Bills trade Sammy Watkins to Rams for CB Gaines, 2nd rd pick

[thebandit27]

speaking of. If you haven't gone to Ru's Pierogi, go now.

 

Oh yeah...really, really good stuff.

 

In fact, now I'm going for lunch tomorrow.

[PolishDave]

speaking of. If you haven't gone to Ru's Pierogi, go now.

 

Duly noted. I shall.

 

What do you get there, burgers?

[mrags]

 

Oh yeah...really, really good stuff.

 

In fact, now I'm going for lunch tomorrow.

i worked with the owner for a few years. Awesome guy. Awesome food. Hope he continues to do well.

 

And FYI, I dont believe talking about a replacement at WR a waste. Fact is we traded for a WR that has produced more in the same amount of time in the league as Sammy. Fact is he has been hurt and missed less games. I will give you the fact that if Sammy plays on every game his stats are likely more but the fact is still that Sammy does and has missed games. And Mathews is on this roster and Sammy is not.

 

My other issue is we can continue to talk about Gaining a true #1 WR going forward it we do not have to keep bringing Sammy up when doing it. It's not even like the guy was here very long. 3 years and that's it. It's time to move on.

 

Duly noted. I shall.

 

What do you get there, burgers?

something like that Edited September 5, 2017 by mrags

[Magox]

 

 

And as BADOL says: the offense actually functioned fine with Gillislee and Karlos when Shady went out...the team's YPC average actually improved. With Watkins out, the QB's YPA took a dip. That's the point.

 

 

Shouldn't the point be how the offense and team did with or without him?

 

Obviously, you didn't watch how well "the same offensive line" from last year played in the new offensive scheme with new blocking schemes ... or you choose to ignore it. FYI, it wasn't "the same", either, most notably that LT Cordy Glenn only played in the last preseason game and useless veteran Vlad Ducasse pretended to play RG as much as Miller. Oh, and the offense could barely run two consecutive offensive plays without the offensive line incurring a holding penalty or two. The pass pro was rivaled the legendary pass protection put up by Dick Jauron's offensive offenses of a few years ago.

 

I'll defer my judgement of the offensive line and offense once the regular season begins.

[YoloinOhio]

 

Obviously, you didn't watch how well "the same offensive line" from last year played in the new offensive scheme with new blocking schemes ... or you choose to ignore it. FYI, it wasn't "the same", either, most notably that LT Cordy Glenn only played in the last preseason game and useless veteran Vlad Ducasse pretended to play RG as much as Miller. Oh, and the offense could barely run two consecutive offensive plays without the offensive line incurring a holding penalty or two. The pass pro was rivaled the legendary pass protection put up by Dick Jauron's offensive offenses of a few years ago.

it is the same OL as he had last year in the regular season. Every team plays backups in the preseason. The starting OL can be judged on their play within the new blocking scheme once they actually play in it as a unit. Edited September 5, 2017 by YoloinOhio

[Alphadawg7]

I'm liking this move more! Not hearing much of Sammy lately

 

LMAO, because you didn't hear about a player who like most starters sat out the final preseason week you now like the move? LOL

 

I can tell you here in LA, he's been consistently showing his Elite talent in practice and has had no injury concerns.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[thebandit27]

i worked with the owner for a few years. Awesome guy. Awesome food. Hope he continues to do well.

 

And FYI, I dont believe talking about a replacement at WR a waste. Fact is we traded for a WR that has produced more in the same amount of time in the league as Sammy. Fact is he has been hurt and missed less games. I will give you the fact that if Sammy plays on every game his stats are likely more but the fact is still that Sammy does and has missed games. And Mathews is on this roster and Sammy is not.

 

My other issue is we can continue to talk about Gaining a true #1 WR going forward it we do not have to keep bringing Sammy up when doing it. It's not even like the guy was here very long. 3 years and that's it. It's time to move on.

something like that

 

I think it makes sense to mention Sammy in reference to the impact that it can have on a QB like Taylor--who thrives when he can throw the ball with anticipation and hit deep throws.

 

As for Sammy vs. Matthews, it's interesting to me. It took Sammy missing 8 games for Matthews to have more yards than Sammy; I feel like it's a significant downgrade in ability, which I'd be accepting of (in light of the extra draft pick) so long as there were a marked difference in availability. The irony of course being that, right now, only one of the two is definitely on track to play in week 1, and unfortunately for us it's not Matthews.

 

With regard to Ru's, yeah, those dudes have carved out quite a niche. They're not going anywhere.

 

 

Shouldn't the point be how the offense and team did with or without him?

 

 

It was...look, I'm open to changing my disposition on the offense's performance with/without Sammy; I simply need someone to put into context why the passing yardage from the QB is 40% better on a per-attempt basis with him in the lineup if he has no impact on the QB's quality of play?

 

I don't mean to harp on one stat as though it's the end-all; I do, however, think it's quite an indicator.

Edited September 5, 2017 by thebandit27

[Doc]

Interesting.

 

It must have been damn near miraculous that the Bills were able to go 6-2 without Sammy this past season, you know with him being "much less replaceable" and all.

 

Tyrod passed for 1527 yards without Sammy and 1496 with him. So there goes that one.

[Magox]

It was...look, I'm open to changing my disposition on the offense's performance with/without Sammy; I simply need someone to put into context why the passing yardage from the QB is 40% better on a per-attempt basis with him in the lineup if he has no impact on the QB's quality of play?

 

I don't mean to harp on one stat as though it's the end-all; I do, however, think it's quite an indicator.

 

I think the main point that I'm alluding to is that this team really didn't drop off a cliff when Sammy was injured and not playing. That if this team sputters on the offensive side of the ball it most likely won't be because of Sammy not being here but rather a team that didn't adjust to the new offensive scheme.

 

I predict that both on the offensive and defensive side of the ball that the Bills will be considerably filled with more talent 2-3 years from what it looks like now, which really isn't that far off from where we've been the past couple years, when you really stop to think about it.

 

Tyrod passed for 1527 yards without Sammy and 1496 with him. So there goes that one.

 

I'm aware of the stats, I ask these questions not because I'm curious to know them but because sometimes it helps put things into perspective when they are answered in such a way.

[GoBills808]

 

It was...look, I'm open to changing my disposition on the offense's performance with/without Sammy; I simply need someone to put into context why the passing yardage from the QB is 40% better on a per-attempt basis with him in the lineup if he has no impact on the QB's quality of play?

 

I don't mean to harp on one stat as though it's the end-all; I do, however, think it's quite an indicator.

It's not hard to see how a dynamic playmaking WR with good hands allows a QB to throw downfield and thus the distinction between YPA with Watkins in and out of the lineup. But whether or not YPA in and of itself is an indicator of how well a QB or passing offense as a whole functions...that's a lot less clear and I think it's an important point to make when trying to draw conclusions from certain statistics.

[thebandit27]

 

Tyrod passed for 1527 yards without Sammy and 1496 with him. So there goes that one.

 

Tyrod without Sammy in 2016: 149/244 (61.1%), 1,527 yds (6.23 YPA), 7 TDs, 3 INTs

Tyrod with Sammy in 2016: 121/193 (62.7%), 1,496 yds (7.75 YPA), 10 TDs, 3 INTs

 

Context matters Doc; you know that.

 

EDIT: I should note that the above includes the 2 games at the beginning of the season where it was obvious that Sammy couldn't get around well out there, but it would be disingenuous to simply remove them from the data set. If you did remove them to analyze the difference between "no Sammy" and "healthy Sammy", the YPA goes up by another half-yard and the TD:INT goes to 7:2.

 

I think the main point that I'm alluding to is that this team really didn't drop off a cliff when Sammy was injured and not playing. That if this team sputters on the offensive side of the ball it most likely won't be because of Sammy not being here but rather a team that didn't adjust to the new offensive scheme.

 

I predict that both on the offensive and defensive side of the ball that the Bills will be considerably filled with more talent 2-3 years from what it looks like now, which really isn't that far off from where we've been the past couple years, when you really stop to think about it.

 

 

For your first point, no, it didn't. I think that much of that has to do with how heavily they relied upon the run, and how effectively they executed their run game. For me, the impact on the pass game will come when Tyrod needs to get the ball out quickly (which, IMO, will be often in this scheme). For 2 years, the only guy he seemed to trust implicitly was Watkins; I'm worried that he'll struggle when he doesn't have the guy he knows will be where he's supposed to be when he needs him to be there. It appeared to happen often in the preseason, but you know I don't put much stock into that.

 

To your second point: that's a distinct possibility and a relevant point.

Edited September 5, 2017 by thebandit27

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Tyrod without Sammy in 2016: 149/244 (61.1%), 1,527 yds (6.23 YPA), 7 TDs, 3 INTs

Tyrod with Sammy in 2016: 121/193 (62.7%), 1,496 yds (7.75 YPA), 10 TDs, 3 INTs

 

Context matters Doc; you know that.

 

 

No, Doc doesn't know that. This is his MO.

 

Unfortunately he's either one of the most unobservant or illogical posters on this board or simply one of it's biggest trolls.

[Magox]

 

Tyrod without Sammy in 2016: 149/244 (61.1%), 1,527 yds (6.23 YPA), 7 TDs, 3 INTs

Tyrod with Sammy in 2016: 121/193 (62.7%), 1,496 yds (7.75 YPA), 10 TDs, 3 INTs

 

Context matters Doc; you know that.

 

For me, the impact on the pass game will come when Tyrod needs to get the ball out quickly (which, IMO, will be often in this scheme). For 2 years, the only guy he seemed to trust implicitly was Watkins; I'm worried that he'll struggle when he doesn't have the guy he knows will be where he's supposed to be when he needs him to be there.

 

 

 

You could be right. If that happens then the blame goes primarily to TT and he can't be over reliant on a single person to make his reads. Personally, I think Zay is going to be a decent player even as a rookie, Matthews I believe will get open from the slot and with Clay and McCoy you have two more weapons that can catch the ball for you. If the run blocking is there this year similar to the previous two, there really isn't any reason for TT to have a decent statistical year, by his standards of course.

[Alphadawg7]

 

Tyrod passed for 1527 yards without Sammy and 1496 with him. So there goes that one.

 

Come on, did anyone even watch 2016 season? Anybody who counts those games of Sammy's is just nuts. He was nothing more than a decoy hobbling around out there and didn't really get close to remotely healthy until week 15.

 

Also, how many games with and without him...you can't just say yards and not the amount of games to get to those yards.

 

TT and Sammy played in about 10 games together when Sammy was healthy...last 9 of 2015 and the last game TT started last year before sitting for the EJ/Cardale crap show

[mrags]

Anybody who watched the Bills and has just SOME sense of football acumen could see Sammys a TERRIFIC player.

 

According to your logic nobodys done anything to win for this football team since 1999. Does that mean Kyle Williams is a big fat loser?

anyone could see that he was also injured and didn't play in 8 games last year.

 

Of those 8 games he did play we had a 2-6 record. In those games he also had terrible outings. In his best game, 7 receptions for 154 yards and a TD we lost to the Dolphins. In his 2nd best game he had 3 catches for 80 yards. Any other game and his best outing was 4 receptions for 54 yards and also a TD, again we lost, to the Steelers.

 

So our record was actually better without Sammy in the lineup.

 

It's almost inarguable that Tyrods best game last year was against the jets in week 2 when he threw for 18 of 30, 297 yards and 3 TDs in which Sammy only accounted for 1 catch for 4 yards.

 

Or maybe we can talk about his next best game against the Seahawks where he was 27 of 38 for 289 with 1 TD where Sammy was at home on the couch.

 

It doesn't matter really because anyone can finds stats to probe their point. No one really knows how Taylor feels about Sammy or what kind of repor they had. No one here can actually say for certain that Sammy was a good teammate and they all wished he was back. Sure, we can all point to player interviews but no player will openly bash another player they played with. It just doesn't happen. Just like how Bill Belicheck will always call his opponent a really tough team and a tough game regardless if they win by 2 or 50.

 

The only facts are that obviously the coaches and GM on the team saw him as expendable for a guy that everyone wants to bash even though he has produced more over the same period of time. Regardless, those that say Sammy could have been more had he been healthy, is not only ridiculous, it is another shot at the guy for not being able to push through injuries and play. It's obvious that Sammys doctors as team doctors thought he could play in week 1 and 2. Had it been any different they wouldn't have put him out there. It is ridiculous to say he could have had more yards or receptions because nobody knows for sure what happens. Maybe if Mathews didn't have 4 different QBs in 3 years (Sanchez, Foles, Bradford (before he became good), and Wentz (as a rookie) he could have produced even more. It's a vicious cycle that stats can prove anything from either side and the only thing that matters is who is actually on this team now and who plays 3k miles away.

[dave mcbride]

 

Using YPA to prove how good a WR/QB combo is? How many wins did that equate to? How many playoff appearances?

Ypa is arguably the most important stat in football when looking for correlations with winning. It's pretty well established, actually.

[Coach Tuesday]

This was such a dumb trade.

[dave mcbride]

anyone could see that he was also injured and didn't play in 8 games last year.

 

Of those 8 games he did play we had a 2-6 record. In those games he also had terrible outings. In his best game, 7 receptions for 154 yards and a TD we lost to the Dolphins. In his 2nd best game he had 3 catches for 80 yards. Any other game and his best outing was 4 receptions for 54 yards and also a TD, again we lost, to the Steelers.

 

So our record was actually better without Sammy in the lineup.

 

It's almost inarguable that Tyrods best game last year was against the jets in week 2 when he threw for 18 of 30, 297 yards and 3 TDs in which Sammy only accounted for 1 catch for 4 yards.

 

Or maybe we can talk about his next best game against the Seahawks where he was 27 of 38 for 289 with 1 TD where Sammy was at home on the couch.

 

It doesn't matter really because anyone can finds stats to probe their point. No one really knows how Taylor feels about Sammy or what kind of repor they had. No one here can actually say for certain that Sammy was a good teammate and they all wished he was back. Sure, we can all point to player interviews but no player will openly bash another player they played with. It just doesn't happen. Just like how Bill Belicheck will always call his opponent a really tough team and a tough game regardless if they win by 2 or 50.

 

The only facts are that obviously the coaches and GM on the team saw him as expendable for a guy that everyone wants to bash even though he has produced more over the same period of time. Regardless, those that say Sammy could have been more had he been healthy, is not only ridiculous, it is another shot at the guy for not being able to push through injuries and play. It's obvious that Sammys doctors as team doctors thought he could play in week 1 and 2. Had it been any different they wouldn't have put him out there. It is ridiculous to say he could have had more yards or receptions because nobody knows for sure what happens. Maybe if Mathews didn't have 4 different QBs in 3 years (Sanchez, Foles, Bradford (before he became good), and Wentz (as a rookie) he could have produced even more. It's a vicious cycle that stats can prove anything from either side and the only thing that matters is who is actually on this team now and who plays 3k miles away.

It is 100 percent inarguable that taylor's best game last season was against miami in week 16, which i count as a bills win because of the truly atrocious refereeing. He threw a bad pick late agains the jets that really hurt their chances.

[Magox]

This was such a dumb trade.

 

I agree, I'm not sure what the Rams were thinking.

[GoBills808]

Ypa is arguably the most important stat in football when looking for correlations with winning. It's pretty well established, actually.

No, it's not. ANY/A is the statistic most correlated with winning . YPA is the 5th most important: http://www.footballperspective.com/correlating-passing-stats-with-wins/