. As such he shouldnt receive market changing salary for less than what those two put up. Its ridiculous to pay for potential.
MRW Posted August 15, 2017 Posted August 15, 2017 Wow. I'd love to know what the other two offers were. Good question. Makes it pretty clear, though, that Watkins' market value right now is a second-round pick.
Beast Posted August 15, 2017 Posted August 15, 2017 no, sorry. they handled it wrong. look at what Belichick did with Hightower this offseason. He was saying the same things about getting paid, etc. Bill kept him to the end of the contract and said "ok, go test the market. see what's out there". End result, Hightower found the money he thought was out there for him wasnt and he re-signed in New England A franchise can do that when they have the history the Patriots do. The Bills don't have that so need to do things different until they have a bit more credibility league-wide.
Boatdrinks Posted August 15, 2017 Posted August 15, 2017 Good question. Makes it pretty clear, though, that Watkins' market value right now is a second-round pick. That's not really up for debate as that's what he was dealt for. Then again, we can't be certain that BB dealt him to the highest bidder. Remember the Lynch deal? Let's say the picks were close or even the same. He may have sent him to the team with the lesser QB. Less of a chance for it to reflect poorly on him if Watkins has a good year. Since Watkins value to the Bills if healthy was more than his current market of a 2nd round pick, it's obvious winning games wasn't the top priority for Beane in this deal.
mannc Posted August 15, 2017 Posted August 15, 2017 Good question. Makes it pretty clear, though, that Watkins' market value right now is a second-round pick. Unless the other offers were rejected because they were from AFC or AFCE teams...
Boatdrinks Posted August 15, 2017 Posted August 15, 2017 A franchise can do that when they have the history the Patriots do. The Bills don't have that so need to do things different until they have a bit more credibility league-wide. True. And that should mean keeping as many talented players as you can and focus on getting a good QB. The Pats have TB and don't need to worry about that in every case. They can also get FAs for less because of this. They are a terrible comparison for anything the Bills do in this regard. Unless the other offers were rejected because they were from AFC or AFCE teams... This is possible/ likely as well.
reddogblitz Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) Nope, just load up the roster with a bunch of lunch-pail, run-through-a-wall soldiers and saints and COACH 'EM UP! Don't forget the high motor guys. He has fired one coach and one GM. Yes, but he's had 4 coaches in 4 years. Edited August 16, 2017 by reddogblitz
BullBuchanan Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 King accidentally makes a point that is going completely unnoticed. From 2013 on (whaley's involvement) every player drafted in the 5th round or higher is still in the league, they just don't play for the Bills. Some folks in Buffalo like to paint this picture that Whaley was some sort of disaster, but he doesn't have any Aaron Maybin, James Hardy. John McCargo. Mike Williams, Erik Flowers, Avion Black, Shawn Bryson on his resume. Not one.Truth be told, he's the only GM we've had in a t least 30 years that didn't draft a complete scrub rounds 1-5. All of them can play with the best players in the world. Maybe he should have drafted another QB and he'd still have a job.
thebandit27 Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 King accidentally makes a point that is going completely unnoticed. From 2013 on (whaley's involvement) every player drafted in the 5th round or higher is still in the league, they just don't play for the Bills. Some folks in Buffalo like to paint this picture that Whaley was some sort of disaster, but he doesn't have any Aaron Maybin, James Hardy. John McCargo. Mike Williams, Erik Flowers, Avion Black, Shawn Bryson on his resume. Not one. Truth be told, he's the only GM we've had in a t least 30 years that didn't draft a complete scrub rounds 1-5. All of them can play with the best players in the world. Maybe he should have drafted another QB and he'd still have a job. I agree that that's worthy of a mention...good stuff
26CornerBlitz Posted August 16, 2017 Author Posted August 16, 2017 A retort from Darby: @realronalddarby Can't believe everything you read. I'm grateful for everything. Words will get twisted . Learning fast .
vincec Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) King accidentally makes a point that is going completely unnoticed. From 2013 on (whaley's involvement) every player drafted in the 5th round or higher is still in the league, they just don't play for the Bills. Some folks in Buffalo like to paint this picture that Whaley was some sort of disaster, but he doesn't have any Aaron Maybin, James Hardy. John McCargo. Mike Williams, Erik Flowers, Avion Black, Shawn Bryson on his resume. Not one. Truth be told, he's the only GM we've had in a t least 30 years that didn't draft a complete scrub rounds 1-5. All of them can play with the best players in the world. Maybe he should have drafted another QB and he'd still have a job. I agree. The real issue is that the coaches and schemes changed continuously so he was never really able to build up the talent for one particular system. I think he's a top scout. Whether he was a top GM depends on what you expect from your GM I guess, as he certainly struggled to get along with the coaches and really didn't provide any leadership on team direction. Edited August 16, 2017 by vincec
apuszczalowski Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Where the problem lies is in the definition of the GMs role with a team Is the GMs role to go out and get the players that the HC needs/wants to fit his system for the team OR of his role to get the best possible players and have a coach who can work and adapt to the players they have? I think the GM role has been changing over the last few years where the coaches are being given more control on players and the GM role is becoming more of the gopher to get them what they want where as before I think the GM used to pick the direction of the team and pick the players with the coaches role to coach the guys they had and make it work. I don't think Whaley was a complete flop, bit I also don't think he was anything special. Seemed to me that he didn't mesh with the coaches and there was always a battle over who was in charge.
BullBuchanan Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 I agree. The real issue is that the coaches and schemes changed continuously so he was never really able to build up the talent for one particular system. I think he's a top scout. Whether he was a top GM depends on what you expect from your GM I guess, as he certainly struggled to get along with the coaches and really didn't provide any leadership on team direction. Might have something to do with him being publicly undermined by his bosses. Once it was known that Whaley didn't have any power over Marrone/Rex then I wouldn't respect him either. Frankly, I'm ready to have the discussion about whether or not the Pegulas are terrible owners. The Sabres have gone through almost the exact same thing. The fact that they fired Murray before the rebuild came to term speaks volumes to me. I think they're too used to having complete control, even when they don't know the subject matter. If they have a problem with how the team is being run, they should be directing the GM what they expect of them and telling the coaches and players that the GM is king. Otherwise, it destroys all of that person's credibility. The fact that "Coach & GM are finally on the same page" - well they damn well better be. They were promoted off of the same team and given the opportunity of a lifetime. I'd expect they've had plenty of time to talk about how they ensure they don't end up like the rest,
Scott7975 Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Don't forget the high motor guys. Yes, but he's had 4 coaches in 4 years. Yes he had 4 coaches in 4 years. One coach left with a crappy contract clause made before he bought the team. He hired one bad coach quickly rectified Third coach was just an interim coach for one whole game Hired 4th coach that everyone hopes will work out So in reality Pegula has had 2 coaching decisions in 4 years. First one was a bad one. At lease he realized it by year two. Lets hope second one works out. People cant have their cake and eat it too. People can criticize that Pegula has gone through one coach (trying to make it sound like 4 when really it wasn't) then complain when coach gets fired.... same people would also complain if he kept Rex. Cant complain about both.
Fadingpain Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 King accidentally makes a point that is going completely unnoticed. From 2013 on (whaley's involvement) every player drafted in the 5th round or higher is still in the league, they just don't play for the Bills. Some folks in Buffalo like to paint this picture that Whaley was some sort of disaster, but he doesn't have any Aaron Maybin, James Hardy. John McCargo. Mike Williams, Erik Flowers, Avion Black, Shawn Bryson on his resume. Not one. Truth be told, he's the only GM we've had in a t least 30 years that didn't draft a complete scrub rounds 1-5. All of them can play with the best players in the world. Maybe he should have drafted another QB and he'd still have a job. Whaley is a scout who can evaluate talent, but he was in way over his head as a GM. The fact that we have so few top picks still on the team is, in part, testimony to Whaley's failures as a GM. Ditto his clueless treatment of the QB position and his trade up for Watkins. Whaley will not work in the league as a GM again.
BullBuchanan Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 Whaley is a scout who can evaluate talent, but he was in way over his head as a GM. The fact that we have so few top picks still on the team is, in part, testimony to Whaley's failures as a GM. Ditto his clueless treatment of the QB position and his trade up for Watkins. Whaley will not work in the league as a GM again. I don't really understand how you're getting there. I'd bet Whaley has a job next year maybe GM or maybe director, but his track record is pretty damn solid if all you do is look at the facts. When you toss in the Pegulas mismanagement of both of their franchises, I really think someone will look at it and say his did the best that could have been expected.
y2zipper Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 In fairness to Whaley, the Ryans were basically forced on him by the Pegulas, who are relatively inexperienced owners. However, Whaley ultimately lost his job because he stuck to E.J. Manuel too long. Completely defensible draft pick, but it didn't take anybody very long (besides Whaley) to figure out that he couldn't play. If he jettisons Manuel after one year instead of moving up for Watkins, he probably ends up in charge after the ownership change. I think under Marrone was the last time the Bills were well-coached and what McDermott and Beane are doing is similar to that, but they have a much better chance because Tyrod is a mid-level starter at QB as opposed to Manuel, who can't play. They want control and discipline and are going to remove players that don't buy or don't want to do it from the equation. This is what good coaches and good general managers do in football. Darby and Watkins don't have any tangible impact on the team's record if it's well-coached. (This is true for anybody that isn't a quarterback.) We'll see if it works.
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