The Tyrod Taylor Question

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

Ok I know there are a lot of people that love him, I also know there are a lot that want him gone. However I figured I would start a thread to see what does he have to improve in your eyes to stick with the Bills at the end of the season. I know there are some that will think there is virtually nothing he can do, but there are some that are still on the fence with him. So lets say from him as a player what do you need to see for him to stick around.

 

I am not talking about excuses like well if Sammy stays healthy or stuff like that, I would like my QB to be effective with whoever is on the field.

 

Some of mine are:

 

Better anticipation on his throws, this is one reason why there is not a lot of YAC from these WRs, his throws tend to be late. This also hurts him with my third area I would like for him to improve on.

 

Obviously using the middle of the field, In this offense Clay has a chance to shine like all Owen Daniels (Clay is much more talented) has.

 

I would like for him to be much more effective against Man Coverage. Over the last two seasons, Taylor averages 9.3 yards per attempt against zone defenses (best), but only 7.1 yards per attempt against man coverage (fifth-worst).

 

I want him to make us competitive in each game but we still lose them so we can get our real QB in 2018, I have waited 17 years I can wait 1 more.

[Chandler#81]

Young trumps Tyrod hands down with what was between his ears.

 

Young started every game he played until he came to SF. From BYU to the USFL to Tampa Bay. He was veteran ready when Joe M got hurt.

[HappyDays]

"Issue with Tyrod Taylor are the throws he doesnt attempt. Leaves too many open receivers on the field. No stat can show this."

Benoit is wrong. Of course there's a stat that shows this, in fact several. If a QB is really constantly missing open receivers on the field then his passer rating, YPA, DVOA, etc. will be low. This is the NFL, there is not much room for error. You can't miss open receivers as much as people think Tyrod did and end up top 10 in passer rating like he did in 2015. He ended 18th in 2016. Which means he was slightly below average at delivering the ball to his receivers in 2016.

 

His hesitancy is also a positive in one way - keeping turnovers low has high correlation to making the playoffs, compared to something like passing yards which has lower correlation. Someone can be too hesitant and Tyrod is certainly at least somewhat too hesitant, but it's also possible to be not hesitant enough like Blake Bortles. I would love a perfect middle ground but personally I'll take slightly too hesitant over slightly not-hesitant-enough every time. Many football games are 1-score games so I'd rather my QB's mistake lead to a punt than a turnover.

[GunnerBill]

Benoit is wrong. Of course there's a stat that shows this, in fact several. If a QB is really constantly missing open receivers on the field then his passer rating, YPA, DVOA, etc. will be low. This is the NFL, there is not much room for error. You can't miss open receivers as much as people think Tyrod did and end up top 10 in passer rating like he did in 2015. He ended 18th in 2016. Which means he was slightly below average at delivering the ball to his receivers in 2016.

 

His hesitancy is also a positive in one way - keeping turnovers low has high correlation to making the playoffs, compared to something like passing yards which has lower correlation. Someone can be too hesitant and Tyrod is certainly at least somewhat too hesitant, but it's also possible to be not hesitant enough like Blake Bortles. I would love a perfect middle ground but personally I'll take slightly too hesitant over slightly not-hesitant-enough every time. Many football games are 1-score games so I'd rather my QB's mistake lead to a punt than a turnover.

 

Benoit doesn't mean "missing" them with throws. He means not seeing them. "Missing" them in the sense of missing that there is a guy streaking open as Tyrod scrambles out of bounds for 2 yards. Not trying to throw to them and being off target.

[Crusher]

He makes a lot of plays that others don't too. That's why he's polarizing. Some people look at the bad and say "there's too much of that." Others look at just the good and say "how are you so sure we can replace that." I can't say a guy that has 47 TDs & 12 INTs in 29 starts, with a winning record, is below average. Now if it's a semantically argument is he "top16" than I'd agree that he's below average. He's in the 20 range IMO but with a chance to improve. I'd say guys like Tannehill and Smith are below him and not likely to improve.

How do you believe he can improve?

 

Hard to see strides being made with the known limitations in making reads and anticipation, as well as avoiding certain parts of the field.

 

I honestly see no possible way he can improve. He can maybe be more effective for a time in a gadget style offense, but that is not sustainable, and it also could increase the chance for injury.

[BringBackOrton]

I said somewhere in there, yes. I said exactly "By whatever measurements or metrics or I tests you want to use, you could put Taylor anywhere from 7 to 15 reasonably, I think."

 

To which you reply...

With this... as though he was definitively 7.

 

Just some strange interpretation there.

If you think someone could "reasonably put him at 7" (direct quote from you, pay attention), then we'll never agree. That's just far too high. 8 is also too high. And 9. And 10.

 

I appreciate you trying to parse language to play the snark game, even though I knew exactly what you said, and responded correctly.

[26CornerBlitz]

Benoit is wrong. Of course there's a stat that shows this, in fact several. If a QB is really constantly missing open receivers on the field then his passer rating, YPA, DVOA, etc. will be low. This is the NFL, there is not much room for error. You can't miss open receivers as much as people think Tyrod did and end up top 10 in passer rating like he did in 2015. He ended 18th in 2016. Which means he was slightly below average at delivering the ball to his receivers in 2016.

 

His hesitancy is also a positive in one way - keeping turnovers low has high correlation to making the playoffs, compared to something like passing yards which has lower correlation. Someone can be too hesitant and Tyrod is certainly at least somewhat too hesitant, but it's also possible to be not hesitant enough like Blake Bortles. I would love a perfect middle ground but personally I'll take slightly too hesitant over slightly not-hesitant-enough every time. Many football games are 1-score games so I'd rather my QB's mistake lead to a punt than a turnover.

 

Benoit's point was Tyrod not making throws at all with receivers open on too many occasions.

Edited July 31, 2017 by 26CornerBlitz

[Crusher]

Benoit is wrong. Of course there's a stat that shows this, in fact several. If a QB is really constantly missing open receivers on the field then his passer rating, YPA, DVOA, etc. will be low. This is the NFL, there is not much room for error. You can't miss open receivers as much as people think Tyrod did and end up top 10 in passer rating like he did in 2015. He ended 18th in 2016. Which means he was slightly below average at delivering the ball to his receivers in 2016.

 

His hesitancy is also a positive in one way - keeping turnovers low has high correlation to making the playoffs, compared to something like passing yards which has lower correlation. Someone can be too hesitant and Tyrod is certainly at least somewhat too hesitant, but it's also possible to be not hesitant enough like Blake Bortles. I would love a perfect middle ground but personally I'll take slightly too hesitant over slightly not-hesitant-enough every time. Many football games are 1-score games so I'd rather my QB's mistake lead to a punt than a turnover.

Problem is that you can play it safe and keep it close, but that means you need to pull it out in crunch time, and we all know Taylor has failed miserably in these situations.

[GunnerBill]

If you think someone could "reasonably put him at 7" (direct quote from you, pay attention), then we'll never agree. That's just far too high. 8 is also too high. And 9. And 10.

 

Agree.

[Royale with Cheese]

Benoit is wrong. Of course there's a stat that shows this, in fact several. If a QB is really constantly missing open receivers on the field then his passer rating, YPA, DVOA, etc. will be low. This is the NFL, there is not much room for error. You can't miss open receivers as much as people think Tyrod did and end up top 10 in passer rating like he did in 2015. He ended 18th in 2016. Which means he was slightly below average at delivering the ball to his receivers in 2016.

 

His hesitancy is also a positive in one way - keeping turnovers low has high correlation to making the playoffs, compared to something like passing yards which has lower correlation. Someone can be too hesitant and Tyrod is certainly at least somewhat too hesitant, but it's also possible to be not hesitant enough like Blake Bortles. I would love a perfect middle ground but personally I'll take slightly too hesitant over slightly not-hesitant-enough every time. Many football games are 1-score games so I'd rather my QB's mistake lead to a punt than a turnover.

 

Gotta disagree. There have been others such as Steve Tasker, Donald Jones and Greg Cossell who watched all the film and said Tyrod missed a lot of open WR's.

Also if you're playing safe, those numbers won't be low, especially since he doesn't throw a lot of picks. There isn't a stat that shows x number of missed WR's.

Anthony Lynn commented on that as well. He said he loves Tyrod doesn't turn it over but also plays it too safe.

 

Plus, just like every measurable stat...they can be skewed, even QBR.

 

 

But today I decided to dig a little deeper into what is, according to QBR, the greatest game any quarterback has ever played: Charlie Batch’s 186-yard, two-interception performance against the Buccaneers in 2010.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/19/charlie-batchs-186-yard-two-pick-game-has-espns-best-qbr-ever/

 

Yes Taylor's QBR was 9th in the league but it was heavily influenced by his 21.6 run.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Teeflebees

[Maury Ballstein]

Benoit is wrong. .

Taylor fan vs Benoit

 

(has written for CBSSports.com, The New York Times, Football Outsiders, USA Today and Sports Network.[3][4][5][6] He is the author of Andy Benoit's Touchdown: Everything You Need to Know about the NFL This Year, which was published by Random House through the years 2006-2007,[7][8] and the co-author of Football Outsiders Almanac 2013: The Essential Guide to the 2013 NFL and College Football Seasons.[9])

 

 

I'll side with the unbiased one.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Maury Ballstein

[Kirby Jackson]

How do you believe he can improve?

 

Hard to see strides being made with the known limitations in making reads and anticipation, as well as avoiding certain parts of the field.

 

I honestly see no possible way he can improve. He can maybe be more effective for a time in a gadget style offense, but that is not sustainable, and it also could increase the chance for injury.

That's an interesting question. I think if he throws with more anticipation that would be the biggest area. It will also be required in this offense. He also needs to force the ball to his playmakers more. It will likely result in more INTs but potentially more plays as well. He's a little too conservative. Watkins needs 10 targets a game and sometimes he may look "covered" but you need to give him a chance to make plays. Too often we've seen Tyrod throw it away or run it.

 

The way Tyrod has been managed through his first few years starting is like Ben and Wilson were. I'm not saying that he will ever be like them but those teams started as run first, defensive oriented teams that asked the QB to manage the game. Their roles continued to expand. We will see this year if TT is capable of handling an expanded role. The problem that the Bills had is the defense went from good to bad upon Rex's arrival. If the Schwartz defense were still in place I would think that the Bills would have been a playoff team in the last 2 years.

[BuffaloHokie13]

Certainly not 20th. That's just ludicrous. It's ludicrous in the same way it would be if you were to say that Taylor was a top three quarterback in 2015. By whatever measurements or metrics or I tests you want to use, you could put Taylor anywhere from 7 to 15 reasonably, I think.

Based on my own special blend of metrics I've been working on I've got Tyrod at 13th of 37 qualifying QBs in 2015, 14th of 33 qualifying QBs in 2016, and 15th of 26 qualifying QBs over the two years compiled.

[eball]

That's an interesting question. I think if he throws with more anticipation that would be the biggest area. It will also be required in this offense. He also needs to force the ball to his playmakers more. It will likely result in more INTs but potentially more plays as well. He's a little too conservative. Watkins needs 10 targets a game and sometimes he may look "covered" but you need to give him a chance to make plays. Too often we've seen Tyrod throw it away or run it.

 

The way Tyrod has been managed through his first few years starting is like Ben and Wilson were. I'm not saying that he will ever be like them but those teams started as run first, defensive oriented teams that asked the QB to manage the game. Their roles continued to expand. We will see this year if TT is capable of handling an expanded role. The problem that the Bills had is the defense went from good to bad upon Rex's arrival. If the Schwartz defense were still in place I would think that the Bills would have been a playoff team in the last 2 years.

 

I still say our best hope for Tyrod is that his best game (by far in my opinion) was his most recent -- the OT loss vs. the Fish. If the light was coming on and he makes strides coming off that game, it would be wonderful.

[Thurman#1]

He makes a lot of plays that others don't too. That's why he's polarizing. Some people look at the bad and say "there's too much of that." Others look at just the good and say "how are you so sure we can replace that." I can't say a guy that has 47 TDs & 12 INTs in 29 starts, with a winning record, is below average. Now if it's a semantically argument is he "top16" than I'd agree that he's below average. He's in the 20 range IMO but with a chance to improve. I'd say guys like Tannehill and Smith are below him and not likely to improve.

 

 

He really does make a lot of plays that others don't. The large majority of which are run plays.

 

He is indeed polarizing.

 

As for the rest of your claims, Tyrod doesn't have a winning record. The Buffalo Bills do in games when Tyrod starts. The other 50 or so players may have had some little bit of credit coming to them for those wins. Wins is a team stat. And I'm not sure who you're talking about who has 47 TDs, but it can't be Tyrod. He has 37 TDs. In 29 starts, I would indeed call that below average. If you're saying he's about 20th then we're in almost exact agreement, and yeah I call that "slightly below average," my words,and I find it hard to imagine how anyone could have an issue with calling 20th out of 32 slightly below average. We totally disagree about Alex Smith, though, I can see.

 

However, as you point out, I do love the way Tyrod protects the ball. His low INT % is a real plus. The coaches must love that, and I certainly respect it.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I still say our best hope for Tyrod is that his best game (by far in my opinion) was his most recent -- the OT loss vs. the Fish. If the light was coming on and he makes strides coming off that game, it would be wonderful.

Agreed

[transplantbillsfan]

What are your thoughts on Kaep as a QB? I'd assume you think as highly of him as you do Tyrod.

Why the hell would you think that?

[Thurman#1]

I still don't get that argument though. You can only play when called upon. Kurt Warner bagged groceries. Jake Delhomme kicked around in Europe. Jeff Garcia was in Canada as were Flutie and Moon. Matt Schaub is a similar situation to Tyrod. He was a backup, to a locked in starter, that had to go elsewhere to get his chance. He's almost a year younger than Russell Wilson. He's a month older than Andrew Luck. It's not like the guy is old.

 

 

I'm not counting the time spent on the bench against them. Not at all.

 

In many ways sitting the bench for a while can be a huge advantage, as it was for Aaron Rodgers. I'm simply pointing out what history shows, that guys who don't show themselves a franchise guy by their sixth year in the league don't do so, with the exception of Loose Gannon. That's true of guys who sat the bench and those who didn't.

 

It's not impossible. And Tyrod's clearly a terrific guy, he's smart and he works himself to the bone. I hope it happens for him. I just think history shows very clearly that that's unlikely.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

 

 

He really does make a lot of plays that others don't. The large majority of which are run plays.

 

He is indeed polarizing.

 

As for the rest of your claims, Tyrod doesn't have a winning record. The Buffalo Bills do in games when Tyrod starts. The other 50 or so players may have had some little bit of credit coming to them for those wins. Wins is a team stat. And I'm not sure who you're talking about who has 47 TDs, but it can't be Tyrod. He has 37 TDs. In 29 starts, I would indeed call that below average. If you're saying he's about 20th then we're in almost exact agreement, and yeah I call that "slightly below average," my words,and I find it hard to imagine how anyone could have an issue with calling 20th out of 32 slightly below average. We totally disagree about Alex Smith, though, I can see.

 

However, as you point out, I do love the way Tyrod protects the ball. His low INT % is a real plus. The coaches must love that, and I certainly respect it.

 

I think they added his 10 rushing TDs in his total.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

He really does make a lot of plays that others don't. The large majority of which are run plays.

 

He is indeed polarizing.

 

As for the rest of your claims, Tyrod doesn't have a winning record. The Buffalo Bills do in games when Tyrod starts. The other 50 or so players may have had some little bit of credit coming to them for those wins. Wins is a team stat. And I'm not sure who you're talking about who has 47 TDs, but it can't be Tyrod. He has 37 TDs. In 29 starts, I would indeed call that below average. If you're saying he's about 20th then we're in almost exact agreement, and yeah I call that "slightly below average," my words,and I find it hard to imagine how anyone could have an issue with calling 20th out of 32 slightly below average. We totally disagree about Alex Smith, though, I can see.

 

However, as you point out, I do love the way Tyrod protects the ball. His low INT % is a real plus. The coaches must love that, and I certainly respect it.

His 10 rushing TDs make 47. We aren't far apart on this though. He has some strengths and some weaknesses. He needs to cover some of his flaws but not at the expense of his strengths. That's the tricky part. He can certainly cut down sacks for example by just throwing the ball away quickly. If that happens he will be giving up his escapability which we don't want. We want sacks cut down without that. It's tough. I don't know if he will be able to do that or not. I'd say there's a chance but likely he is a similar player to the guy that he's been.

 

In terms of Alex Smith I've always been a fan. He's just limited. He's the ultimate game manager and I mean that as a compliment. He's in that tier with Tyrod, Tannehill, Dalton and Flacco (imo). Guys that you can win with but don't win because of (outside of Flacco's playoff run).

Edited July 31, 2017 by Kirby Jackson