26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 What are you disagreeing with? Either: (1) That I said we have guys that can go deep: Matthews (4.46), Jones (4.45), Streater (4.37), Brown (4.37), Lewis (4.46), Ross (4.36)? or (2) That I said Brown, Lewis, and Ross are not super talented? ("Not arguing Brown, Lewis, or Ross are super talented." - Me) Listing these guys at all as if they've shown themselves to be anything resembling deep threats at the NFL level because of 40 times. Matthews is no deep threat. We hope Zay Jones will be, but he's yet to play a real game. The rest of those guys are nobodies.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 Listing these guys at all as if they've shown themselves to be anything resembling deep threats at the NFL level because of 40 times. Matthews is no deep threat. We hope Zay Jones will be, but he's yet to play a real game. The rest of those guys are nobodies. Goodwin is a nobody, but we still considered him a deep threat last year, no? I think most fans did. You can keep ignoring that I'm conceding half of them aren't that talented if it makes you feel good, but I'll keep refuting I said it. For Matthews, I think you'll remember I posted this yesterday: "BTW for long catches (just by looking at the long for each game log and taking those 30+ yards): - Matthews has catches for 44, 40, 33, 30, 43, 78, 41, 30, 32, 33, 54, and 32 yards in his career - Watkins has catches for 43, 42, 35, 84, 30, 38, 37, 48, 47, 53, 48, 63, 39, 53, and 62 yards in his career" Streater has consistently made long catches in camp, but I'm sure the goal posts will be moved to not just guys who can do it while the pads are on, but against only 1s and only during regular season games. He's been more of an intermediate guy in the past couple years (catching a lot of 15-20 yard passes), but I'm assuming his catches of 26, 48, 27, 36, 66, 44, and 28 in 2013 are just too far back to count for anything. Same with 2012, there's no way his catches of 38, 58, 64, 25, or 23 mean anything. Zay Jones? He had catches of 33, 33, 26, 20, 21, 51, 39, and 77 at ECU last year, but I'm sure the excuse for that is he was only the most productive WR in college. The focus will be that he played against West Carolina, UCF, USF, UConn, Tulsa, and SMU, not Stanford, South Carolina, Virginia Tech, Cincinnati, Navy, and Temple. Just because Watkins is really fast, doesn't mean other WRs don't get to be fast too.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 Goodwin is a nobody, but we still considered him a deep threat last year, no? I think most fans did. You can keep ignoring that I'm conceding half of them aren't that talented if it makes you feel good, but I'll keep refuting I said it. For Matthews, I think you'll remember I posted this yesterday: "BTW for long catches (just by looking at the long for each game log and taking those 30+ yards): - Matthews has catches for 44, 40, 33, 30, 43, 78, 41, 30, 32, 33, 54, and 32 yards in his career - Watkins has catches for 43, 42, 35, 84, 30, 38, 37, 48, 47, 53, 48, 63, 39, 53, and 62 yards in his career" Streater has consistently made long catches in camp, but I'm sure the goal posts will be moved to not just guys who can do it while the pads are on, but against only 1s and only during regular season games. He's been more of an intermediate guy in the past couple years (catching a lot of 15-20 yard passes), but I'm assuming his catches of 26, 48, 27, 36, 66, 44, and 28 in 2013 are just too far back to count for anything. Same with 2012, there's no way his catches of 38, 58, 64, 25, or 23 mean anything. Zay Jones? He had catches of 33, 33, 26, 20, 21, 51, 39, and 77 at ECU last year, but I'm sure the excuse for that is he was only the most productive WR in college. The focus will be that he played against West Carolina, UCF, USF, UConn, Tulsa, and SMU, not Stanford, South Carolina, Virginia Tech, Cincinnati, Navy, and Temple. Just because Watkins is really fast, doesn't mean other WRs don't get to be fast too. There's a lot more to it than being fast in shorts.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) Not to mention, the WCO Dennison is going to run needs guys that can get YAC, not necessarily catch a deep ball here and there. 2016 Matthews: #78 in NFL (all players) with 256 YAC and 3.5 YAC per reception Watkins: not listed in the top 300 players in the NFL 2015 Matthews: #23 with 433 YAC and 5.1 YAC per reception Watkins: #143 with 167 YAC and 2.8 YAC per reception 2014 Matthews: #26 with 426 YAC and 6.2 YAC per reception Watkins: #49 with 349 YAC and 5.4 YAC per reception Let me guess. Now YAC isn't important in the NFL... (Edit: source https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2016/) DeAndre Hopkins in 2015: "Sammy or somebody said, 'Look, bro, you and me last in YAC,'" Hopkins said. "We were first in balls over 40 yards. It kind of evens out. There's a lot of things I can get better at as an individual, knowing where defenders are, having a better awareness. Those are things I can work on." (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000636124/article/deandre-hopkins-wants-to-fix-his-yac-problem) Edited August 17, 2017 by JohnBonhamRocks
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 Not to mention, the WCO Dennison is going to run needs guys that can get YAC, not necessarily catch a deep ball here and there. 2016 Matthews: #78 in NFL (all players) with 256 YAC and 3.5 YAC per reception Watkins: not listed in the top 300 players in the NFL 2015 Matthews: #23 with 433 YAC and 5.1 YAC per reception Watkins: #143 with 167 YAC and 2.8 YAC per reception 2014 Matthews: #26 with 426 YAC and 6.2 YAC per reception Watkins: #49 with 349 YAC and 5.4 YAC per reception Let me guess. Now YAC isn't important in the NFL... (Edit: source https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2016/) Was Watkins used that way in a WCO in Buffalo? No! He surely showed YAC ability at Clemson and he would have succeeded in Dennison's offense IMO. They were throwing screen passes to Sammy at SJF.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 need talent along with speed ....think Jerry Rice ran the combine 40 in 4.73.....he had the talent YOU advocate despite his lack of great speed....I'll take it.................
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 ....think Jerry Rice ran the combine 40 in 4.73.....he had the talent YOU advocate despite his lack of great speed....I'll take it................. IIRC, Rice ran a 4.59. But his game speed as we all know was far faster than that.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 IIRC, Rice ran a 4.59. But his game speed as we all know was far faster than that. Andre used to run by and run away from defenders all the time. He was a 4.5-4.6 guy. I don't really remember him getting caught from behind. I assume it happened but surely rarely if ever.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 Andre used to run by and run away from defenders all the time. He was a 4.5-4.6 guy. I don't really remember him getting caught from behind. I assume it happened but surely rarely if ever. Reed had excellent game speed and how many combine superstars with stellar workout numbers have been busts in the NFL. Quite a few I'd say.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 So the Combine and OTAs mean nothing because everyone is in shorts. Some WRs can be successful with 4.4-5 speed, so long as they don't play for the Bills currently. Watkins would have been good in this WCO, but it doesn't matter that we traded for a WR with better YAC stats - it just matters that we lost one deep threat. Zay Jones' college production doesn't matter, but let's talk about how Watkins was good at screens at Clemson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 So the Combine and OTAs mean nothing because everyone is in shorts. Some WRs can be successful with 4.4-5 speed, so long as they don't play for the Bills currently. Watkins would have been good in this WCO, but it doesn't matter that we traded for a WR with better YAC stats - it just matters that we lost one deep threat. Zay Jones' college production doesn't matter, but let's talk about how Watkins was good at screens at Clemson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking How do you not get that YAC is a function of how a WR is used in a particular system?
NoSaint Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 If the argument is that they aren't going to use him, and therefore he wasn't worth what he wants to be paid, then at least the trade makes sense on its face. The implication of that, however, is quite disturbing: the team does not feel that a WR of Watkins' caliber is part of assembling a championship team? Yup.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) How do you not get that YAC is a function of how a WR is used in a particular system? Our system is suited for guys who get YAC. We traded away a more expensive guy who isn't good at getting YAC and obtained a less expensive guy who is pretty good at getting YAC. Where's the disconnect? (Edit: added more expensive, less expensive) Edited August 17, 2017 by JohnBonhamRocks
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 Our system is suited for guys who get YAC. We traded away a guy who isn't good at getting YAC and obtained a guy who is pretty good at getting YAC. Where's the disconnect? Again. Watkins played in systems under Hackett, Roman, and Lynn in a role where he wasn't going to get a lot of YAC. It doesn't mean he's not capable of that if given the role in a system that calls for that. Phew!
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 Again. Watkins played in systems under Hackett, Roman, and Lynn in a role where he wasn't going to get a lot of YAC. It doesn't mean he's not capable of that if given the role in a system that calls for that. Phew! Or maybe it's because he's soft.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 Or maybe it's because he's soft. Straight Trolling. I'm out.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 17, 2017 Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) Straight Trolling. I'm out. sorry for posting stats and making sense *Update on our WRs who can't stretch the field: Jones for 22 followed by Streater for 28* Edited August 18, 2017 by JohnBonhamRocks
26CornerBlitz Posted August 18, 2017 Posted August 18, 2017 No Sammy at WR is definitely going to hurt.
Crusher Posted August 18, 2017 Posted August 18, 2017 No Sammy at WR is definitely going to hurt. I really think that his absence will be felt...we saw it with TT during the games Sammy missed.
1st Ammendment NoMas Posted August 18, 2017 Posted August 18, 2017 I really think that his absence will be felt...we saw it with TT during the games Sammy missed. Because TT was locked on him and can't see past it. Peterman threw some nice deep patters tonight.
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