Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 Show me 25 passing TD's and 5 rushing TDs and I'll be happy. Really. I don't GAF how many passing TDs we have. I want us to win games. Show me an 11-5 record and I'll be happy. Look, folks, there is a select group of QB in the league who can carry the team with their arm. That group would include Brees, Rogers, Brady; Matt Ryan, Rivers and Roethlisberger in a good year. Possibly Carr and Newton may join that group. There are other QB who are lighting up the scoreboard with lots of TDs but it doesn't mean s*** because they're throwing for their lives with their team behind and it doesn't result in WINNING. Then there is a group of QB who are "good enough for the team to win if the D is good and the right pieces around them". Their teams have known playoffs and even championships with them on the roster. That group would include Russ Wilson, Andy Dalton; Joe Flacco and Alex Smith in a good year. Smith threw 15 TDs last year, Dalton 18, Flacco 20, Wilson 21. Possibly Bortles, Prescott, Bradford, and Tannehill may be in this group. This latter is the group Taylor may be in. Is he ever going to be Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, No. No he is not. With a stout D and the right pieces around him, could the Bills have success with him on the roster? The fact that Alex Smith, Andy Dalton, and Russ Wilson have seen success would argue yes, to my mind. But please quit pining after fantastic passing stats and number of TDs scored by passing. Andrew Luck passed for 31 TD and >4200 yds last year and his team finished 8-7. Drew Brees passed for 37 TD and 5200 yds last year and his team finished 7-9. Passing yards and passing TDs are just not a strong correlation to winning.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) It's like when people try to pretend that the 2015 opener doesn't count for him. They ran a trick play on 1st down and he took every other snap. We are all way too familiar with the numbers than to try to manipulate them to support one side of the debate. Let's look at the whole picture and determine if that's good enough. We don't need to try to pretend he's better or worse than he is by picking and choosing what to include. The reality is he's the Bills best QB by 8 miles. He's their most important player and has guided 2 good offenses. They've won more than they've lost when he's played. Tyrod needs to throw with more anticipation, get the ball to Sammy more and hit guys in stride. There is some good and some bad. If he improves in the areas that he's struggled with he will be here. If he doesn't, a 2018 first round QB will be under center next year. The question was originally about his fit in this offense. I personally think that the last offense was a better fit for him. They were too 10 DVOA in both years. His skill set was crucial to that. He was able to freeze defenders and open up opportunities for himself and McCoy. This offense doesn't feel like as good of a fit to me. Quick timing routes are good for guys like Bradford or Alex Smith. Tyrod's ideal offense should be a little more like Ben's. Ben keeps plays alive and punishes people down the field. He too takes a lot of sacks. Those guys are both at their best when a play breaks down. We will certainly throw more. Tyrod has to get to 30 total TDs IMO if he is going to be a consideration for 2018. He's going to have to take a step. It will be seen whether or not this offense is as good fit for TT. I'd just like to point out that there was a day when both Bradford and Alex Smith were tabbed as being unable to throw quick timing routes, hit guys in stride, or throw with anticipation. Bradford in particular threw 6, count them, 6, TD in 7 games combined with 6 INTs his 2nd season, was better but kind of "meh" his 3rd year, and then went out for 1 1/2 years with knees. He looked like a huge career bust. There's a reason the Rams gave up on him. Last year with the Vikes was his best year in the league by far, and the 2nd year in which he really looked solidly and consistently able to do all those things - in his 6th NFL season at the age of 29. Smith, of course, made it onto a list of "top 5 busts of all time" at QB, until his 6th NFL season when he started looking competent in a very specific offense. But it wasn't until he moved to KC and Andy Reid at age 29 that he really started looking like an NFL QB, able to throw with anticipation etc etc. I'm not saying Taylor will prove a similar late bloomer; if it takes him until age 29, he'll be on some other team when he finds success. My point is just I wouldn't be too quick to rule out Dennison's offense as being a decent match-up for Taylor. There is probably a basis for the rumors that Dennison/Kubiak wanted Taylor in Denver after Dennison coached him as QB coach with the Ravens in 2014. Both Denver and the Texans had a very strong running game under Dennison and camoflaged mediocre passing. I guess I'm saying I don't understand all the run game/offense dislike. Edited August 6, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan
Bangarang Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) The fact of the matter is there are poster's in this thread thowing out 17 passing td's last year and leaving out his rushing TDs....not one of you brought it up until I did. Tyrod is not your typical qb....he is more athlete then he is qb at this point (and who knows...maybe that is all he will ever be) But stop being that guy that hides the actual numbers to support his arguement....it makes you look bad That's because the issue is Tyrod as a passer. We already know he's elite at running and using his legs. You have to be able to throw the ball from the pocket, especially when it's late in a game and the defense knows you have to throw. That's what all this Tyrod stuff is about. Edited August 6, 2017 by Bangarang
Kirby Jackson Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 It will be seen whether or not this offense is as good fit for TT. I'd just like to point out that there was a day when both Bradford and Alex Smith were tabbed as being unable to throw quick timing routes, hit guys in stride, or throw with anticipation. Bradford in particular threw 6, count them, 6, TD in 7 games combined with 6 INTs his 2nd season, was better but kind of "meh" his 3rd year, and then went out for 1 1/2 years with knees. He looked like a huge career bust. There's a reason the Rams gave up on him. Last year with the Vikes was his best year in the league by far, and the 2nd year in which he really looked solidly and consistently able to do all those things - in his 6th NFL season at the age of 29. Smith, of course, made it onto a list of "top 5 busts of all time" at QB, until his 6th NFL season when he started looking competent in a very specific offense. But it wasn't until he moved to KC and Andy Reid at age 29 that he really started looking like an NFL QB, able to throw with anticipation etc etc. I'm not saying Taylor will prove a similar late bloomer; if it takes him until age 29, he'll be on some other team when he finds success. My point is just I wouldn't be too quick to rule out Dennison's offense as being a decent match-up for Taylor. There is probably a basis for the rumors that Dennison/Kubiak wanted Taylor in Denver after Dennison coached him as QB coach with the Ravens in 2014. Both Denver and the Texans had a very strong running game under Dennison and camoflaged mediocre passing. I guess I'm saying I don't understand all the run game/offense dislike. Those guys were both considered accurate, efficient QBs coming out. That's why they were both picked 1st overall. It didn't always work out that way but that's who those guys are. They were in bad situations but always had those skills. At camp it felt like the running plays were slow developing. The Bills running game was ELITE. They had a higher ypc than any team in like 20 years. It doesn't necessarily mean that the running game will be bad but I expect them to regress. Will the improved passing game offset the running game regression? I hope so.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 Show me 25 passing TD's and 5 rushing TDs and I'll be happy. Only 6 QBs last year had 30 or more TDs. Brady was the only other one on pace (finished with 28). I did want to stretch it to 35 passing because he can run. 3 had 35 or more.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 .....show me 10 "W's" and a wild card spot accompanied by the WORST stats in league and I WILL be happy....you guys can continue the fight over details.....
John from Riverside Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 That's because the issue is Tyrod as a passer. We already know he's elite at running and using his legs. You have to be able to throw the ball from the pocket, especially when it's late in a game and the defense knows you have to throw. That's what all this Tyrod stuff is about. Bang Im not arguing that.....honestly I agree to an extent Im taking issue with people making a real effort to hide things to support a arguement.....I mean that is some real hate there
BringBackOrton Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 The real question which was worth debating instead of all this "is he average, a bit above average or a bit below average?" is does this offense suit him or not? I think that subject was a worthy debate because he is the only QB we have on the roster we can win games with. The question is whether this offense plays to his strengths or exposes his weaknesses? There was no better system for TT than the system that asked him to throw the least amount possible. This system will be worse for him, IMO.
Bangarang Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 Bang Im not arguing that.....honestly I agree to an extent Im taking issue with people making a real effort to hide things to support a arguement.....I mean that is some real hate there The cherry picking has gone both ways.
BringBackOrton Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) Really. I don't GAF how many passing TDs we have. I want us to win games. Show me an 11-5 record and I'll be happy. Look, folks, there is a select group of QB in the league who can carry the team with their arm. That group would include Brees, Rogers, Brady; Matt Ryan, Rivers and Roethlisberger in a good year. Possibly Carr and Newton may join that group. There are other QB who are lighting up the scoreboard with lots of TDs but it doesn't mean s*** because they're throwing for their lives with their team behind and it doesn't result in WINNING. Then there is a group of QB who are "good enough for the team to win if the D is good and the right pieces around them". Their teams have known playoffs and even championships with them on the roster. That group would include Russ Wilson, Andy Dalton; Joe Flacco and Alex Smith in a good year. Smith threw 15 TDs last year, Dalton 18, Flacco 20, Wilson 21. Possibly Bortles, Prescott, Bradford, and Tannehill may be in this group. This latter is the group Taylor may be in. Is he ever going to be Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, No. No he is not. With a stout D and the right pieces around him, could the Bills have success with him on the roster? The fact that Alex Smith, Andy Dalton, and Russ Wilson have seen success would argue yes, to my mind. But please quit pining after fantastic passing stats and number of TDs scored by passing. Andrew Luck passed for 31 TD and >4200 yds last year and his team finished 8-7. Drew Brees passed for 37 TD and 5200 yds last year and his team finished 7-9. Passing yards and passing TDs are just not a strong correlation to winning. Neither is not passing or not scoring passing TD's. 5/10 top passing teams in 2016 made the playoffs. 2/10 bottom passing teams in 2016 made the playoffs. Edited August 6, 2017 by jmc12290
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) Only 6 QBs last year had 30 or more TDs. Brady was the only other one on pace (finished with 28). 3 had 35 or more. This would mean the Bills have a truly balanced attack. Scoring with the pass and the run. As I said I tries to pick a reasonable number. 8 more passing TDs than last year. That's 1 additional passing TD every 2 games. Edited August 6, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan
Kirby Jackson Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 The cherry picking has gone both ways.Yep, that's why it never ends.
Rocky Landing Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 It's like when people try to pretend that the 2015 opener doesn't count for him. They ran a trick play on 1st down and he took every other snap. We are all way too familiar with the numbers than to try to manipulate them to support one side of the debate. Let's look at the whole picture and determine if that's good enough. We don't need to try to pretend he's better or worse than he is by picking and choosing what to include. The reality is he's the Bills best QB by 8 miles. He's their most important player and has guided 2 good offenses. They've won more than they've lost when he's played. Tyrod needs to throw with more anticipation, get the ball to Sammy more and hit guys in stride. There is some good and some bad. If he improves in the areas that he's struggled with he will be here. If he doesn't, a 2018 first round QB will be under center next year. The question was originally about his fit in this offense. I personally think that the last offense was a better fit for him. They were too 10 DVOA in both years. His skill set was crucial to that. He was able to freeze defenders and open up opportunities for himself and McCoy. This offense doesn't feel like as good of a fit to me. Quick timing routes are good for guys like Bradford or Alex Smith. Tyrod's ideal offense should be a little more like Ben's. Ben keeps plays alive and punishes people down the field. He too takes a lot of sacks. Those guys are both at their best when a play breaks down. I know you're not exactly saying this, but it's almost like you're saying that TT needs time for the play to break down. I want to know why you think that quick timing routes are going to negate some of the benefits of TT's athleticism (I think that's what you're saying?) Quick timing routes are good for guys like Bradford and Smith because they are not mobile QBs. I feel like quick timing routes will help our O-line which has struggled in pass protection. Would that not also help TT, who has also struggled to read the field, and see open receivers?? The cherry picking has gone both ways. Is it a requirement on this board to have "an agenda?"
Kirby Jackson Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 I know you're not exactly saying this, but it's almost like you're saying that TT needs time for the play to break down. I want to know why you think that quick timing routes are going to negate some of the benefits of TT's athleticism (I think that's what you're saying?) Quick timing routes are good for guys like Bradford and Smith because they are not mobile QBs. I feel like quick timing routes will help our O-line which has struggled in pass protection. Would that not also help TT, who has also struggled to read the field, and see open receivers?? Is it a requirement on this board to have "an agenda?" For me it's about pinpoint accuracy. Tyrod hasn't shown to be a guy that consistently hits guys in stride for YAC. He has proven to be a playmaker. When the jailbreak happens he makes plays with his arm and legs. There are some other good QBs that are good in that situation.
BringBackOrton Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 I know you're not exactly saying this, but it's almost like you're saying that TT needs time for the play to break down. I want to know why you think that quick timing routes are going to negate some of the benefits of TT's athleticism (I think that's what you're saying?) Quick timing routes are good for guys like Bradford and Smith because they are not mobile QBs. I feel like quick timing routes will help our O-line which has struggled in pass protection. Would that not also help TT, who has also struggled to read the field, and see open receivers?? Is it a requirement on this board to have "an agenda?" Bradford and Smith have an easier time seeing over their line for a quick slant-like pattern.
Rocky Landing Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 For me it's about pinpoint accuracy. Tyrod hasn't shown to be a guy that consistently hits guys in stride for YAC. He has proven to be a playmaker. When the jailbreak happens he makes plays with his arm and legs. There are some other good QBs that are good in that situation. We've certainly seen him hit Sammy in stride- someone whose hands are reliable enough to reach in stride. I could also see Zay being this type of receiver, and maybe Streater as well? Be that as it may, not even Rex designed plays to break down! (or did he?) Bradford and Smith have an easier time seeing over their line for a quick slant-like pattern. There are plenty of quick timing routes that don't rely on the middle of the field. But, we have seen times that TT has hit the middle of the field to Clay on designed plays. If only Holmes, or Lewis had more reliable hands!
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) For me it's about pinpoint accuracy. Tyrod hasn't shown to be a guy that consistently hits guys in stride for YAC. He has proven to be a playmaker. When the jailbreak happens he makes plays with his arm and legs. There are some other good QBs that are good in that situation. ...onus is on Dennison to design an offense to exploit his strengths and mask shortcomings...jailbreaking with his legs will eventually get him killed..if we cannot call upon the passing game consistently when needed as a continual, viable threat, we're screwed.....DC's league wide figured out RG II 3/4 and Casper-Nick quickly...Russell learned how to adjust and became far more selective when utilizing his wheels despite OL woes.....had to or career preservation becomes a serious doubt.....summarily, this is the IT year for TT in Buffalo IMO...... Edited August 6, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy
BringBackOrton Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 We've certainly seen him hit Sammy in stride- someone whose hands are reliable enough to reach in stride. I could also see Zay being this type of receiver, and maybe Streater as well? Be that as it may, not even Rex designed plays to break down! (or did he?) There are plenty of quick timing routes that don't rely on the middle of the field. But, we have seen times that TT has hit the middle of the field to Clay on designed plays. If only Holmes, or Lewis had more reliable hands! Very inconsistently. You have to assume TT wasn't getting more designed plays in the middle of the field because he hadn't shown the ability to effectively execute them. IMO.
John from Riverside Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 There was no better system for TT than the system that asked him to throw the least amount possible. This system will be worse for him, IMO. It might? We will have to see
Rocky Landing Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 Very inconsistently. You have to assume TT wasn't getting more designed plays in the middle of the field because he hadn't shown the ability to effectively execute them. IMO. I wouldn't make that assumption under Rex, but at this point I am as far from a Rex fan as you're going to find. But, perhaps, this may be the difference between the Rex offense, and the McD offense-- less of an option offense? In which case, I agree with you and Kirby that this offense may not be a better fit for the Taylor we have seen, unless he can adapt to it. But, if Dennison designs an offense that uses quick routes, including slants to the middle, that also allows for TT's mobility... then this could be a fun season.
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