Doc Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Bills have been the farm team of the NFL for years with all the bad trades (Lynch, Peters, Cassel) that they have made. To think they could have had UB's Khalil Mack. Add 2014 as another draft where the Bills got nothing. Cassel? LOL!
Straight Hucklebuck Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Cassel? LOL! Yeah Dock, this team is so flippant about disposing of their talent and trading for other teams losers, I'm supposed to have faith that this regime can magically draft well? Sammy I'm ok with, he is soft. But I didn't like the Darby move at all and have no faith in the 2nd and 3rd Round pick they got. The Bills are a farm team because the weight of losing always makes them fire their Coaches and FO which means constant roster turnover. No team gets less out of their talent and draft picks as the Buffalo Bills.
JM2009 Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) Yeah Dock, this team is so flippant about disposing of their talent and trading for other teams losers, I'm supposed to have faith that this regime can magically draft well? Sammy I'm ok with, he is soft. But I didn't like the Darby move at all and have no faith in the 2nd and 3rd Round pick they got. The Bills are a farm team because the weight of losing always makes them fire their Coaches and FO which means constant roster turnover. No team gets less out of their talent and draft picks as the Buffalo Bills. The draft picks retained the last decade or so is terrible. Whole draft classes gone. Edited August 13, 2017 by JM2009
Kipers Hair Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 This is a move straight out of Bill Belichick's book...it's not a good move, it's effing brilliant and about time we did something forward looking as opposed to moves to sell tickets or fool the fanbase into believing we are winners at current. Don't stop at good - strive for great.
Doc Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Yeah Dock, this team is so flippant about disposing of their talent and trading for other teams losers, I'm supposed to have faith that this regime can magically draft well? Sammy I'm ok with, he is soft. But I didn't like the Darby move at all and have no faith in the 2nd and 3rd Round pick they got. The Bills are a farm team because the weight of losing always makes them fire their Coaches and FO which means constant roster turnover. No team gets less out of their talent and draft picks as the Buffalo Bills. Are you perhaps thinking Cassel is someone else? Matt Cassel sucked in the brief time he was with the Bills and sucked after he left. As for Darby, he played horribly last year in the same scheme he played in 2015. I didn't have much hope that he would rebound this year especially playing in a scheme that he's not as suited for so I had no problem with that trade.
Straight Hucklebuck Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Are you perhaps thinking Cassel is someone else? Matt Cassel sucked in the brief time he was with the Bills and sucked after he left. As for Darby, he played horribly last year in the same scheme he played in 2015. I didn't have much hope that he would rebound this year especially playing in a scheme that he's not as suited for so I had no problem with that trade. I threw Cassel in there as an example because any common street fan knew he was completely washed up. But there were the gullible Bills, wasting a draft pick to get him to come in and "compete" for the starting position. Gag me. This team is so flippant throwing away their talent and trading picks for other teams garbage, see Bryce Brown.
Doc Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 I threw Cassel in there as an example because any common street fan knew he was completely washed up. But there were the gullible Bills, wasting a draft pick to get him to come in and "compete" for the starting position. Gag me. This team is so flippant throwing away their talent and trading picks for other teams garbage, see Bryce Brown. Cassel was acquired using s 5th and 7th rounder and they got back a 6th. They then traded him for a 5th. They actually made out With him when all was said and done. Brown was a mistake. But that's the great thing about hindsight.
Boatdrinks Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 After this year you either needed the the 5th year option or a franchise tag and both only gave you one year at 13 million or more. Then you would need a long term deal or lose him for nothing. The Bills got something for him. This is the first thing that has been different - keeping Sammy is the status Quo and the losing - having a vision that we are going to try and get a franchise QB and some players around him that is new. Will it work? We need to see, but you comfortable with losing would be to maintain the same old stuff with a guy that has brought them no where. Lol okay . Yes 5th year option is a higher amount but perfectly manageable for this team with no huge QB contract. Trying to get a franchise QB is great ( they failed last time they tried with EJ in round 1) but hardly some novel concept. This theoretical QB will also need targets, and Watkins may have been a key there. Moving talented players out doesn't seem like some great step toward winning. That long term deal for SW wouldn't have come for possibly two more full seasons. If he played great you pay him. Keeping SW through 2018 would not have impeded the drafting of a potential franchise QB at all. Just leaves them with another hole to fill.
Straight Hucklebuck Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Cassel was acquired using s 5th and 7th rounder and they got back a 6th. They then traded him for a 5th. They actually made out With him when all was said and done. Brown was a mistake. But that's the great thing about hindsight. Doc that's the thing....these guys are paid to know more than common fans. So how is Beane any different? I don't listen to McDermott, I've tuned him out completely at this point. Walking cliche generator.
Boatdrinks Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Cassel was acquired using s 5th and 7th rounder and they got back a 6th. They then traded him for a 5th. They actually made out With him when all was said and done. Brown was a mistake. But that's the great thing about hindsight. Cassell was also a mistake. He cost them the pick they needed to land Brandon Marshall just days later. It was down to the Jets and Bills and they CHI took the Jets pick because the Bills had dealt the higher of their two picks in that round (5th) to get Cassell . They may have made up for the pick somewhat, but having Marshall might have helped things. Doc that's the thing....these guys are paid to know more than common fans. So how is Beane any different? I don't listen to McDermott, I've tuned him out completely at this point. Walking cliche generator. Man I hate that tired line about hindsight. Just an excuse. These FO guys are paid a lot of $$$ to be right. To have something called foresight that the average fan doesn't have. This is a move straight out of Bill Belichick's book...it's not a good move, it's effing brilliant and about time we did something forward looking as opposed to moves to sell tickets or fool the fanbase into believing we are winners at current. Don't stop at good - strive for great. I'm not seeing the comparison. BB can do what he does because he has Tom Brady. Getting fleeced out of Watkins for a second is hardly a brilliant, nor is it forward looking. It leaves a hole that must be filled via spending more draft capital or overpaying a FA. Much easier to just keep Watkins at his low number for this year, a manageable number in 2018 and see if he's worth the extension, but giving your potential QB a target for a couple years . This move is just more of the same. Let talent go before you have to pay market rate, get an aging vet whose best years are behind him to " hold it down". wash, rinse, repeat.
Straight Hucklebuck Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) Cassell was also a mistake. He cost them the pick they needed to land Brandon Marshall just days later. It was down to the Jets and Bills and they CHI took the Jets pick because the Bills had dealt the higher of their two picks in that round (5th) to get Cassell . They may have made up for the pick somewhat, but having Marshall might have helped things. Man I hate that tired line about hindsight. Just an excuse. These FO guys are paid a lot of $$$ to be right. To have something called foresight that the average fan doesn't have. Exactly. Three years later and Whaley whiffed on QB, Coach, Watkins. His best accomplishment is the Eagles calling him about McCoy. Before that it was 71 year old Nix who again whiffed on Coach and who got caught on tape bashing his QB and gave away a HOF RB for complete garbage. Now Beane comes in and ships 2 of the Bills Top 4 talents out the door for average players and some picks? And after 22 years of not one Playoff win I'm supposed to have faith that he knows what he's doing? All around the Bills reek of losing. Pegula can't find the right people to get either team on the Playoffs, Brandon is still here, and we trade what little talent we have for more draft picks. This regime has already shown its cards to me, and it's not good. Gilmore walks, draft a CB to replace him and pass on two excellent college QBs while giving the Ravens backup QB his 3rd year starting ala Trent and Fitzpatrick and talk about hard work, running the ball and character. YAWN. We've heard all of this before. Edited August 13, 2017 by Straight Hucklebuck
San-O Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Point one is totally irrelevant - yes I would draft a 24 yr old SW in the first if he was under a rookie contract and the injuries were not there. I would not draft a 24 yr old SW with the known injury history and knowing you need to sign him at 13-15 million a year contract with the injury history. You trade the guy to get a younger version that is price controlled for 4 or 5 years and fits the scheme you want to run. The Julio Jones comparison is great if we had Matt Ryan and a passing offense, but that is not what we are doing this year or probably next year - so get something and move on. and so ends the Sammy Watkins debacle. At least they got SOMETHING for him. I think he probably plays half the season hurt/injured again and this point is totally forgotten.
r00tabaga Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) You have never watched the Eagles if you think Watkins and Matthews play at close to the same speed. 16 ypc vs. 11 ypc. JM is a possession receiver and SW has Julio Lite ability. You don't happen to know their 3 year stats do you? Ya know, just so we can compare Julio and Watkins. Edited August 13, 2017 by r00tabaga
26CornerBlitz Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 and so ends the Sammy Watkins debacle. At least they got SOMETHING for him. I think he probably plays half the season hurt/injured again and this point is totally forgotten. Based on what?
Straight Hucklebuck Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 The Bills made the trades, therefore neither one will work out because the Bills have a long-standing tradition of losing.
KRT88 Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) We finally gave a front office that shows some asset management skills and they are getting bashed. It was 80% Sammy was gonna walk at the end of the year. Was he gonna stay healthy enough(10 injuries in 3 years) to have a career year and get franchise tagged? And if we do that I'm guessing TT was actually pretty good! The Darby move was shipping a man to man corner out and getting a zone guy back. That mice shocked me more than anything else, but people complaining Matthews is a slot guys makes no sense. He's 6-3, he can line up all over the place. I'm hopeful they will be good this but I'm not any more or less hopeful today than 3 days ago. The team has flaws and lacks depth in key areas. However, now we have 6 picks in top 3 rounds and if management plays it cards correctly, a 7th will be added. Now please get a QB so it can all mean something. Edited August 13, 2017 by KRT88
The Frankish Reich Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Running 2 to 1 in favor of the trades now after almost 400 votes from the most football savvy fans out there in Billsland. I gave the trades a thumbs up because the choice was a straight up/down. I would really have voted for an option that reads, "I liked the trades, but I don't like the timing." I realize they were showcasing Sammy in preseason game 1, so maybe he needed to show he could still stay on the field (for a whole quarter!) before he had any trade value, but setting that aside, I wish all of these moves had happened back in the winter or spring. I also wish they'd fired Whaley earlier, and that they'd moved on from Tyrod. In other words, not a half rebuild but a full one. But having re-signed Tyrod and given some of the big contracts and the impossibility of moving them (Glenn, Clay, Dareus), I see the sense in this. I don't think the Bills are a whole lot worse in 2017 because of these moves; if I were a betting man, I'd lower my estimate from 7-9 to 6-10. The main problem is that the Planet Alignment Theory that we needed to go, say, 10-6 -- the theory in which Sammy plays 16 healthy games, in which Darby plays like the rookie Darby, in which Zay Jones is the real deal and Dareus seems motivated again -- that theory is kind of out the window. But it wasn't likely to begin with. Now making the playoffs means going 4-0 against the Jets/Dolphins, staying unusually healthy, and getting some lucky bounces (one of those quirky high + turnover ratios). So I'm disappointed for 2017 because I think there's a little less cause for optimism than there was a few days ago, but I am glad overall to see a GM/coach who seem to have a realistic concept of where we are and where we need to be -- and most importantly, when we can get there -- to expect to win 10 games and be a legitimate contender for at least a 3-4 year run. But that run now starts in about 2020 ....
QCity Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 It was 80% Sammy was gonna walk at the end of the year. 80%??? That's pretty optimistic. I'd say it's more in the 98-99% range. One of the ironic things about Sammy's tenure here is that he is chastised for one infamous tweet, but he has pretty much said all the right things since the day he was drafted. He told us this was the team he always wanted to play for as a kid, he wants to spend his career here, etc, etc. He was clearly groomed well by his agency -- as all high draft picks are in this age of social media. He also never threw his QB under the bus, but actions speak louder than words. We all watch the games. We've seen Sammy streaking wide open down the sidelines for an easy TD while TT over/underthrows him by 10 yards, only to see him throw his arms up in the air and stamp his feet in disgust. Does that look like he's having fun? Do you think it's fun for him to sit on his couch and watch his peers play in the Pro Bowl every year? Think about that. Even in today's silly watered-down Pro Bowl alternate system Sammy can't even come close to an invite. Bah, he probably doesn't want the recognition, right? I'm sure it must be fun to watch OBJ become an absolute superstar and national celebrity. Are we going to pretend that Sammy and his agent didn't notice the NFL-record $48M Nike contract that OBJ signed? Nah, he probably doesn't care about the money -- his last July tweet about how NFL players have to get paid more was probably a joke. When we didn't pick up his option the guy didn't even seem upset. If teams like Dallas and Oakland came after him in the FA market, does anyone here still believe he would choose us over them? It's time for fans to put their emotions aside and accept the fact that this guy wasn't re-signing here. Picking up his option or tagging him wasn't going to vault us to the Superbowl, it was only delaying the inevitable and putting us on the hook in the event of an injury.
BillsFan4 Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 If you're going to trade your best WR for a second round pick, why sign a #4 WR when he's going to cost you a third rounder? It makes no sense. McD was calling the shots then and now. If Beane was looking ahead to that pick, Ducasse, Davis and Holmes would already be gone. It doesn't seem to me like McDermott is calling the shots. Beane said he didn't even tell him about the Sammy trade until the night before it happened. Then they all discussed it - Pegula, McDermott and Beane and came to a conclusion. That sounds to me like a group effort, which is what they've said all along. They hadn't traded Sammy yet when they signed Holmes though, and they could still end up cutting him and the others for the 3rd round comp pick. I still think that's a likely scenario that they cut 3 of those 4 players for the comp pick. Especially if they're able to fill those holes when rosters are cut down to 53. Again though, it's not just Holmes they need to cut. So it's not him alone that costs them a comp pick. It's 3 of these 4 players - Ducasse, Holmes, DiMarco (or Ryan Davis, I've seen both listed), and Stephen Hauschka. Also, I'm not sure I'd say it makes no sense to sign needed players to fill out your roster, instead of getting a 3rd round comp pick a year from now (which is really a 4th round pick, since it is given after the 3rd round is over).
The Frankish Reich Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 And just for fun, some old threads suggesting we trade Sammy - kind of fun to look at the outrage at the very idea at the start, followed by a bunch of "but what could we realistically get for him" comments, and finally this spring the "we waited too long" realization. 1. After the 2014 season: https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174558-trade-sammy-for-first-round-pick/?hl=trade+sammy https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174837-no-first-round-pick-why-not-trade-sammy/?hl=trade%20sammy 2. After Week 1, 2015: https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/180914-trade-sam-watkins-to-dallas-for-a-1-and-a-3/?hl=trade+sammy&do=findComment&comment=3682930 3. After his option was declined: https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/193747-we-should-trade-sammy/?hl=trade+sammy
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