SectionC3 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 At first I was unhappy. But, upon further review, I've come around to really like what happened today. Maybe Gaines is a better scheme fit than Darby, and it was best to get something of significant value for Sammy before what now seems like his inevitable departure. There are other variables, too. We don't know what the offensive scheme is going to look like this year. It may be that we want to stretch the field horizontally more than vertically, and that we didn't need someone of Sammy's talents for that. Besides, looking at Taylor's splits, he's most effective out of 2WR and 2TE sets. So maybe we were going to see "bigger" formations this year anyway with the idea of throwing off of play action and out of either 7- or 3-step drops. Not sure the speed element of Sammy's game is essential to that formula. We also don't know how Sammy and Darby were perceived in the locker room, so perhaps there is some addition by subtraction. And, given the positional inflow/outflow, this is not a tank move. If, on the other hand, we move McCoy, Incognito, and/or Hughes, I might feel differently. Finally, given how this regime (rightfully) values draft picks, I wouldn't be so comfortable if I was Holmes/Davis/Ducasse. Maybe we even see those guys get cut before they can get hurt to secure that extra third round pick. If accumulation of assets toward a trade for the opportunity to draft a franchise QB is the goal, then it makes sense to excise those players from the roster immediately.
papazoid Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Sammy was GONE in 2018......was never signing with bills. this is about acquiring the assets needed to move up into the Top 5 of 2018 draft and getting a QB
sullim4 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I don't understand the people who say that we were headed for a 7-9 or 8-8 season but now are looking at 4-12. Watkins is not worth 4 wins. Shady McCoy? Sure. But not Sammy. Taylor never made him a consistent target and Sammy was off the field way too often. I like the trade. They get a high second rounder for someone who was going to leave next year unless we used the franchise tag (in which case he becomes a malcontent).
Buddo Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I'm fine with the Darby move - seems like decent value. I don't believe he's a 'bad scheme fit', for one moment, but I can see he has more value in a 'man' scheme, hence a trade that gets us value. I simply don't like the Watkins trade. If he gets injured again, then hindsight will say it's a good move. If he doesn't, then he will be the cause of much angst over the years, as he can be an absolute beast, if he stays healthy. Sometimes I really have to wonder about the mentality of all of the organizations 'football guys'. Did they not see what happens when you don't actually have a quality WR to throw to, when you aren't running the football? Or when you have to try and get down the field in a hurry? Things get ugly, quickly. And they probably will this season, again. Watkins could have been a game changer for the Bills, especially as he and Taylor seem like they have developed chemistry/timing. Talking of chemistry, I wonder what it's going to do to the rest of the team, or more particularly, the offensive side of things. While I'm sure there's a bunch of no name and no good WRs on the roster thinking it's a chance for them to stick, I doubt the O-Line and RBs will be being very impressed.
SectionC3 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 2017 was trending towards a 7-8 win season yesterday and now a 4-5 win season... I'll take the extra draft picks and hope to hit on a franchise QB in next year's draft. I'm fine with the trades and am happy this team seems to have a direction. I'm not sure why there is this sentiment that the trade will cut our win total in half. Darby didn't play well last year, and Sammy missed much of the year, anyway. And, it's not like the replacements for either player are so poor that we necessarily will lose an additional three to four games. Come to think of it, I'm struggling to think of games that Sammy won for us over the years. Maybe the Vikings game during his rookie season, the Lions OT game, and perhaps the Jets road game a few years ago (with the abuse of Revis on the critical conversion). I guess I just don't see him as worth three to four wins a year. And I certainly don't see Darby that way.
BillsFan692 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Let's go on record as to our feelings on the deals today. There are no bs in between answers either. It is a yes or a no. If you were the GM and had the exact same deals on the table would you have made the moves? We are not seperating them out either because they are tied together. Yes, a 2nd and 3rd round pick, and reasonable starting caliber players to replace the losses, I can't see how you don't take that if you are the brand new regime.
SectionC3 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I'm fine with the Darby move - seems like decent value. I don't believe he's a 'bad scheme fit', for one moment, but I can see he has more value in a 'man' scheme, hence a trade that gets us value. I simply don't like the Watkins trade. If he gets injured again, then hindsight will say it's a good move. If he doesn't, then he will be the cause of much angst over the years, as he can be an absolute beast, if he stays healthy. Sometimes I really have to wonder about the mentality of all of the organizations 'football guys'. Did they not see what happens when you don't actually have a quality WR to throw to, when you aren't running the football? Or when you have to try and get down the field in a hurry? Things get ugly, quickly. And they probably will this season, again. Watkins could have been a game changer for the Bills, especially as he and Taylor seem like they have developed chemistry/timing. Talking of chemistry, I wonder what it's going to do to the rest of the team, or more particularly, the offensive side of things. While I'm sure there's a bunch of no name and no good WRs on the roster thinking it's a chance for them to stick, I doubt the O-Line and RBs will be being very impressed. Locker room chemistry is a good point. Time will tell.
Big C Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Basically the haul is: Sammy for Mathews + production, availability - flash, unrealized potential Darby for Gains + run support (scheme critical) - man press (not scheme critical) - contract lock A 6th for a 2nd and a 3rd The sheer economics of this move is pretty rock solid, provided these guys can prove they know how to draft. Once you get beyond the emotions of the loss of a bonafide "superstar" I'm more inclined to agree here. It depends on what we do with the picks, of course. But the logic is sound. Sammy could light it up this year, but he has so far shown no leadership and he seems to me like the opposite of a guy you want to pay during a rebuild. He may not be an OBJ-type diva, but so far he's spoken about how he isn't being targeted enough and about how much money he deserves, etc. and not much else. Not once in the time he's been here has it seemed like he was the face of our franchise or even wanted to be. Tyrod, Shady, Kyle, Wood and a few others have totally embraced their role on the team and have backed it up on the field (granted, to varying degrees). If we had traded any of those guys I'd be more concerned about a tank job than I am now. Edited August 11, 2017 by Big C
BillsFan692 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I'm not sure why there is this sentiment that the trade will cut our win total in half. Darby didn't play well last year, and Sammy missed much of the year, anyway. And, it's not like the replacements for either player are so poor that we necessarily will lose an additional three to four games. Come to think of it, I'm struggling to think of games that Sammy won for us over the years. Maybe the Vikings game during his rookie season, the Lions OT game, and perhaps the Jets road game a few years ago (with the abuse of Revis on the critical conversion). I guess I just don't see him as worth three to four wins a year. And I certainly don't see Darby that way. I certainly remember Sammy dropping a few critical passes in game winning drives.
thurst44 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 My view is that the LBs and secondary are going to be very big weaknesses. With Darby gone, you have Seymour or Gaines (both downgrades) starting at corner. One CB injured and I don't know how they could even play nickel. No safety depth and only 2 starting caliber LBs on the team. Seymour has played solid football for a rookie, Shareece Wright and Leonard Johnson are actually very respected veterans, and the cornerbacks played pretty outstanding last year. EJ Gaines has played two decent years. At safety, I agree it's a concern, but Rambo played that part quite effectively a couple years ago. If Hyde gets hurt and/or Poyer bombs, maybe one of the unknowns pops up. As for LBs, I'm concerned, but were you concerned when Zach Brown and Lorenzo Alexander were going to be starters? Preston Brown has been stepping up like his rookie season, Humber seems to be playing well. Hodges has played quite well in his career (83 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 ints last year) and I'm sorry but I'm not yet giving up on Reggie Ragland yet. He had a much better pre-season game than people are giving him credit for (or at least less bad), and contrary to some people's revisionist opinions, he was highly regarded and more than just someone "Rex wanted." Sure, a lot of things need to go right to be a great team, but it would take a lot more to go wrong to be historically terrible, and I still am a bit baffled as to a 5-11 ceiling. Side note: before we decide who is a "starting caliber" LB (and without even getting into the tale of the Lorax that's only one year old), let's consider this character study. Let's say you just signed a LB who in his first five seasons had 3 sacks and averaged roughly 20 tackles per year...would you be happy about acquiring him? What if you were told you were picking up James Harrison going into his prime? Ok, it's an extreme example, but LBs with seemingly light resumes having solid or even Pro Bowl seasons isn't that rare. Heck, it happened on the Bills (you could argue twice) just last year.
Albwan Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Honestly, I think it's a great move. IMHO the team is (was) mediocre and going nowhere. I love Shady to me he's the lone shining star of the group, but the guy is being wasted in Buffalo. Edited August 11, 2017 by Albwan
Big C Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I certainly remember Sammy dropping a few critical passes in game winning drives. Also shying away from contact and going down easy.
SectionC3 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Seymour has played solid football for a rookie, Shareece Wright and Leonard Johnson are actually very respected veterans, and the cornerbacks played pretty outstanding last year. EJ Gaines has played two decent years. At safety, I agree it's a concern, but Rambo played that part quite effectively a couple years ago. If Hyde gets hurt and/or Poyer bombs, maybe one of the unknowns pops up. As for LBs, I'm concerned, but were you concerned when Zach Brown and Lorenzo Alexander were going to be starters? Preston Brown has been stepping up like his rookie season, Humber seems to be playing well. Hodges has played quite well in his career (83 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 ints last year) and I'm sorry but I'm not yet giving up on Reggie Ragland yet. He had a much better pre-season game than people are giving him credit for (or at least less bad), and contrary to some people's revisionist opinions, he was highly regarded and more than just someone "Rex wanted." Sure, a lot of things need to go right to be a great team, but it would take a lot more to go wrong to be historically terrible, and I still am a bit baffled as to a 5-11 ceiling. Side note: before we decide who is a "starting caliber" LB (and without even getting into the tale of the Lorax that's only one year old), let's consider this character study. Let's say you just signed a LB who in his first five seasons had 3 sacks and averaged roughly 20 tackles per year...would you be happy about acquiring him? What if you were told you were picking up James Harrison going into his prime? Ok, it's an extreme example, but LBs with seemingly light resumes having solid or even Pro Bowl seasons isn't that rare. Heck, it happened on the Bills (you could argue twice) just last year. Agreed on LB. What did you think of Hodges last night? From my vantage point in the stadium he moved well. But we definitely don't have a ton of speed there (or in our competent WRs, for that matter).
RobRyanFan Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I think these moves are brilliant. While he is a downgrade, I don't think that losing Darby and plugging in Gaines won't cause us to lose any games, especially because Gaines is way better in zone defenses like McDermott's than Darby. I even think that Matthews might be an upgrade over Watkins due to consistency and less of an injury history. Plus we gain 2nd and 3rd round picks and lose a 6th.
xsoldier54 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I absolutely love these moves. The WR corps for this year will be deeper than last year and I'll take Boldin, Jones and Matthews over an injured Watkins, Woods and Goodwin any day of the week. I think the addition of Gaines and subtraction of Darby is a wash. And having two picks in each of the first three rounds next year sets us up for long term success. Bills were big winners today in every way I can imagine.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) I'm more inclined to agree here. It depends on what we do with the picks, of course. But the logic is sound. Sammy could light it up this year, but he has so far shown no leadership and he seems to me like the opposite of a guy you want to pay during a rebuild. He may not be an OBJ-type diva, but so far he's spoken about how he isn't being targeted enough and about how much money he deserves, etc. and not much else. Not once in the time he's been here has it seemed like he was the face of our franchise or even wanted to be. Tyrod, Shady, Kyle, Wood and a few others have totally embraced their role on the team and have backed it up on the field (granted, to varying degrees). If we had traded any of those guys I'd be more concerned about a tank job than I am now. I shyed away from the leadership and diva stuff in the minuses, because I didn't want to pile on, but I agree with your synopsis. This coach and GM are trying to build a TEAM. Not a roster of talented guys that don't compliment each other but instead where the whole exceeds the sum of the parts. The open point of course is to see if they know what he he'll they are doing. Edited August 11, 2017 by Over 29 years of fanhood
BUFFALOKIE Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I'm fine with the move. I don't think that Sammy or Darby were the key to the playoffs. I bet Zay steps up big time and Q makes us forget all about sammy.
Perry Turtle Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Before the trade the Bills projected needs in the draft were franchise QB, OT, LB and maybe S. After the trade, their needs will be Franchise QB, outside WR, CB, OT, LB, and safety. Another draft where OL will not be adressed thanks to other needs. This trade is more of the same. Running to stand still.
BUFFALOKIE Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) I will bet anyone here my entire yearly salary that the Bills will not lose any more games in 2017 because of these trades....any takers? I will one up my own bet: I guarantee the Buffalo Bills will lose no more than 16 games this year. I'd bet your life on it. Takers? Edited August 11, 2017 by BUFFALOKIE
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