SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 EJ is gone and had zero impact on the 2016 season in Buffalo. TT is who we have and who we need to step up in the passing game. Lets focus on what is and not some fantasy of blaming the backup for the Bills not making the WC. I am not defending EJ (for those about to say I'm an EJ lover)
GunnerBill Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 Why has this turned into an EJ Manuel discussion? He is gone, he ain't returning... he failed. Let's move on. Otherwise why don't we have a Tyrod vs Trent discussion or a Tyrod vs JP chat? Equally pointless.
Gugny Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 Why has this turned into an EJ Manuel discussion? He is gone, he ain't returning... he failed. Let's move on. Otherwise why don't we have a Tyrod vs Trent discussion or a Tyrod vs JP chat? Equally pointless. Totally agree. ScottLaw likes to come into threads in which I'm active and randomly mention how he doesn't respect me because I once thought EJ was good. He's got some sort of weird hard on for me and that is how the EJ topic came up. I agree with you, Gunner. That era is over. This thread is about the coming year's passing game and we should all stay on topic.
BarleyNY Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 I'll admit I only skimmed the article quickly (on my phone) but I'm not sure it really defined why most of that was tyrods strengths. It seemed to mostly focus on why they are effective plays in the scheme. Examples -- yes, playaction is great for putting pressure on a defense. Especially in a strong running offense. Question though- Tyrod struggles to see the field as is, so I question if turning his back to the line and having to turn back and make a quick read from a blind start is "playing to his strength." I'll say I've long thought his pre snap reads were a coaching concern so if he's turning back from the play action truly blind because of that (doesn't know where to anticipate the coverage to be from pre snap reads) it could be a disaster Similarly, I think TT was very weak at getting the ball out in time an offense that seemed to have simple reads. Why is a quick decision focus playing to his strengths? If anything, I feel like we will either need a very simplified version of the scheme or if really throwing him in, it plays to some of his currently perceived weaknesses. We will see if he steps up, or flames out hugely. Quick reads and throwing in the middle might see some of those ball security numbers that have truly been his strength go the wrong direction. It feels like the ideal would be keeping last year's basics with just a few added wrinkles and talent at WR I was going to post almost the exact same thing and I agree with your subsequent points too. Tyrod will either step up in his problem areas and we will have our QB or he'll be out - and a WCO will absolutely showcase those areas. Pushing him to improve is absolutely the right move because this needs to be the season to find out if he can do it or not. Not to anoint Peterman or anything, but he's definitely a fit for the WCO. It's probably the only kind of NFL offense he has a chance to be successful in. It shows you the kind of QB the Bills will likely focus on acquiring if Tyrod isn't successful.
Kirby Jackson Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) Guilty of hyperbole. But I am convinced that Tyrod Taylor is not going to be the Buffalo Bills' starter after this season and I am convinced that this is the last season he will begin as the starter on any NFL team. I think he's an incredible athlete who can throw a sweet deep ball and is a legitimate threat on the field when he runs. To me, however, it's about two things: can he do the important things (being decisive, accurately passing over the middle of the field) consistently - and - can he do it when the Bills need him to do it most. From what I've seen over the past two seasons, the answer to those two questions is a resounding "no." Is he good? Yes. Is he good enough? Not by a long shot. I think that's certainly fair. Cam Newton set rookie passing records for qbs and passed for 4,000 yards. He's also a monster and has dominated football on almost every level he's been on. 1) I was big fan of EJ because of spending a 1st round pick, his size, the way he carried himself, and the way some fans crapped on him right away. His development was garbage but ultimately, he wasn't good enough. It has nothing to do with my evaluation of Tyrod, who is very likable and hard working. 2) I'm not a fan of smaller qbs who rely on their legs. History shows you don't consistently win with those guys. If Tyrod has EJ's size, I would feel a little better about his chances. 3) I hate these advance stats. I know what I watch. It's an inconsistent offense that has some good players and a good oline. They can make big plays but they also can be painful when they aren't on. They drag for halves. Rex sucked but stats like the offense falling apart in Miami and Oakland aren't available. 4) I've made a lot of excuses for shortcomings of Bills qbs. I think Tyrod is about as good of a qb as they had in awhile. But when I watch him compared to good NFL qbs, I feel like we are playing a different level of football, This is fair as well. Edited July 12, 2017 by Kirby Jackson
Kirby Jackson Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) Why has this turned into an EJ Manuel discussion? He is gone, he ain't returning... he failed. Let's move on. Otherwise why don't we have a Tyrod vs Trent discussion or a Tyrod vs JP chat? Equally pointless. Pretty sure that it's my fault (but hear me out). I think that a lot of the tension here regarding the QB is a result (whether directly or not) of hard feelings after their QB of choice lost the battle. If you pull Tyrod down it makes you "less wrong" about your QB evaluation. It's kind of how I won't ever give Hogan the credit he deserves because I believed Da'Rick deserved the job. If we can move on from the route of our disdain, admit we were wrong, and drop the hyperbole we can have an intelligent conversation on the situation. It wasn't meant to be a comparison between the EJ & Tyrod, as there isn't one. This was about trying to bring the route of the issue to the surface and then moving on. The conversation goes nowhere when people try to lump Tyrod in with Cam Newton or EJ Manuel. He's way better than one and way worse than the other. He's in the Tannehill class at this point, a decent NFL starter. We don't need to pretend that he's great or terrible to try to get our point across. If we can all agree on that the real debate the conversation can start. Is that level good enough? We are in the middle of a really interesting time with that being said. For a long time teams haven't been willing to get rid of pretty good for a chance to be great. Tannehill, Alex Smith and Andy Dalton have started a lot of games over the last few years. We've seen those teams in the playoffs but haven't seen them threaten for a title. Will the tide turn and teams start jettisoning those solid starters to try to get over the hump? We saw the Chiefs invest 2 first round picks on Mahomes, clearly they are heading that way. The Bills are right in the middle of this situation but without the long resume. Those guys have a lot more starts than Tyrod at this point. If he stays healthy they will have 45 starts and that should be enough to make that decision. It's a really interesting time and decision for the Bills. If that's the focus of the conversation it would be so much better than "he sucks" or "he's going to the HOF." Edited July 12, 2017 by Kirby Jackson
HappyDays Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 There is no doubt about that. I think, had he remained the starter, that the Bills still would have been around .500 for the past two years. This is where you lose me. How can you possibly think this? He has looked awful in every one of his opportunities the past two seasons. 2013 or even 2014 EJ could maybe go .500 with the Rex Ryan Bills but the truth is EJ got a lot worse as his career progressed. It happens to a lot of players. The Jaguars in 2015 were arguably the easiest game of the year and he completely flopped. Even in the easy wins Tyrod was doing things that EJ couldn't. There was one point in the Browns game last year where the Bills were only ahead by a TD. From that point on Tyrod was 7-7 and our offense pulled away. I mean what if EJ is playing and instead he throws a pick (far more likely with him in the game than Tyrod) and the Browns score to tie? There's no guarantee even THAT was a win with EJ in. You may think you're being reasonable about Tyrod, and a lot of what you say is reasonable enough, but this idea that the team could have performed equally well with ANYONE at QB is just wrong. And that's what people mean when they say you are being hyperbolic about Tyrod. He isn't nearly as meaningless in our wins as you say he is. We have actual games where EJ started to point to so I'm shocked anyone could still believe they are on the same level.
Kirby Jackson Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 No. It was just to point out I can't take your QB take seriously because of that, along with your false and mostly over exaggerated takes on TT... You clearly don't know what your assessing at the position. He's way worse than Cam? Completely disagree. Can is better but by a wide margin? No way. Cam played in the Super Bowl and was the MVP of the league. Yes, at this point he is way worse than Cam.
Bills757 Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) I honestly don't think so. I think EJ is a great kid with a great work ethic (like Tyrod), but he just lacked "it," (like Tyrod). BUT ... he did get a raw deal from day one. There is no doubt about that. I think, had he remained the starter, that the Bills still would have been around .500 for the past two years. They're simply not that far apart, as far as overall effectiveness is concerned. I think Tyrod's got more athletic ability. But I think EJ is smarter. But Fitz proved that being smart is only one piece to the puzzle. There's a reason there aren't that many great QBs in the league at any given time. It's not easy. Raw deal? Really? He was "over signed"......that's what went wrong with EJ. He was 3rd to 4th round talent that somehow got drafted in the first round by a guy who no longer has a job in Buffalo. The expectations heaped on a first rounder are far different than that of a 4th rounder for sure. EJ never really had it at FSU. He had tons of talent around him (unlike Taylor) but he didn't have great success there. Not sure Whaley looked past EJ's height and weight....stunned how the Bills wasted that pick. EJ didn't make the team around him better like Taylor did in college. EJ's smarter than TT? Maybe if we're talking about taking a class (and that's even doubtful). It's about having the ability to make good decisions in a split second. You can be the smartest QB around at understanding the offense but when it comes down to execution, if you can't make the plays, you look like the dumbest guy on the field. And think what you want but your dreaming about the Bills going .500 with EJ at the helm over the past two years. The Jags game in London should've been proof enough. Nice dude but not an NFL starter, at least at this point. Edited July 12, 2017 by Bills757
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) Why has this turned into an EJ Manuel discussion? He is gone, he ain't returning... he failed. Let's move on. Otherwise why don't we have a Tyrod vs Trent discussion or a Tyrod vs JP chat? Equally pointless. because it's easier to blame the backup for the faults of the starter. Who will they blame this year? TJ, CJ or NP? Edited July 12, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan
BuffaloHokie13 Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 because it's easier to blame the backup for the faults of the starter. Has there even been one instance of that in this thread?
Gugny Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 Raw deal? Really? He was "over signed"......that's what went wrong with EJ. He was 3rd to 4th round talent that somehow got drafted in the first round by a guy who no longer has a job in Buffalo. The expectations heaped on a first rounder are far different than that of a 4th rounder for sure. EJ never really had it at FSU. He had tons of talent around him (unlike Taylor) but he didn't have great success there. Not sure Whaley looked past EJ's height and weight....stunned how the Bills wasted that pick. EJ didn't make the team around him better like Taylor did in college. EJ's smarter than TT? Maybe if we're talking about taking a class (and that's even doubtful). It's about having the ability to make good decisions in a split second. You can be the smartest QB around at understanding the offense but when it comes down to execution, if you can't make the plays, you look like the dumbest guy on the field. And think what you want but your dreaming about the Bills going .500 with EJ at the helm over the past two years. The Jags game in London should've been proof enough. Nice dude but not an NFL starter, at least at this point. Your input is greatly appreciated, but the topic of this thread has nothing to do with former Bills QBs; it's about the near future/how the passing game will be this coming season. Personally, I think that the pretty stats of the past will not be duplicated this year. A baseball team can have a player hit 55 HR in a season; if they were all solo shots with the team either up or down by 5+ runs, it becomes a meaningless - albeit very pretty - statistic. I want to see more effective 2-minute drills. I want to see a pass play over the middle of the field executed on a crucial 3rd and long. I want to feel confident in the offense when they take the field down by 4 late in the game. I think the new coaching staff has no choice but to call big boy plays in big boy situations. Those situations will define TT and determine his future, IMO.
Kirby Jackson Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 He had a great year in 2015. If you look at the his career as a whole, Tyrod is not WAY worse then Cam Newton. Cam Newton has averaged 31 TDs a year and carried a mediocore team to the Super Bowl while winning the MVP. They aren't comparable players at this point.
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) Has there even been one instance of that in this thread? Was EJ mentioned? Then YES it has. Passing Game Moving Forward has ZERO, NADA, ZILCH to do with the former backup QB for the Buffalo Bills. Edited July 12, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan
Gugny Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 No. It was just to point out I can't take your QB take seriously because of that, along with your false and mostly over exaggerated takes on TT... You clearly don't know what your assessing at the position. Says the guy who thinks Tyrod Taylor is comparable to Cam Newton. Homer.
Kirby Jackson Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) Was EJ mentioned? Then YES it has. Passing Game Moving Forward has ZERO, NADA, ZILCH to do with the former backup QB for the Buffalo Bills. I don't think that the questions was "has EJ been mentioned?" Hokie's question is "when did someone blame EJ for Tyrod's struggles?" Those aren't the same question. Edited July 12, 2017 by Kirby Jackson
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 The drafting of EJ sums up the Bills incompetent organizational thinking for year upon years and it's why they suck year in and year out. The thought was "we are taking a QB in the first round even if they all suck." It's the type of thinking from the people making the football decisions that helps explain why they've been stuck in mediocrity for so long. The same incompetent thinking FO that brought in TT Sorry, who could resist that?
BuffaloHokie13 Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 Was EJ mentioned? Then YES it has. Passing Game Moving Forward has ZEROm NADA, ZIP to do with the former backup QB for the Buffalo Bills. Mentioning EJ and 'blaming the backup for the faults of the starter' are 2 very different things. We've had 1 person bring up EJ as an example of someone else's QB Evaluation abilities - nothing to do with your statement. We've had another suggest that those who are inexplicably hard on Tyrod may still feel scorned about the whole EJ saga - nothing to do with your statement.
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) I don't think that the questions was "gas EJ been mentioned?" Hokie's question is "when did someone blame EJ for Tyrod's struggles?" Those aren't the same question. the mere mention of EJ is ridiculous. Why mention him at all? Tyrod's struggles are here and now. To call upon the ghost of EJ is deflecting and a straw man argument. 15 more days!!! It can't get here soon enough Edited July 12, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan
Kirby Jackson Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) the mere mention of EJ is ridiculous. Why mention him at all? Tyrod's struggles are here and now. To call upon the ghost of EJ is deflecting and a straw man argument. 15 more days!!! It can't get here soon enough I explained in an earlier post why I mentioned him. I think that it is valid. EJ has nothing to do with Tyrod's play. The point was more the perception from those that supported EJ has distorted their reality on TT. If he is pulled down it makes you "less wrong" about EJ. That's human nature. No one ever said anything about blaming EJ for Tyrod's play though as you claimed. This thread has officially gone off the rails. Let's just go back to the merits of the original post. Edited July 12, 2017 by Kirby Jackson
Recommended Posts