The Tyrod Taylor Question

[row_33]

^{You can already see that the table is being set for Taylor to get the ball out in 2-3 seconds.}

 

^{Our WR's should be able to jam the LOS and create space over the middle, giving our O a more rhythm feel and making us more of a West Coast vibe.}

 

^{I'm digging it.............just as long as Taylor doesn't get "antsy" in the pocket and try to run every down.}

 

any hope of getting to the line with 18 seconds on the shotclock and Tyrod reading the D and barking out Omaha and real adjustments, like real QBs do?

Edited August 17, 2017 by row_33

[grb]

 

any hope of getting to the line with 18 seconds on the shotclock and Tyrod reading the D and barking out Omaha and real adjustments, like real QBs do?

 

A few posts back, Bangarang asked why I posted comparisons of numbers from Taylor and other quarterbacks like Ryan or Rodgers. Well, most obviously I was responding to specific points other people had made, but there's another answer too : Since Taylor isn't a "real quarterback", I thought it would be interesting to compare him to "real quarterbacks" - to see how he stacks-up.

 

Pretty well, actually - which is kind of amazing. You'd think someone who isn't a "real quarterback" wouldn't match up so well against other quarterbacks who are ..... "real"

Edited August 17, 2017 by grb

[transplantbillsfan]

I'm just struggling with any attempt to indicate TT is close to Rodgers in any facet

Yeah... cause that's what I'm saying.

 

Oy

It's not just Bills fans coveting a pocket passer, it's Beane as well.

Is that an attempt to validate the "anti Tyrod position"? Or is it just a statement of fact?

 

I agree if it's a statement of fact.

 

As far as the validating anything, Beane hasn't really proven anything yet as far as evaluating talent as a GM.

[PolishDave]

It's not just Bills fans coveting a pocket passer, it's Beane as well.

 

If and when Beane finds a pocket passer that is so good at it that it outweighs the other big play, chain moving qualities that Tyrod possesses, I will be happy to see Tyrod replaced by that guy. I think most fans would. It would mean the Bills have a truly outstanding "elite" passer. And then if they can get enough other pieces in place, the Bills would be a perennial playoff team.

 

If the Bills had improved the offensive line this year, retained their number one receiver (Sammy) and brought in Zay and Boldin, I think this existing offense could have steam-rolled opponents - and easily been a top 10 offense (probably much higher) even with the existing QB. Hoping they are going to be "good enough" anyway this year - but I doubt it.

[Buff808]

Here we go. I love the upside, mobile, strong arm, accurate deep ball and short. Middle range hesitant. Receivers not getting much separation big problem, thus a lot of side line routes. I don't like clay, he dropped a lot of easy catches. And is always hurt, plus 9 million contract, would be next to trade. Logan and OLeary are capable and Barnage or roster cuts are coming a TE can be found there. Sammy was a loss he did look good in last week game and was a comfort for Tyrod. Jones and Bolden can easily fill that spot both reliable receivers. Last three pre season games familiarity will grow with them and I expect thing to work out. The offensive line has to improve on pass protection especially up the middle, Tyrods getting maybe two seconds and out before its collapsing. Play action and boot legs are excellent plays for Tyrod, very effective passing and running. This offense will be very effective with Taylor. The last point is he may be a little tentative in hi passing but here is your choice 65% completion 7 int. Or. 58%. 16 int. I'll take the less turnover for one reason. I don't know when those turn overs are coming.

[PolishDave]

OK, so the takeaway here is that we should just care about stats and don't worry about wins.

 

You're the only one who said that. Nobody else did. I don't agree with you. I think wins absolutely matter.

[billsfan60]

 

You're the only one who said that. Nobody else did. I don't agree with you. I think wins absolutely matter.

Actually you sorta need to read the whole thing. Stats don't mean jack when the bullets start flying. I guess if the argument is that taylor's performance is in no way partially responsible for the lack of success then let's all go blindly forward comfortable with mediocrity. The only thing that counts is wins, and taylor doesn't "outshine" anybody. (with all due respect)

[PolishDave]

Actually you sorta need to read the whole thing. Stats don't mean jack when the bullets start flying. I guess if the argument is that taylor's performance is in no way partially responsible for the lack of success then let's all go blindly forward comfortable with mediocrity. The only thing that counts is wins, and taylor doesn't "outshine" anybody. (with all due respect)

 

Winning is a team stat dude - accounts for 22 starters plus special teams - plus coaching and staff among other things. There are other stats to measure individual players by.

 

QB's certainly influence wins and losses more than any other player - but they are still only a percentage of the reasons why a team wins or loses any given Sunday.

 

If QB was directly responsible, then teams like New Orleans and the Chargers would be in the Superbowl regularly. Team stats are for teams. Player stats are for players.

[transplantbillsfan]

Actually you sorta need to read the whole thing. Stats don't mean jack when the bullets start flying. I guess if the argument is that taylor's performance is in no way partially responsible for the lack of success then let's all go blindly forward comfortable with mediocrity. The only thing that counts is wins, and taylor doesn't "outshine" anybody. (with all due respect)

 

Stats don't mean jack when the bullets start flying?

 

What the hell does that mean?

 

Are you implying that bullets are only flying at certain times during a game?

 

Because teams don't try to knock a QBs head off at all times during a game?

 

 

Those stats posted were when "the bullets were flying." Wins are a team stat, not a QB stat. If they were a QB stat then Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers would have been cut already.

[Crusher]

 

A few posts back, Bangarang asked why I posted comparisons of numbers from Taylor and other quarterbacks like Ryan or Rodgers. Well, most obviously I was responding to specific points other people had made, but there's another answer too : Since Taylor isn't a "real quarterback", I thought it would be interesting to compare him to "real quarterbacks" - to see how he stacks-up.

 

Pretty well, actually - which is kind of amazing. You'd think someone who isn't a "real quarterback" wouldn't match up so well against other quarterbacks who are ..... "real"

Their passing attacks and offenses are real...Taylor's was elementary in comparison.

 

So while the numbers "match up"...the things they are being asked to do and the throws they are asked to make are much more advanced and difficult...therefor, any comparison based on numbers is not apples to apples.

 

But, yes...continue telling people how TT measures up and puts up similar numbers while people who watch clearly see the difference.

[Mat68]

Are guys like Rodgers, Drew Brees, and Matt Ryan born with these abilities? They NEVER had to learn them? Even in high school or peewee football?

 

How exactly do you know they CAN'T be learned or improved on?

 

If it's a hunch, that's cool. But you type it like it's a fact. Which is it?

Ryan was the only top 5 pick. Qb is the hardest position to predict. Circumstances, system and enviornment all play into the players success.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Mat68

[billsfan60]

 

Winning is a team stat dude - accounts for 22 starters plus special teams - plus coaching and staff among other things. There are other stats to measure individual players by.

 

QB's certainly influence wins and losses more than any other player - but they are still only a percentage of the reasons why a team wins or loses any given Sunday.

 

If QB was directly responsible, then teams like New Orleans and the Chargers would be in the Superbowl regularly. Team stats are for teams. Player stats are for players.

OK let's try this another way. The only statistic I care about, as a fan, is wins and losses. Statistics can be made to prove any point you want depending on the parameters you choose to attach to them. A 9-7 season doesn't make us winners unless we're headed to the post season. Objectively I know Tyrod Taylor is a gifted athlete. Subjectively, purely as an observer, he didn't do enough to help make the Bills successful. Don't know if the rook has what we need but subjectively last week gave me hope. and objectively I know you don't throw out what you have without a plan for replacement in hand. The one thing that seems certain at this point is taylor isn't the answer.

 

Stats don't mean jack when the bullets start flying?

 

What the hell does that mean?

 

Are you implying that bullets are only flying at certain times during a game?

 

Because teams don't try to knock a QBs head off at all times during a game?

 

 

Those stats posted were when "the bullets were flying." Wins are a team stat, not a QB stat. If they were a QB stat then Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers would have been cut already.

 

Get the feeling ya'll think I'm laying all the blame for the team's lack of success at taylor's feet. Not so, but conversely does this mean, given another year of the same performance from taylor you are willing to see The Bills use our draft picks to build around him, because he is what he is.

[Crusher]

 

A few posts back, Bangarang asked why I posted comparisons of numbers from Taylor and other quarterbacks like Ryan or Rodgers. Well, most obviously I was responding to specific points other people had made, but there's another answer too : Since Taylor isn't a "real quarterback", I thought it would be interesting to compare him to "real quarterbacks" - to see how he stacks-up.

 

Pretty well, actually - which is kind of amazing. You'd think someone who isn't a "real quarterback" wouldn't match up so well against other quarterbacks who are ..... "real"

Their passing attacks and offenses are real...Taylor's was elementary in comparison.

 

So while the numbers "match up"...the things they are being asked to do and the throws they are asked to make are much more advanced and difficult...therefor, any comparison based on numbers is not apples to apples.

 

But, yes...continue telling people how TT measures up and puts up similar numbers while people who watch clearly see the difference.

[grb]

.......while people who watch clearly see the difference.

 

Well, you clearly "see the difference", regardless of completion percentage, yards per attempt, touchdown percentage, interception percentage, and quarterback rating.

 

You "see the difference" despite the success of the Bills offense in scoring and it's improvement in red zone performance and third down conversion

 

I suspect you'll continue to "see the difference" even if Taylor has an excellent season - even if the Bills get into the playoffs.

 

Hell, if Tyrod was to suddenly walk on water, I bet you'd still "see the difference". That other guy did it so much better........

Edited August 17, 2017 by grb

[reddogblitz]

Well, you clearly "see the difference", regardless of completion percentage, yards per attempt, touchdown percentage, interception percentage, and quarterback rating.

 

You "see the difference" despite the success of the Bills offense in scoring and it's improvement in red zone performance and third down conversion

 

I suspect you'll continue to "see the difference" even if Taylor has an excellent season - even if the Bills get into the playoffs.

 

Hell, if Tyrod was to suddenly walk on water, I bet you'd still "see the difference". That other guy did it so much better........

I'm a Hotrod guy, but I don't "see the difference" in his ability to perform in cunch time. That's what separates the men from the boys. He MUST do better this year. I'm willing to give him another chance.

 

Hotrod, don't let me down!

 

Someone mentioned QBs percentage of if the team wins or not. I put it at at least 40%. Everybody has to do thier job, but QB touches the football on every play and had total control of where it goes.

 

Goodwin was open in the EZ in the last Fish game the play before the missed FG for instance. He hits him we win. Goodwin and everyone else did their job. Hotrod needs to do his in situations like that.

Edited August 17, 2017 by reddogblitz

[PolishDave]

OK let's try this another way. The only statistic I care about, as a fan, is wins and losses. Statistics can be made to prove any point you want depending on the parameters you choose to attach to them. A 9-7 season doesn't make us winners unless we're headed to the post season. Objectively I know Tyrod Taylor is a gifted athlete. Subjectively, purely as an observer, he didn't do enough to help make the Bills successful. Don't know if the rook has what we need but subjectively last week gave me hope. and objectively I know you don't throw out what you have without a plan for replacement in hand. The one thing that seems certain at this point is taylor isn't the answer.

 

Get the feeling ya'll think I'm laying all the blame for the team's lack of success at taylor's feet. Not so, but conversely does this mean, given another year of the same performance from taylor you are willing to see The Bills use our draft picks to build around him, because he is what he is.

I think we are pretty much in agreement with one exception - The part where you are certain that Taylor isn't the answer. I'm not certain he is the answer. I don't think anybody is certain he is the answer except for Tyrod himself. I am just not 100% certain he is not the answer.

 

He is most likely not the answer if you want to run an offense that requires a pure pocket passer. (Example: An offense where the quarterback never runs the ball and only throws from the pocket usually after making a number of situational decisions (progressions) after the snap)

 

He absolutely could be the answer if you design an offense around his strengths doing things like this:

* Designed run plays for the QB - draws and run options

* Options where the QB can run or pass

* Roll outs that allow the QB to use his evasiveness to extend the amount of time he can hold the ball allowing defenses to get stretched farther + create big plays/homeruns

* Pocket passing plays with limited post snap reads - then run option

* Play action passing on early downs or otherwise typical running situations

* Plenty of deep passing routes designed to get his #1 receiver in one on one coverage

 

Do I expect him to become the Bills franchise QB? Nope. I predict they will replace him within 2 years (could even be this season) with someone they draft. Only way they don't is if Tyrod performs like a top 5-ish Qb in the NFL this year. And I am not predicting that.

 

Their passing attacks and offenses are real...Taylor's was elementary in comparison.

 

So while the numbers "match up"...the things they are being asked to do and the throws they are asked to make are much more advanced and difficult...therefor, any comparison based on numbers is not apples to apples.

 

But, yes...continue telling people how TT measures up and puts up similar numbers while people who watch clearly see the difference.

 

Just so you know - It isn't/wasn't up to Taylor to design the offense and determine how elementary the scheme is. It is up to the coaches.

 

Since being in Buffalo, Tyrod has ONLY had coaches who believe in running the football while limiting the passing. What part about that is hard to grasp?

 

You, nor me, nor anyone else has ever seen Tyrod Taylor be asked to execute a pass centric offense since he has been a starter in the NFL. That isn't his fault. Those were going to be the same offensive schemes regardless of who the QB was. The Bills may have ran more options with Taylor than they would with a QB who can't run. But the running game being the primary focus of the offense was always going to be the case regardless of who Roman/Lynn had as QB.

 

Dennison is likely to opt for more balance in the passing vs run situation - but we won't know that for sure until the season starts. They are not pass centric like New Orleans, Green Bay or Baltimore in 2016. Dennison's offenses still rely heavily on the running game.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

It's not just Bills fans coveting a pocket passer, it's Beane as well.

And I'm sure the Ginger Hammer

Yeah... cause that's what I'm saying.

 

Oy

 

Is that an attempt to validate the "anti Tyrod position"? Or is it just a statement of fact?

 

I agree if it's a statement of fact.

 

As far as the validating anything, Beane hasn't really proven anything yet as far as evaluating talent as a GM.

Anti Taylor rhetoric?

 

How many times do I need to remind you to ignore those that say TT sucks

 

 

Do not I repeat do not call those of us who say TT needs to improve his passing game as being Anti Taylor.

 

He is what we know he is until he proves he can keep up with the big dogs.

 

If you can't keep up with the big dogs you ain't going anywhere.

[billsfan60]

I think we are pretty much in agreement with one exception - The part where you are certain that Taylor isn't the answer. I'm not certain he is the answer. I don't think anybody is certain he is the answer except for Tyrod himself. I am just not 100% certain he is not the answer.

 

He is most likely not the answer if you want to run an offense that requires a pure pocket passer. (Example: An offense where the quarterback never runs the ball and only throws from the pocket usually after making a number of situational decisions (progressions) after the snap)

 

He absolutely could be the answer if you design an offense around his strengths doing things like this:

* Designed run plays for the QB - draws and run options

* Options where the QB can run or pass

* Roll outs that allow the QB to use his evasiveness to extend the amount of time he can hold the ball allowing defenses to get stretched farther + create big plays/homeruns

* Pocket passing plays with limited post snap reads - then run option

* Play action passing on early downs or otherwise typical running situations

* Plenty of deep passing routes designed to get his #1 receiver in one on one coverage

 

Do I expect him to become the Bills franchise QB? Nope. I predict they will replace him within 2 years (could even be this season) with someone they draft. Only way they don't is if Tyrod performs like a top 5-ish Qb in the NFL this year. And I am not predicting that.

 

Agreed, and tonight should start to shed more light on where he's at.

 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

any hope of getting to the line with 18 seconds on the shotclock and Tyrod reading the D and barking out Omaha and real adjustments, like real QBs do?

That never has happened and never will happen.

[John from Riverside]

Their passing attacks and offenses are real...Taylor's was elementary in comparison.

 

So while the numbers "match up"...the things they are being asked to do and the throws they are asked to make are much more advanced and difficult...therefor, any comparison based on numbers is not apples to apples.

 

But, yes...continue telling people how TT measures up and puts up similar numbers while people who watch clearly see the difference.

I see so now its Crusher's "eye test"

 

As if you had any clue of what was actually going on the field...whether it be the bills or any other team