The Tyrod Taylor Question

[HappyDays]

 

I disagree.

 

If we are specifically talking about passing the ball, which I think we are in the last page, Tyrod's passer QBR passing is 22nd last year and 18th the year before. He's top 10 in total QBR which includes running. Derek Carr was 16th in total QBR simply because he doesn't scramble/run....he's 9th in pass. Do you think Tyrod was overall a better QB than Derek Carr last year?

 

And yes, it still can be "cheated" if you make too many safe throws which is what Anthony Lynn stated last year...

If there is a guy wide open on a post route that could go for 20+ but Taylor doesn't see him and runs for 8 yards....that's not looked at as a negative on QBR. Yes 8 yards is good but a 20+ is much better. QBR doesn't factor that in.

 

Passing yards isn't the end all be all but it does measure at least how much you're actually moving the ball through the air. We don't move it very well or haven't in the last 2 years.

I don't look at QBR, and I don't care about it. I'm just talking about passer rating and passing DVOA (both of which do not include scrambles). I wouldn't look up just "passing QBR," that's not a well regarded stat at all.

 

If you look at passer ratings over the last 10 years it is remarkably consistent how well it matches up with performance. Same goes for DVOA. If you think those stats can be cheated over a 29 game sample size we'll agree to disagree on that.

[Figster]

 

If he figures out how to better throw from the pocket....to be even at least above average...he would be a really dangerous QB.

He would be a true double threat and an absolute nightmare to deal with and I would be all for getting him under contract for the long term.

I agree, even a little above average from the pocket would make a world of difference IMO.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Okay I messed that one up, that's what I get for not checking my work. My point still stands, passer rating (and the other primary stats) will clearly be negatively affected by a QB that doesn't see his open receivers, or hesitates the ball. I mean this is just common sense to me, I don't understand what there is to prove.

 

As for Fahey - did you actually read his article? I'm not even gonna post it here because that will start a whole unrelated debate, but he made a good case. Did you watch every pass Flacco and Kaepernick made over the past 2 seasons because he did.

 

My point isn't about Fahey in particular anyways, just that saying "oh well Benoit is an expert analyst" is silly. Benoit recently put out his list of the 400 best players in football right now. He had Aaron Rodgers as #6 overall and here's what he said:

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/mmqb-400-nfl-top-players

 

"Rodgers is always one of the toughest players to reconcile. He's quite possibly the most talented passer in the history of football, and yet no coach in his right mind would ever tell a young quarterback to study this guy. Rodgers' footwork is flawed (or nonexistent, however you want to label a thrower who doesn't set his feet), his field vision can be perplexing and, consequently, he often holds the ball too long. And yet, there probably isn't a quarterback defenses fear more."

 

I mean... really? That's what he sees from Aaron Rodgers? He also ranked Andrew Luck as the 5th best QB - does that sound right to you? Better than Drew Brees? Hmm. How about Eli Manning ranked 8th - ahead of Derek Carr, Russell Wilson, and Cam Newton... He even ranked Prescott 17th, behind Wentz who he puts at 16th...

 

Yeah Benoit has some weird opinions about QBs.

 

Was his miss of Vernon Adams any worse than the reality of Goff and Wentz going #1 and #2 overall? Or all the GMs and analysts that missed Prescott? Is it so crazy to think that Vernon Adams IS a better prospect than at least Goff? I mean Goff was really awful last year. I don't immediately call somebody crazy just because they have a wildly different opinion from the common one, because in football the common opinion is wrong more often than not when it comes to QBs.

 

Why the Eli hate? Newton sucked last year, Russell Wilson wasn't particularly good, and Carr has only had 1 good year. Eli threw for 4000 yards and 26 TDs and that team can't run the ball at ALLLL. He had 4400 the year before.

Edited July 31, 2017 by dneveu

[Royale with Cheese]

 

i didn't realize passing measured how much you move the ball through the air. learn something every day

Good to know I added a wrinkle in your brain.

[Bangarang]

That's fair but he has been far more consistent than those guys too. He's not Geno Smith who would play a great game followed by 4 terrible ones. Tyrod has had a few great games, a couple terrible game and mostly okay games. That's different from Keenum for example. He's played a few great games, a few acceptable games and mostly terrible.

Again, I'm not comparing Tyrod's ability to anyone else right now. You seem hung up on a point that I'm not making

[Kirby Jackson]

Again, I'm not comparing Tyrod's ability to anyone else right now. You seem hung up on a point that I'm not making

I apologize if I am misinterpreting. I thought that you were talking about consistency? We both agree that a lot of QBs have had big games. We also both agree that Tyrod needs more consistency. It was just odd that you used an example of 2 guys that aren't consistent or good to illustrate the point. Tyrod is usually okay, Keenum is usually bad. I am not sure what point you were trying to illustrate of bringing up either of those guys?

[Crusher]

Okay I messed that one up, that's what I get for not checking my work. My point still stands, passer rating (and the other primary stats) will clearly be negatively affected by a QB that doesn't see his open receivers, or hesitates the ball. I mean this is just common sense to me, I don't understand what there is to prove.

 

As for Fahey - did you actually read his article? I'm not even gonna post it here because that will start a whole unrelated debate, but he made a good case. Did you watch every pass Flacco and Kaepernick made over the past 2 seasons because he did.

 

My point isn't about Fahey in particular anyways, just that saying "oh well Benoit is an expert analyst" is silly. Benoit recently put out his list of the 400 best players in football right now. He had Aaron Rodgers as #6 overall and here's what he said:

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/mmqb-400-nfl-top-players

 

"Rodgers is always one of the toughest players to reconcile. He's quite possibly the most talented passer in the history of football, and yet no coach in his right mind would ever tell a young quarterback to study this guy. Rodgers' footwork is flawed (or nonexistent, however you want to label a thrower who doesn't set his feet), his field vision can be perplexing and, consequently, he often holds the ball too long. And yet, there probably isn't a quarterback defenses fear more."

 

I mean... really? That's what he sees from Aaron Rodgers? He also ranked Andrew Luck as the 5th best QB - does that sound right to you? Better than Drew Brees? Hmm. How about Eli Manning ranked 8th - ahead of Derek Carr, Russell Wilson, and Cam Newton... He even ranked Prescott 17th, behind Wentz who he puts at 16th...

 

Yeah Benoit has some weird opinions about QBs.

 

Was his miss of Vernon Adams any worse than the reality of Goff and Wentz going #1 and #2 overall? Or all the GMs and analysts that missed Prescott? Is it so crazy to think that Vernon Adams IS a better prospect than at least Goff? I mean Goff was really awful last year. I don't immediately call somebody crazy just because they have a wildly different opinion from the common one, because in football the common opinion is wrong more often than not when it comes to QBs.

Actually, he sounds much more accurate and knowledgeable than Fahey and others, and in comparison to what I've just read in the post above, he's a genius.

 

The funny thing here is that the Tyrod guys jump all over a guy who has good things to say about Taylor, and they lambast and try to discredit the ones that don't.

 

Benoit is on point with alot of his stuff, and in regards to Taylor, he seems spot on. Especially the stuff you won't find on the stat sheet. Tyrod's game looks better in analytics than on the field.

[Royale with Cheese]

Was his miss of Vernon Adams any worse than the reality of Goff and Wentz going #1 and #2 overall? Or all the GMs and analysts that missed Prescott? Is it so crazy to think that Vernon Adams IS a better prospect than at least Goff? I mean Goff was really awful last year. I don't immediately call somebody crazy just because they have a wildly different opinion from the common one, because in football the common opinion is wrong more often than not when it comes to QBs.

 

I think it's crazy. Goff even if he didn't go #1 overall, he would have been at least a first rounder.

There were 15 QB's drafted in the 2016 draft...Adams wasn't one of them. Adams was invited to 2 mini camps...didn't make it to either one meaning he couldn't even make a 90 man training camp roster. Now he's in the CFL.

[grb]

There's a problem with saying Taylor can't find receivers. The same problem exists if you claim he can't sustain a high level of play, or has massive fundamental flaws in his game. What is it?

 

It's his stats in the 15 games where both Watkins and Woods played : 63.6% comp. 8.25 YPA. 27 TD passes. 6 INTs.

 

Now is that the be-all & end-all? No. There was too much inconsistency in his game even with a healthy receiver crew. And undoubtedly some of the fall-off in production with replacements is on Taylor's shoulders - his frustration and indecision aggravating a bad situation. But even allowing that, we have a (15) game sample size based on no other caveat than TT playing with a legit No.1&2 wide-out.

 

All Taylor needs to take the next step is make incremental improvements to the weaker areas of his game - such as throws to the middle, where even a small improvement would place him squarely in the middle of his peers. Despite last season's frustrations he did made strides in third down conversion & red zone scoring. I also though he looked more clutch at the end of games, even if he never seemed to get over the hump. I suspect there's a lot of QBs who've improved in that gradually.

 

His biggest problem will then be consistency - quarter by quarter & game by game. Some quarterbacks never get that down; consistency will set his ceiling.

Edited July 31, 2017 by grb

[26CornerBlitz]

Say what you want about Tyrod, but he has the right approach to the game in terms of preparation and leadership:

 

@MatthewFairburn

Tyrod Taylor paid for Sammy Watkins, Bills WRs to train w/ him in ATL pre camp. Talked to them about it: http://trib.al/QDhQ9Lr

[BringBackOrton]

 

Say what you want about Tyrod, but he has the right approach to the game in terms of preparation and leadership:

 

@MatthewFairburn

 

Tyrod Taylor paid for Sammy Watkins, Bills WRs to train w/ him in ATL pre camp. Talked to them about it: http://trib.al/QDhQ9Lr

Him and EJ shared that.

[Figster]

There's a problem with saying Taylor can't find receivers. The same problem exists if you claim he can't sustain a high level of play, or has massive fundamental flaws in his game. What is it?

 

It's his stats in the 15 games where both Watkins and Woods played : 63.6% comp. 8.25 YPA. 27 TD passes. 6 INTs.

 

Now is that the be-all & end-all? No. There was too much inconsistency in his game even with a healthy receiver crew. And undoubtedly some of the fall-off in production with replacements is on Taylor's shoulders - his frustration and indecision aggravating a bad situation. But even allowing that, we have a (15) game sample size based on no other caveat than TT playing with a legit No.1&2 wide-out.

 

All Taylor needs to take the next step is make incremental improvements to the weaker areas of his game - such as throws to the middle, where even a small improvement would place him squarely in the middle of his peers. Despite last season's frustrations he did made strides in third down conversion & red zone scoring. I also though he looked more clutch at the end of games, even if he never seemed to get over the hump. I suspect there's a lot of QBs who've improved in that gradually.

 

His biggest problem will then be consistency - quarter by quarter & game by game. Some quarterbacks never get that down; consistency will set his ceiling.

Nice posting grb

[Bangarang]

I apologize if I am misinterpreting. I thought that you were talking about consistency? We both agree that a lot of QBs have had big games. We also both agree that Tyrod needs more consistency. It was just odd that you used an example of 2 guys that aren't consistent or good to illustrate the point. Tyrod is usually okay, Keenum is usually bad. I am not sure what point you were trying to illustrate of bringing up either of those guys?

Consistency is the overall point I was trying to make and how even bad QBs show the occassional flash. There's no question that Tyrod is better than the guys I mentioned. I just don't get impressed by flashes when they are few and far between.

[reddogblitz]

I still say our best hope for Tyrod is that his best game (by far in my opinion) was his most recent -- the OT loss vs. the Fish. If the light was coming on and he makes strides coming off that game, it would be wonderful.

Except for missing a wide open Goowdin in the EZ for the win on the play before the Carp miss and 2 plays before the 10 men on the field 50 yard Ajaya run.

 

That's gotta end if he's gonna be THE MAN. He's GOTTA hit in those situations.

Edited July 31, 2017 by reddogblitz

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Except for missing a wide open Goowdin in the EZ for the win on the play before the Carp miss and 2 plays before the 10 men on the field 50 yard Ajaya run.

 

That's gotta end if he's gonna be THE MAN. He's GOTTA hit in those situations.

 

The reggie bush -8 yard run was what set up that debacle in the red zone. Also - Carp couldve made the 45 yard field goal.

[reddogblitz]

The reggie bush -8 yard run was what set up that debacle in the red zone. Also - Carp couldve made the 45 yard field goal.

 

Excuses excuses excuses.

 

Goodwin was there FOR THE WIN and Hotod missed him. Can't you just admit that?

 

I like Hotrod, but he's gotta be better in the clutch, or he'll go the way of Fitz, Trent, and JP and deservedly so.

 

I'm fine with his game AS IS except for his propensity to come up small when we need him most.

 

Even if Carp makes the FG, the game wasn't over. (1st possession of OT) Do you really think our D could have stopped them on the next drive? They hadn't stopped them all day.

 

A good pass there and we win!

[HappyDays]

Except for missing a wide open Goowdin in the EZ for the win on the play before the Carp miss and 2 plays before the 10 men on the field 50 yard Ajaya run.

 

That's gotta end if he's gonna be THE MAN. He's GOTTA hit in those situations.

There are 2 QBs in the entire NFL I would feel 50/50 about a last drive, down by a score type of game - Brady and Rodgers. Everyone else is below 50%, not just in my opinion but statistically. So why should Tyrod have to meet a standard that no one else does?

 

If that's your expectation for a QB worth keeping around, then keep dreaming. Those QBs aren't coming out anymore.

[reddogblitz]

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There are 2 QBs in the entire NFL I would feel 50/50 about a last drive, down by a score type of game - Brady and Rodgers. Everyone else is below 50%, not just in my opinion but statistically. So why should Tyrod have to meet a standard that no one else does?

If that's your expectation for a QB worth keeping around, then keep dreaming. Those QBs aren't coming out anymore.

It's what separates the men from the boys. Tebow was also 50% btw.

 

I don't care who you are. You gotta win a couple of games like this if you want to make the playoffs. Russell Wilson does AND he has the BEST D in the NFL.

Edited July 31, 2017 by reddogblitz

[JM2009]

Excuses excuses excuses.

 

Goodwin was there FOR THE WIN and Hotod missed him. Can't you just admit that?

 

I like Hotrod, but he's gotta be better in the clutch, or he'll go the way of Fitz, Trent, and JP and deservedly so.

 

I'm fine with his game AS IS except for his propensity to come up small when we need him most.

 

Even if Carp makes the FG, the game wasn't over. (1st possession of OT) Do you really think our D could have stopped them on the next drive? They hadn't stopped them all day.

 

A good pass there and we win!

One minute to go and Taylor hits Clay for what should have been the winning TD. Place was going crazy. To bad the defense and ST couldn't put the game away. He didn't come up small in his last game.

[GunnerBill]

Shut this down. It has gone the way of all the others. Circular arguments over and over.