Overdue Bill Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 I agree but it's not just Sammy's foot. He's also had hip surgery, broken ribs, sprained ankle and pulled calf muscle. He didn't miss time with the hip surgery or broken ribs but if you want to sign this guy to a long term deal, like 4-5 more years...how confident are you in getting your value and that the injury pattern just stops? I would have loved to keep Watkins, have him here for years and I hate that he's gone....but I also can see the reasoning from the FO. We really have to remember that this is a business...the problems that we have had in the past have come from drafting and keeping players from an emotional standpoint as opposed to their usefulness to the organization. Rex Ryan's love for his son's Alma Mater was great but he didn't to draft players from Clemson who didn't fit his scheme. I think the team did the right thing in trading Sammy.
What a Tuel Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 I agree but it's not just Sammy's foot. He's also had hip surgery, broken ribs, sprained ankle and pulled calf muscle. He didn't miss time with the hip surgery or broken ribs but if you want to sign this guy to a long term deal, like 4-5 more years...how confident are you in getting your value and that the injury pattern just stops? I would have loved to keep Watkins, have him here for years and I hate that he's gone....but I also can see the reasoning from the FO. There is no such thing as injury prone. Players get injured. It is just a matter of whether or not they can play with said injury. Matthews "news" history is littered with injury designations and DNPs last year. At what point is he considered "injury prone" like Sammy? And if playing is what matters most well then based on Watkins history, Watkins is more likely to play 13+ than less.
Royale with Cheese Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 So what! He played in all but three games in the 1st two seasons with more than 2000 yards and 15 TDs. Well he didn't finish 2 more games in 2015. He didn't finish the Dolphins game. Pulled his calf muscle in the first quarter. Didn't play in the next two games against NYG and Tennessee. Got injured on the last play before half against Cincy with a sprained ankle. Missed the rest of that game. Sat out the following game against Jax. So basically between 2015 and 2016, Missed 11 games and couldn't complete 2 more. That's 13 out of a possible 32 games he couldn't complete or didn't play at all. I can understand why the the FO didn't want to give a long, high dollar extension. There is no such thing as injury prone. Players get injured. It is just a matter of whether or not they can play with said injury. Matthews "news" history is littered with injury designations and DNPs last year. At what point is he considered "injury prone" like Sammy? And if playing is what matters most well then based on Watkins history, Watkins is more likely to play 13+ than less. The last two seasons, Sammy has missed or not completed 13 of 32 possible games. When it's multiple injuries as the reason why a player has missed game time...that to me is injury prone.
What a Tuel Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 Well he didn't finish 2 more games in 2015. He didn't finish the Dolphins game. Pulled his calf muscle in the first quarter. Didn't play in the next two games against NYG and Tennessee. Got injured on the last play before half against Cincy with a sprained ankle. Missed the rest of that game. Sat out the following game against Jax. So basically between 2015 and 2016, Missed 11 games and couldn't complete 2 more. That's 13 out of a possible 32 games he couldn't complete or didn't play at all. I can understand why the the FO didn't want to give a long, high dollar extension. Ok, but as this injury with Matthews has shown, any player at any time can get injured. You take Watkins foot out of the equation and he's missed 5 games in 3 years according to you.
Royale with Cheese Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) Nobody the Bills have coming off the books are in Sammys class. That number also doesn't take into account the increase in the cap. They could've easily kept Sammy here and had plenty of cap to use. They didn't value him for whatever reason. Why? We saw it Thursday night when they threw the ball to him. He could easily put up big numbers in any offense. You know the cap will increase with every team. The Bills were bottom 1/3 in the league as far as salary cap. That's not a "boat load" unless you say the 2/3 ahead of them is "gigantic boat load". Ok, but as this injury with Matthews has shown, any player at any time can get injured. You take Watkins foot out of the equation and he's missed 5 games in 3 years according to you. Yes players can get injured any time but Matthews hasn't sustained injuries as often as Watkins or has missed as much time. We can't take Watkins foot out of the equation, it happened. Along with the ankle and calf he's missed time for. It doesn't mean that his year or the rest of his career he will be injured but I can understand not wanting to make that much of a high dollar commitment to a guy that hasn't been reliable the last 2 years. Edited August 14, 2017 by Teeflebees
What a Tuel Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) The last two seasons, Sammy has missed or not completed 13 of 32 possible games. When it's multiple injuries as the reason why a player has missed game time...that to me is injury prone. But you are including the foot injury that history has shown is very correctable. I think it is fair to ask since it makes up the bulk of his missed time, do you think it will be a problem again? What facts/knowledge are you using to back that up? The argument I hear from people in person is "injury prone", but that sounds to me like a fan designation because they assign a number of completely independent injuries to one player and believe for some reason that qualifies as more prone to injury. It is superstitious silliness. Sammy hurt his ribs in Year 1 because a player collided with him. Not because he was more prone to hurting his ribs than other players. Same with the other injuries. Edited August 14, 2017 by What a Tuel
26CornerBlitz Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) Well he didn't finish 2 more games in 2015. He didn't finish the Dolphins game. Pulled his calf muscle in the first quarter. Didn't play in the next two games against NYG and Tennessee. Got injured on the last play before half against Cincy with a sprained ankle. Missed the rest of that game. Sat out the following game against Jax. So basically between 2015 and 2016, Missed 11 games and couldn't complete 2 more. That's 13 out of a possible 32 games he couldn't complete or didn't play at all. I can understand why the the FO didn't want to give a long, high dollar extension. The last two seasons, Sammy has missed or not completed 13 of 32 possible games. When it's multiple injuries as the reason why a player has missed game time...that to me is injury prone. The decision didn't need to be made until after this season when they could have tagged him to see another year or traded him. Even with all of that he was very productive in his 1st two seasons. I again point to Julio Jones and Dez Bryant who have both dealt with injury issues but remain with their original teams. Edited August 14, 2017 by 26CornerBlitz
4merper4mer Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 So what! He played in all but three games in the 1st two seasons with more than 2000 yards and 15 TDs.Football players sustain injuries and very often play through them just as Sammy did. The "we couldn't afford Sammy" crap if such a load. They could have excercised his option and saved a few million while increasing his trade value if they didn't like his franchise tag hit another year out. It is clear they either had something personal/emotional against Sammy or they are just dumb. Most of the other stuff that have done seems smart so I'll guess it was the former. It makes no sense at all. FWIW unless the Rams extend him long term I'm not sure what sense it made for them either. I'm surprised they didn't make that a contingency.
What a Tuel Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) The "we couldn't afford Sammy" crap if such a load. They could have excercised his option and saved a few million while increasing his trade value if they didn't like his franchise tag hit another year out. It is clear they either had something personal/emotional against Sammy or they are just dumb. Most of the other stuff that have done seems smart so I'll guess it was the former. It makes no sense at all. FWIW unless the Rams extend him long term I'm not sure what sense it made for them either. I'm surprised they didn't make that a contingency. That is also a large problem with it that I see. How do you not shop Watkins around to a team he wants to go to and is willing to sign a long term contract? It makes it a little harder that he doesn't have this year under his belt to prove himself, but if you picked up the 5th year option, and let him play this year, you could shop him around to a team that is willing to deal, and he is willing to sign a contract with as a condition. Maybe it would be tough to pull off, but that is the type of move that I would like to see out of our GM. Not "No, I wasn't shopping him around at all, the Rams came to me with an offer, so I dealt". Worse case scenario, you lose out on a 2nd round pick. Best case scenario, you make a much better case for trading him, and maybe get a 1st out of it. Edited August 14, 2017 by What a Tuel
Royale with Cheese Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 The decision didn't need to be made until after this season when they could have tagged him to see another year or traded him. Even with all of that he was very productive in his 1st two seasons. I again point to Julio Jones and Dez Bryant who have both dealt with injury issues but remain with their original teams. Do you think that Julio Jones and Dez Bryant would have signed lucrative long term extensions if their previous 2 seasons were very injured and he wasn't a big part of the offense? Jones had an excellent 2012, injured 2013, excellent 2014. Signed extension the next season. Targeted 163 times in 2014 with 104 catches. Dez Bryant signed his extension before 2015 season. His seasons before that, 12, 15, 16 and 16 games played. His injuries didn't happen until after the contract and hasn't had the production since signing that contract. His numbers blew Sammy's out of the water. Sammy has missed 13 or not completed games out of 32. That's close to 40%? 6 targets a game in 2015 and 6.5 targets a game in 2016. He just hasn't been a major part of this offense....which is why he complained and deservedly so.
Mat68 Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 The decision didn't need to be made until after this season when they could have tagged him to see another year or traded him. Even with all of that he was very productive in his 1st two seasons. I again point to Julio Jones and Dez Bryant who have both dealt with injury issues but remain with their original teams. I dont think Watkins is on either of those guys levels. Buffalo didnt want to commit alot of money and the next 5 years to Watkins. If Watkins was more consistent and did have the injuries he isnt traded and buffalo picks up his option.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 Do you think that Julio Jones and Dez Bryant would have signed lucrative long term extensions if their previous 2 seasons were very injured and he wasn't a big part of the offense? Jones had an excellent 2012, injured 2013, excellent 2014. Signed extension the next season. Targeted 163 times in 2014 with 104 catches. Dez Bryant signed his extension before 2015 season. His seasons before that, 12, 15, 16 and 16 games played. His injuries didn't happen until after the contract and hasn't had the production since signing that contract. His numbers blew Sammy's out of the water. Sammy has missed 13 or not completed games out of 32. That's close to 40%? 6 targets a game in 2015 and 6.5 targets a game in 2016. He just hasn't been a major part of this offense....which is why he complained and deservedly so. 2000+ yards with 15 TDs between the '14 and '15 seasons isn't anything to ignore. 2016 is essentially a throwaway year with him only playing in eight games and being hampered in those.
Royale with Cheese Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 But you are including the foot injury that history has shown is very correctable. I think it is fair to ask since it makes up the bulk of his missed time, do you think it will be a problem again? What facts/knowledge are you using to back that up? The argument I hear from people in person is "injury prone", but that sounds to me like a fan designation because they assign a number of completely independent injuries to one player and believe for some reason that qualifies as more prone to injury. It is superstitious silliness. Sammy hurt his ribs in Year 1 because a player collided with him. Not because he was more prone to hurting his ribs than other players. Same with the other injuries. Here's a medical study on injury prone. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/02/the-genetics-of-being-injury-prone/385257/
What a Tuel Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) I'll point out that Julio Jones missed 14 out of 48 which is comparable to Watkins 13 out of 48. I'll also point out that Sammy Watkins never got the 4th year with the Bills that Julio got with the Falcons. Maybe he wouldnt have had a 1600 year season, but he could've done pretty well for himself. Now we will never know. Edited August 14, 2017 by What a Tuel
akm0404 Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 And now we're getting people saying that we should be planning on using the franchise tag on this guy. Ya'll realize that the franchise tag is going to cost something in the neighborhood of 16 or 17 million dollars next year, right? Paying a guy who has never had a year in the top 10 of any meaningful statistical category on a run-first offense $17m. Yeah, that's how a savvy front office really should operate. Fire these guys ASAP.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) I dont think Watkins is on either of those guys levels. Buffalo didnt want to commit alot of money and the next 5 years to Watkins. If Watkins was more consistent and did have the injuries he isnt traded and buffalo picks up his option. Think what you will, but his numbers compare favorably with Jones after their 1st three seasons and that's with worse QBing in a run oriented offense. Edited August 14, 2017 by 26CornerBlitz
akm0404 Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 And here we go again comparing Sammy Watkins to Julio Jones. The bias and delusion here is oh so strong.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 And here we go again comparing Sammy Watkins to Julio Jones. The bias and delusion here is oh so strong. Crazy huh?
CSBill Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 Borrowing from Gordon Gekko: If the Bills owned a funeral palor, no one would die.
thebandit27 Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 And now we're getting people saying that we should be planning on using the franchise tag on this guy. Ya'll realize that the franchise tag is going to cost something in the neighborhood of 16 or 17 million dollars next year, right? Paying a guy who has never had a year in the top 10 of any meaningful statistical category on a run-first offense $17m. Yeah, that's how a savvy front office really should operate. Fire these guys ASAP. Except, of course, for 2015, in which he lead the entire NFL in yards per target.
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