Kelly the Dog Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Just about any way you look at it, he reaches 5 million per year. On the Vikings article on TBD, it says his first year contract is 1.5 mil. There is no way year two is less, so the likely breakdowns are 1.5, 2.5 and 3.0, or even 1.5, 2.0, 3.5 Still, if he gets hurt or gets cut after one year, he counts as 7.5 mil for one season. If he gets cut or hurt after two years, it's 5 mil (or at low end 4.75) per season. If he plays for the full three years, it's 4.33 mil per season not counting any of the incentives, and they are likely playing time incentives, not Super Bowls or Pro Bowls, of which he has none. That puts him at 4.3-5.0 mil in the third year, too. That's too much. I would have liked to keep him but not for five million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Just about any way you look at it, he reaches 5 million per year. On the Vikings article on TBD, it says his first year contract is 1.5 mil. There is no way year two is less, so the likely breakdowns are 1.5, 2.5 and 3.0, or even 1.5, 2.0, 3.5 Still, if he gets hurt or gets cut after one year, he counts as 7.5 mil for one season. If he gets cut or hurt after two years, it's 5 mil (or at low end 4.75) per season. If he plays for the full three years, it's 4.33 mil per season not counting any of the incentives, and they are likely playing time incentives, not Super Bowls or Pro Bowls, of which he has none. That puts him at 4.3-5.0 mil in the third year, too. That's too much. I would have liked to keep him but not for five million. 260219[/snapback] Maybe if the Bills were 20 million under the cap like the Vikings, signing PW would have been a good thing. With the Bills somewhere aroung 6-8+ million under, it's just not doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Just about any way you look at it, he reaches 5 million per year. On the Vikings article on TBD, it says his first year contract is 1.5 mil. There is no way year two is less, so the likely breakdowns are 1.5, 2.5 and 3.0, or even 1.5, 2.0, 3.5 Still, if he gets hurt or gets cut after one year, he counts as 7.5 mil for one season. If he gets cut or hurt after two years, it's 5 mil (or at low end 4.75) per season. If he plays for the full three years, it's 4.33 mil per season not counting any of the incentives, and they are likely playing time incentives, not Super Bowls or Pro Bowls, of which he has none. That puts him at 4.3-5.0 mil in the third year, too. That's too much. I would have liked to keep him but not for five million. 260219[/snapback] it's called "market value".........funny how other teams can pay that around the league and go the playoffs, but around here "market value" is looked at as a negative and any GM who coughs up coin is a fool........yet, we sit on the outside looking in......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 3, 2005 Author Share Posted March 3, 2005 it's called "market value".........funny how other teams can pay that around the league and go the playoffs, but around here "market value" is looked at as a negative and any GM who coughs up coin is a fool........yet, we sit on the outside looking in......... 260228[/snapback] Market Value is what any of the other 32 teams are willing to pay for a guy. What your response, the Bills should be willing to pay as much as any other team for any player. Pat Williams is a very, very good player. I wanted him but I don't think he is worth 5 mil to our team. Antoine had a market value of 36 mil, is he worth it to you? Drew Bledsoe had a "Market Value" of 100 million to the Pats a few years ago, is that what he was worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuyInMalta Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 it's called "market value".........funny how other teams can pay that around the league and go the playoffs, but around here "market value" is looked at as a negative and any GM who coughs up coin is a fool........yet, we sit on the outside looking in......... 260228[/snapback] Salary cap! The Vikings were 20 million dollars under and have lots of needs on that team, so they can splurge on FAs all offseason long. If we re-signed Pat Williams, do you know what that would have done to our chances at fixing the O-Line? You have to be smart when it comes to FAs...I know you want the Bills to land every high-profile FA in the market, but a team cannot mess with the salary cap to do it. Look at the Niners. Screwed with the cap for most of the late 90s, and now are the most piss-poor team in the NFL. If you'd like, we can screw with the cap this year, get busted by the NFL, lose all of our star players, go 2-14 and then have oodles of cap money left over to rebuild in 3-4 years when they catch us! It'll be great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 it's called "market value".........funny how other teams can pay that around the league and go the playoffs, but around here "market value" is looked at as a negative and any GM who coughs up coin is a fool........yet, we sit on the outside looking in......... 260228[/snapback] If TD is cheap, what ya call the Vikings. What if you had the most explosive player in the league who wants out cause your $30M under the cap and know your D sucks and still didn't sign anyone. D, i generally agree with ya bro, but this TD is cheap thing I just do not see. You are the one who is clamoring for the playmaker to get done, how does TD do that and still get Pat and JJ done. Choices need to be made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 how about ryan diem boys? indy has a tighter salary cap then us, and they still managed to sign their good, young OT.........is bill polian some kind of fool for paying "market value"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 it's called "market value".........funny how other teams can pay that around the league and go the playoffs, but around here "market value" is looked at as a negative and any GM who coughs up coin is a fool........yet, we sit on the outside looking in......... 260228[/snapback] You're right! Tom Donahoe sucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 what about mike wahle? the panthers have less room then us under the cap yet make it a priority to upgrade their OL.......are they foolish as well for paying "market value"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rastabillz Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Why pay 5 million for a 33 year DT when his repalcement is sitting on the bench? We need to sign OL help, especially with a "rookie" QB starting next year and the loss of JJ. Phat Pat will be missed but he is not irreplaceable, especially at $5 mil/year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 3, 2005 Author Share Posted March 3, 2005 what about mike wahle? the panthers have less room then us under the cap yet make it a priority to upgrade their OL.......are they foolish as well for paying "market value"? 260253[/snapback] He signed Takeo Spikes for Market Value and he is our best player. He signed Sam Adams for less and he is one of our best players and went to the pro bowl. He signed Lawyer Milloy for Market Value. He signed Chris Villarial for Market Value. He signed Troy Vincent for Market Value. He signed Aaron Schobel for Market Value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 what about mike wahle? the panthers have less room then us under the cap yet make it a priority to upgrade their OL.......are they foolish as well for paying "market value"? 260253[/snapback] Well, did the Panthers pay market for Mushin? No , they made a choice where they wanted the money to go, and that was back towards the line. Has it entered into your thought process that maybe Anderson and Edwards can play? Or are you 100% positive the D just gets devasted because PW left. Did the colts pay market for Washington last year? Oh thats right, their D sucked at NE again when it counted, and he was a stud linebacker for GW in DC. Now, I guess they will not pay market for everyone, as no can for every postion and have any hope of maintaining long term success. Did the Patriots pay market for Milloy, Woody, Andruzzi, etc? Did the eagles pay market for Douglas Trotter etc. Decisions are need to made, and I got a feeling the boys at one Bills see a little more of the backups than we do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark VI Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 People seem to forget that Pat Williams was part of a 3,4 man rotation and was on the field for about 50 % of the Defensive snaps. The Bills were NOT going to pay their 2nd best DT rotation guy that kind of $$. He was offered close to what he signed with Minny before last season, with a 4 Mil signing bonus and turned it down. With his # of plays per game increasing in Minny, I expect to see his production suffer later in the football season. He chased the $$ and TD didn't bite. Ron Edwards, Tim Anderson, say hello to opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 He signed Takeo Spikes for Market Value and he is our best player. He signed Sam Adams for less and he is one of our best players and went to the pro bowl. He signed Lawyer Milloy for Market Value. He signed Chris Villarial for Market Value. He signed Troy Vincent for Market Value. He signed Aaron Schobel for Market Value. 260270[/snapback] Look, it's the second day of FA. This is not a time for logic. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 By the way PW would not be counting 5+ million against the cap. His figure this year would be in the low 3M range. The Bills could have easily made a comparable deal. A 5.5M signing bonus would have very likely kept him here. Amortize that over 3 years and it is 1.8M/year and amortize it over 4 and it is 1.375/yr. Add salaries of 1-2M/year and for the next two years cap figures of around 3M/year for an anchor of your defense. Instead we hope a guy who practiced well but wasn't good enough to suit up for 75% of games will take his place. That's a stretch. Realistically you can count on Pat to have a couple of more productive seasons. His contract that he signed would hardly of killed the Bills. Cut him after two years and he has a dead cap figure of 2M. Not a lot for a great DT. Hopefully Ron Edwards will step up. If either Edwards or Adams goes down we will have a horrible run defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 By the way PW would not be counting 5+ million against the cap. His figure this year would be in the low 3M range. The Bills could have easily made a comparable deal. A 5.5M signing bonus would have very likely kept him here. Amortize that over 3 years and it is 1.8M/year and amortize it over 4 and it is 1.375/yr. Add salaries of 1-2M/year and for the next two years cap figures of around 3M/year for an anchor of your defense. Instead we hope a guy who practiced well but wasn't good enough to suit up for 75% of games will take his place. That's a stretch. Realistically you can count on Pat to have a couple of more productive seasons. His contract that he signed would hardly of killed the Bills. Cut him after two years and he has a dead cap figure of 2M. Not a lot for a great DT. Hopefully Ron Edwards will step up. If either Edwards or Adams goes down we will have a horrible run defense. 260554[/snapback] here here, great post......... we went with the "cheap" option.......i think most playoff caliber teams with the cap room we had would have re-signed pat, or at least made an effort to........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 By the way PW would not be counting 5+ million against the cap. His figure this year would be in the low 3M range. The Bills could have easily made a comparable deal. A 5.5M signing bonus would have very likely kept him here. Amortize that over 3 years and it is 1.8M/year and amortize it over 4 and it is 1.375/yr. Add salaries of 1-2M/year and for the next two years cap figures of around 3M/year for an anchor of your defense. Instead we hope a guy who practiced well but wasn't good enough to suit up for 75% of games will take his place. That's a stretch. Realistically you can count on Pat to have a couple of more productive seasons. His contract that he signed would hardly of killed the Bills. Cut him after two years and he has a dead cap figure of 2M. Not a lot for a great DT. Hopefully Ron Edwards will step up. If either Edwards or Adams goes down we will have a horrible run defense. 260554[/snapback] And promptly, we'd be putting ourselves back in cap hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 By the way PW would not be counting 5+ million against the cap. His figure this year would be in the low 3M range. The Bills could have easily made a comparable deal. A 5.5M signing bonus would have very likely kept him here. Amortize that over 3 years and it is 1.8M/year and amortize it over 4 and it is 1.375/yr. Add salaries of 1-2M/year and for the next two years cap figures of around 3M/year for an anchor of your defense. Instead we hope a guy who practiced well but wasn't good enough to suit up for 75% of games will take his place. That's a stretch. Realistically you can count on Pat to have a couple of more productive seasons. His contract that he signed would hardly of killed the Bills. Cut him after two years and he has a dead cap figure of 2M. Not a lot for a great DT. Hopefully Ron Edwards will step up. If either Edwards or Adams goes down we will have a horrible run defense. 260554[/snapback] Ray, i tend to agree with you . But that is why I think this move smells of more than just TD not wanting to spend the money. I really think Grey would have some impact here, and my gut tells me he thinks we will get more out of who ever plays that position than we would have with Pat. Delicate science to know when a guy is just about at his peak and is about top start a downward spiral in his play, but your figures tell me this is as much a "football" decision as it is a "cap" decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 And promptly, we'd be putting ourselves back in cap hell. 260585[/snapback] cap hell by paying a good DT "market value"?? by taking on a cap charge of 3M in '05, 3M in '06, and 2M in '07?? that is what good teams pay good players in the NFL.......... if ron edwards plays half as good as many on this board expect, how much do you think he'll command as a UFA next year?? i can't wait to hear about how over-rated he is and how we can't afford to keep him next year........same old story around here........it's not TD's fault, he has to watch the cap.......he better start working on extension for edwards NOW if that is his man, cause we won't be able to keep him either if he gets to free agency.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 cap hell by paying a good DT "market value"?? by taking on a cap charge of 3M in '05, 3M in '06, and 2M in '07?? that is what good teams pay good players in the NFL.......... if ron edwards plays half as good as many on this board expect, how much do you think he'll command as a UFA next year?? i can't wait to hear about how over-rated he is and how we can't afford to keep him next year........same old story around here........it's not TD's fault, he has to watch the cap.......he better start working on extension for edwards NOW if that is his man, cause we won't be able to keep him either if he gets to free agency.......... 260597[/snapback] And he's a lot younger than Fat pat is as well. So he'd be worth resigning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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