GG Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 How so? Definitely not following. I'm saying pay educators more, period. Hadn't even begun discussing performance yet. You made a declarative statement that the biggest problem with public education is funding, specifically that teachers are underpaid. Yet data shows that teacher pay is lower in better performing schools than in worse performing schools. We can wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 You made a declarative statement that the biggest problem with public education is funding, specifically that teachers are underpaid. Yet data shows that teacher pay is lower in better performing schools than in worse performing schools. We can wait. I believe the data shows that there is no correlation between teacher pay and student performance, as opposed to the inverse relationship you suggest. And I agree with the earlier that engaged parents are an important component, no doubt. But when it boils down to most bang for your educational buck I believe the money is best spent on the people doing the educating, and that making the position more attractive financially will raise the talent pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Franklin Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) I believe the data shows that there is no correlation between teacher pay and student performance, as opposed to the inverse relationship you suggest. And I agree with the earlier that engaged parents are an important component, no doubt. But when it boils down to most bang for your educational buck I believe the money is best spent on the people doing the educating, and that making the position more attractive financially will raise the talent pool. It's not as simple as either one of the premises, yours or his, of course. Teacher salary will attract better teachers...somewhat. But can better teachers get a class of North Philly kids admitted to Princeton? The salaries at many private schools are not a lot more than private counterparts and even worse in suburbs of big cities, but the students perform better. Wealthier students will perform better depends on family, safety, nutrition, and a gajillion other reasons. So the social engineering isn't as easy as pay teachers more and get better student results. Better pay only helps so much. Edited July 11, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I believe the data shows that there is no correlation between teacher pay and student performance, as opposed to the inverse relationship you suggest. And I agree with the earlier that engaged parents are an important component, no doubt. But when it boils down to most bang for your educational buck I believe the money is best spent on the people doing the educating, and that making the position more attractive financially will raise the talent pool. Please tell me if I understand your position properly. You say above that there's no correlation between teacher pay and student performance. Yet your solution to fixing education is to pay teachers more. Does that cover it? And then you wonder why you're called an idiot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 It's not as simple as either one of the premises, yours or his, of course. Teacher salary will attract better teachers...somewhat. But can better teachers get a class of North Philly kids admitted to Princeton? Wealthier students will perform better for family, safety, nutrition, and a gajillion other reasons. The salaries at many private schools are not a lot more than private counterparts and even worse in suburbs of big cities, but the students perform better. So the math isn't as easy as pay teachers more and get better student results. Better pay only helps so much. Of course. But students from families with higher incomes and wealthier communities are predisposed to succeed academically. I'm simply talking about raising the quality of educators to the benefit of children in the public school system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Franklin Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Of course. But students from families with higher incomes and wealthier communities are predisposed to succeed academically. I'm simply talking about raising the quality of educators to the benefit of children in the public school system. Show me what result comes from raising the salary. Teaching isn't that hard. Dedication. Presentation. Creativity. Empathy. Those bits can't be taught and paid for without offering a fortune and have more to do with success teaching 6th grade than a 4.0 from an Ivy. Edited July 11, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Show me what result comes from raising the salary. Teaching isn't that hard. Dedication. Presentation. Creativity. Empathy. Those bits can't be taught and paid for without offering a fortune and have more to do with success teaching 6th grade than a 4.0 from an Ivy. I don't see why paying more for talent is such a difficult concept. Teaching may not be that 'hard', but I consider it important and certainly worthy of an income above the median. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Of course. But students from families with higher incomes and wealthier communities are predisposed to succeed academically. I'm simply talking about raising the quality of educators to the benefit of children in the public school system. Please tell me more about this "predisposed" term Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) I don't see why paying more for talent is such a difficult concept. Teaching may not be that 'hard', but I consider it important and certainly worthy of an income above the median. You've already argued, just a few posts back, that teacher salary doesn't correlate with student performance. Edited July 12, 2017 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Please tell me more about this "predisposed" term More likely to have a stable upbringing, more likely to go to preschool. The fact that higher income parents will spend 7x as much as low income parents on their childrens' education. Better nutrition. Healthier and thus able to function cognitively at higher levels. And that's without mentioning how public funding of education disenfranchises low income communities. You've already argued, just a few posts back, that teacher salary doesn't corolate with student performance. I referenced that study, but I think it's pretty clear that correlating performance to a salary range of roughly $35K on the low end and around $75K on the high isn't a dilemma if we're talking about substantially raising teacher pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) I referenced that study, but I think it's pretty clear that correlating performance to a salary range of roughly $35K on the low end and around $75K on the high isn't a dilemma if we're talking about substantially raising teacher pay. So is doesn't correlate, except when it does as relates to arbitrary and undefined salary increases? Edited July 12, 2017 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 More likely to have a stable upbringing, more likely to go to preschool. The fact that higher income parents will spend 7x as much as low income parents on their childrens' education. Better nutrition. Healthier and thus able to function cognitively at higher levels. And that's without mentioning how public funding of education disenfranchises low income communities. I referenced that study, but I think it's pretty clear that correlating performance to a salary range of roughly $35K on the low end and around $75K on the high isn't a dilemma if we're talking about substantially raising teacher pay. And in the same breath that you insist that there's no correlation between teacher pay and student performance, you introduce an argument that more parental involvement predisposes kids to do better in school. Keep arguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 So is doesn't corolate, except when it does as relates to arbitrary and undefined salary increases? I wouldn't be surprised if there's no correlation in performance in NFL wideouts making between the vet minimum and whatever...say $775,000. But once you get into the guys making $2.5M and above, they're of a higher caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinreaper Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) FWIW: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/05/23/the-dramatic-inequality-of-public-school-spending-in-america/?utm_term=.80a6f5621c72https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/05/23/the-dramatic-inequality-of-public-school-spending-in-america/?utm_term=.80a6f5621c72https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/05/23/the-dramatic-inequality-of-public-school-spending-in-america/?utm_term=.80a6f5621c72 To drill down to the school district-level, these are the per-pupil rates in the highest-spending school systems with more than 40,000 students. Seven of the top 18 are in Maryland: Edited July 11, 2017 by grinreaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 And in the same breath that you insist that there's no correlation between teacher pay and student performance, you introduce an argument that more parental involvement predisposes kids to do better in school. Keep arguing. Never argued that parental involvement wasn't a factor in how children perform in school. Much like income, it plays a huge role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I wouldn't be surprised if there's no correlation in performance in NFL wideouts making between the vet minimum and whatever...say $775,000. But once you get into the guys making $2.5M and above, they're of a higher caliber. So you're proposing a system where good performers are paid market rate and the under-performers are tossed when they can't contribute? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Franklin Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I don't see why paying more for talent is such a difficult concept. Teaching may not be that 'hard', but I consider it important and certainly worthy of an income above the median. This article just out. School funding not always linked to results - BBC News https://apple.news/AoftJBMCcTZGzyMzeBsLUog Not citing it as definitive but again: High pay is not directly linked to better results. The soup that makes up student performance has a lot of ingredients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 This article just out. School funding not always linked to results - BBC News https://apple.news/AoftJBMCcTZGzyMzeBsLUog Not citing it as definitive but again: High pay is not directly linked to better results. The soup that makes up student performance has a lot of ingredients. The overwhelming majority of those ingredients are found in the home, and there is nothing the state can do to replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 This article just out. School funding not always linked to results - BBC News https://apple.news/AoftJBMCcTZGzyMzeBsLUog Not citing it as definitive but again: High pay is not directly linked to better results. The soup that makes up student performance has a lot of ingredients. Problem is, you have the NEA filling the airwaves on TV and radio attempting to convey just that message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Problem is, you have the NEA filling the airwaves on TV and radio attempting to convey just that message. TV, yay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts