JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 At 61″, 211-pounds, Watkins ran a 4.43 40-yard dash (85th percentile) posting a 109.6 speed score (89th percentile), per playerprofiler.com. At 63″, 212-pounds, Matthews ran a 4.46 40-yard dash (76th percentile) posting a 110.1 speed score (90th percentile), per playerprofiler.com. J-Matt recorded a higher agility score and a much higher catch radius (10.19 vs. 9.97) than Watkins, while the two receivers have nearly identical burst scores. J-Matt also has a 123.3 Nike SPARQ-x score (combination of speed, power, agility, reaction, and quickness) which is in the elite 91st percentile. Watkins SPARQ-x score is 109.3, in the 61st percentile. So to recap, J-Matt has achieved better production in the NFL over the past three seasons, stayed healthier, and is more athletic than Watkins. http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/08/14/mccoy-wrong-watkins-matthews/ But YPC! Matthews just can't go against NFL corners. Only Watkins can do that.
Andrew Son Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 You wish he had gone to a better situation? Why not wish to keep him here? I'd love to have Sammy on this team. Anybody would love him on their team. But I'm going to trust that McBean have a plan to build this team. I am going to let it play out and reserve judgment.
thebandit27 Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 But YPC! Matthews just can't go against NFL corners. Only Watkins can do that. He posted this in another thread, and I took the opportunity to pick it apart. The SPARQ ratings and speed scores are not in any way predictive of big play ability. Sammy has made more big plays and been more productive than Matthews on a per-target basis, and it's not close. The only reason Matthews has slightly better reception/yard/TD numbers is that he's played in 9 more games than Sammy.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 He posted this in another thread, and I took the opportunity to pick it apart. The SPARQ ratings and speed scores are not in any way predictive of big play ability. Sammy has made more big plays and been more productive than Matthews on a per-target basis, and it's not close. The only reason Matthews has slightly better reception/yard/TD numbers is that he's played in 9 more games than Sammy. All one needs to do is look at the 1st two years of their respective careers and the comparison isn't even close with everything you mention in the favor of Watkins. Trying to argue Matthews as the better player just does not add up.
Bill_with_it Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) He posted this in another thread, and I took the opportunity to pick it apart. The SPARQ ratings and speed scores are not in any way predictive of big play ability. Sammy has made more big plays and been more productive than Matthews on a per-target basis, and it's not close. The only reason Matthews has slightly better reception/yard/TD numbers is that he's played in 9 more games than Sammy. You picked nothing apart.The only thing you corrected was more productive with regards to yards per season. Now ill correct you. Two out of the three seasons Mathews had more tds. One out of the three seasons Mathews had more yards. Every season Mathews had more catches. Played in more games than Sammy. So you didnt pick it apart. At 61″, 211-pounds, Watkins ran a 4.43 40-yard dash (85th percentile) posting a 109.6 speed score (89th percentile), per playerprofiler.com. At 63″, 212-pounds, Matthews ran a 4.46 40-yard dash (76th percentile) posting a 110.1 speed score (90th percentile), per playerprofiler.com. J-Matt recorded a higher agility score and a much higher catch radius (10.19 vs. 9.97) than Watkins, while the two receivers have nearly identical burst scores. J-Matt also has a 123.3 Nike SPARQ-x score (combination of speed, power, agility, reaction, and quickness) which is in the elite 91st percentile. Watkins SPARQ-x score is 109.3, in the 61st percentile. So to recap, J-Matt has achieved better production in the NFL over the past three seasons, stayed healthier, and is more athletic than Watkins. All one needs to do is look at the 1st two years of their respective careers and the comparison isn't even close with everything you mention in the favor of Watkins. Trying to argue Matthews as the better player just does not add up. Yeah that 7 game stretch in 2015 that Sammy posted 147 yarss screams favor for Watkins. That screams elite. That screams being worthy of an elite contract.That screams build your offense around that. Edited August 16, 2017 by Bill_with_it
thebandit27 Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 You picked nothing apart. The only thing you corrected was more productive with regards to yards per season. Now ill correct you. Two out of the three seasons Mathews had more tds. One out of the three seasons Mathews had more yards. Every season Mathews had more catches. Played in more games than Sammy. So you didnt pick it apart. At 61″, 211-pounds, Watkins ran a 4.43 40-yard dash (85th percentile) posting a 109.6 speed score (89th percentile), per playerprofiler.com. At 63″, 212-pounds, Matthews ran a 4.46 40-yard dash (76th percentile) posting a 110.1 speed score (90th percentile), per playerprofiler.com. J-Matt recorded a higher agility score and a much higher catch radius (10.19 vs. 9.97) than Watkins, while the two receivers have nearly identical burst scores. J-Matt also has a 123.3 Nike SPARQ-x score (combination of speed, power, agility, reaction, and quickness) which is in the elite 91st percentile. Watkins SPARQ-x score is 109.3, in the 61st percentile. So to recap, J-Matt has achieved better production in the NFL over the past three seasons, stayed healthier, and is more athletic than Watkins. Now go ahead and compare their per-target and per-game production. I dare you. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath. The simple fact is that the only trait in Matthews favor is games played. Everything else goes to Sammy. You'll continue to obfuscate, because that's what you do--and, to your credit, you do it quite well; you've got a lot of posters convinced that you're serious about the things you write. Also, fun fact: one of the two players is available to his team right now...which one?
eball Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Is there really any argument or dispute that the best overall talent in these two trades is Sammy? To me, it doesn't seem debatable; the only question is whether he stays healthy and has a decent QB throwing him the ball. But that's not what these trades were about, and that's where reasonable minds may differ as to whether they were "good" or "bad" trades, both for 2017 and beyond.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) I think the focus on "big play ability" is telling. Do we want long TDs? Sure. We've got guys who run in the 4.3s and 4.4s who can provide that. What we really need though is "consistent play ability" meaning the guy who might not be flashy, but who is performs like he should week in and week out. It's the seasonal luxury sports car vs. daily reliable car debate. I like getting from point A to point B every day, not just 50-75% of them. Edited August 16, 2017 by JohnBonhamRocks
Bill_with_it Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Now go ahead and compare their per-target and per-game production. I dare you. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath. The simple fact is that the only trait in Matthews favor is games played. Everything else goes to Sammy. You'll continue to obfuscate, because that's what you do--and, to your credit, you do it quite well; you've got a lot of posters convinced that you're serious about the things you write. Also, fun fact: one of the two players is available to his team right now...which one? 7 game stretch 2015 147 yards. 29 catches.5.06 yards per catch. Dont want to build my offense around that. Hows that for a per target basis?
26CornerBlitz Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 7 game stretch 2015 147 yards. 29 catches. 5.06 yards per catch. Dont want to build my offense around that. Hows that for a per target basis? This is nothing more than intellectually dishonest trolling to pick out a 7 game snippet instead of looking at the respective per game career numbers for both players.
thebandit27 Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 I think the focus on "big play ability" is telling. Do we want long TDs? Sure. We've got guys who run in the 4.3s and 4.4s who can provide that. What we really need though is "consistent play ability" meaning the guy who might not be flashy, but who is performs like he should week in and week out. It's the seasonal luxury sports car vs. daily reliable car debate. I like getting from point A to point B every day, not just 50-75% of them. Nope...the focus is on who is the better receiver. Sammy is easily better...the only reason Matthews has slightly more yards/rec/TDs is that he's played in 9 more games. I can't make it any clearer. 7 game stretch 2015 147 yards. 29 catches. 5.06 yards per catch. Dont want to build my offense around that. Hows that for a per target basis? Same answer as the other thread: So now you're going to boil career per-game production down to a 7-game stretch in which he missed 3 full games and most of 2 others? Please don't ever change!
26CornerBlitz Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 No its not. Its being honest because whats being said is Sammy only missed x amount of games to injury in a poor attempt to downplay his oft injured body. Are you going to sit here and say that he was completely healthy and still only put up 147 yards in 7 games on 29 catches? If so you are being dishonest. Do you want a player that disappears for 44% of the season as far as production in addition to missing 21% of his career games to injury? 38% of his games (11 due to not playong and 7 due to poor production) hes been completely irrelevant to the team. @viccarucci My #Bills camp superlatives: McCoy, Peterman & Yarbrough sparkle http://buffalonews.c...brough-sparkle/ Here are my superlatives from the Buffalo Bills' training camp, which broke Tuesday at St. John Fisher College: It was only 13 practices, most of which were low intensity, so I hesitate to draw much in the way of hard conclusions. But my eyes told me these were the best performers at their respective positions during that stretch: *Wide receiver: Sammy Watkins. Yes, I know he's no longer on the team, but he participated in most of the camp practices before the Bills traded him to the Los Angeles Rams last Friday. And he was easily better than any receiver on the roster through most of those workouts (newcomers Anquan Boldin and Jordan Matthews either didn't practice with him much or at all, so they aren't being factored into this assessment). Having finally recovered from the foot surgery he underwent in January, Watkins ran well and used his athleticism to the fullest to gain separation and make plays. He repeatedly out-jumped defenders for difficult catches of throws that were over his head. The Bills are going to miss the guy who showed up for camp.
Crusher Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 At 61″, 211-pounds, Watkins ran a 4.43 40-yard dash (85th percentile) posting a 109.6 speed score (89th percentile), per playerprofiler.com. At 63″, 212-pounds, Matthews ran a 4.46 40-yard dash (76th percentile) posting a 110.1 speed score (90th percentile), per playerprofiler.com. J-Matt recorded a higher agility score and a much higher catch radius (10.19 vs. 9.97) than Watkins, while the two receivers have nearly identical burst scores. J-Matt also has a 123.3 Nike SPARQ-x score (combination of speed, power, agility, reaction, and quickness) which is in the elite 91st percentile. Watkins SPARQ-x score is 109.3, in the 61st percentile. So to recap, J-Matt has achieved better production in the NFL over the past three seasons, stayed healthier, and is more athletic than Watkins. http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/08/14/mccoy-wrong-watkins-matthews/ And when you watch both play, Watkins clearly looks better, faster, more explosive and the numbers bear it out.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 And when you watch both play, Watkins clearly looks better, faster, more explosive and the numbers bear it out. Of course they do. Matthews is a big bodied possession slot receiver (with a career YPC of 11.9) who has struggled when moved to the outside. Watkins is far more explosive as evidenced by his career YPC of 16.1. There's no position (X, Y, or Z) where he can't excel.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Matthews' career: 346 targets, 225 catches (1.54 targets/catch) Watkins' career: 276 targets, 153 catches (1.8 targets/catch) BTW for long catches (just by looking at the long for each game log and taking those 30+ yards): - Matthews has catches for 44, 40, 33, 30, 43, 78, 41, 30, 32, 33, 54, and 32 yards in his career - Watkins has catches for 43, 42, 35, 84, 30, 38, 37, 48, 47, 53, 48, 63, 39, 53, and 62 yards in his career Of course they do. Matthews is a big bodied possession slot receiver (with a career YPC of 11.9) who has struggled when moved to the outside. Watkins is far more explosive as evidenced by his career YPC of 16.1. There's no position (X, Y, or Z) where he can't excel. I think he would struggle going over the middle. Great on the outside though.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Matthews' career: 346 targets, 225 catches (1.54 targets/catch) Watkins' career: 276 targets, 153 catches (1.8 targets/catch) BTW for long catches (just by looking at the long for each game log and taking those 30+ yards): - Matthews has catches for 44, 40, 33, 30, 43, 78, 41, 30, 32, 33, 54, and 32 yards in his career - Watkins has catches for 43, 42, 35, 84, 30, 38, 37, 48, 47, 53, 48, 63, 39, 53, and 62 yards in his career I think he would struggle going over the middle. Great on the outside though. Based on what?
Magox Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 @viccarucci My #Bills camp superlatives: McCoy, Peterman & Yarbrough sparkle http://buffalonews.c...brough-sparkle/ *Wide receiver: Sammy Watkins. Yes, I know he's no longer on the team, but he participated in most of the camp practices before the Bills traded him to the Los Angeles Rams last Friday. And he was easily better than any receiver on the roster through most of those workouts (newcomers Anquan Boldin and Jordan Matthews either didn't practice with him much or at all, so they aren't being factored into this assessment). Having finally recovered from the foot surgery he underwent in January, Watkins ran well and used his athleticism to the fullest to gain separation and make plays. He repeatedly out-jumped defenders for difficult catches of throws that were over his head. The Bills are going to miss the guy who showed up for camp. Interesting take from Vic: Quarterback: Nathan Peterman. First, it should be noted that none of the three players here was exceptional by any stretch. Each had his highly impressive moments, but each also had his share of ugly plays. Not once did I find myself saying, "Wow! This guy is special." I'm going with the rookie, though, because he was more consistent in delivering good and sometimes even great throws. Granted, Peterman spent most of camp doing taking third-team reps against bottom-of-the-roster defenders, but he looked more mechanically sound than Tyrod Taylor or T.J. Yates. His promotion to the No. 2 spot was a no-brainer, especially with Yates' mostly mediocre to poor showings. Let's see what Peterman does from here.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Based on what? You're not going to like this... but injury history. Plus, his game is more about finesse than contact.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 You're not going to like this... but injury history. Plus, his game is more about finesse than contact. Pure conjecture with you trying to project future injury. News Flash: You can't. His game is a combination of all of his attributes including the ability to be physical off the LoS as evidenced by the GIF I posted earlier of him abusing Revis.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 16, 2017 Posted August 16, 2017 Pure conjecture with you trying to project future injury. News Flash: You can't. His game is a combination of all of his attributes including the ability to be physical off the LoS as evidenced by the GIF I posted earlier of him abusing Revis. So me thinking that an injury prone WR might not be well-suited for going over the middle and taking hits, and the 7-game streak of poor performance pointed out earlier in the thread is cherry-picking... but a GIF of Watkins catching an out on a guy who is as of right now unemployed? Proof he's physical. OK. Sure. Does Watkins really strike you as a WR who relies on the physicality of his game?
Recommended Posts