Article on why 2017 passing game can make giant leap forward

[transplantbillsfan]

 

Re: Vick - he took the league by storm and was also twice the athlete anyone who came after him was. But once teams figured out how to stop him and to make him try to be a real QB, career over.

 

Re: Cam Newton - I will respectfully disagree with your assessment. I think Newton passes the ball just about as well as he runs. I think he's the real deal and will be around for a long time.

 

Re: Taylor - I will also respectfully disagree with your statement that he's a pocket passer. He's anything but. He stays in the pocket for about 1 second, then bails and holds the ball for another 6 seconds before he either takes a dumb sack, throws a bad pass or runs. I think, after Buffalo, his future will be as a backup, where many teams would love to have him.

 

Sorry, but go look at Vick's career. His career was over because of age. You act like his best years were his first couple years except they were his first couple years and they weren't. If you're saying that by the time teams saw about 100 games worth of film on tape that was what ended his career because by then he was figured out, that's a stretch. Vick played at a very high level in 2010 with the Eagles. Vick was pretty special. Taylor's not there, but he's definitely closer to the athlete Vick was than pretty much anyone I can think of at QB before or since.

 

Fine, we can disagree about Cam because we clearly do. If Cam didn't have his dual threat ability, he'd be a below average QB. He's just not consistently accurate enough as a passer. All my opinion, of course.

 

And I'm sorry, but I just think your assessment of Taylor is extreme hyperbole.

[Gugny]

 

I never understood the point of trolling, but some people take to it like mother's milk.......

 

How the hell is what I said trolling? I called a career backup, who has been wildly unsuccessful in his two years as a starter, a future backup. I cited how he holds the ball too long. Statistically, that is a fact - he holds it the longest in the league.

 

So tell me, friend, other than the fact that you clearly disagree (whilst offering no substance), how do you feel I am trolling you?

[BuffaloHokie13]

This was a fun watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLMr4nwwRlI

[Gugny]

Like I said, he thought EJ Manuel was a good QB.

 

Yes, I did. And I was wrong. And I admitted it.

 

Everyone has been wrong about players' talent-level.

 

But hot damn. You got me!!! Dag nabbit.

[transplantbillsfan]

 

How the hell is what I said trolling? I called a career backup, who has been wildly unsuccessful in his two years as a starter, a future backup. I cited how he holds the ball too long. Statistically, that is a fact - he holds it the longest in the league.

 

So tell me, friend, other than the fact that you clearly disagree (whilst offering no substance), how do you feel I am trolling you?

It's far from a statistical fact that "he stays in the pocket for about 1 second." That might not be malicious on your part. But it's a pretty wildly hyperbolic statement and might be viewed as trolling. Edited July 12, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[Kirby Jackson]

 

How the hell is what I said trolling? I called a career backup, who has been wildly unsuccessful in his two years as a starter, a future backup. I cited how he holds the ball too long. Statistically, that is a fact - he holds it the longest in the league.

 

So tell me, friend, other than the fact that you clearly disagree (whilst offering no substance), how do you feel I am trolling you?

How can you be "wildly unsuccessful" but have a 15-14 record despite having the 28th DVOA defense? That's the hyperbole that has me constantly defending the guy. He's by miles the best that we've had since at least Bledsoe. He has 47 TDs and 12 INTs in 29 games. That's not wildly unsuccessful. You defended EJ until the end and he had 23 TDs and 15 INTs in 28 appearances (17 starts).

 

It really is odd that everyone that took EJ to their grave has decided Taylor isn't good. He's pretty good. It's okay that you guys were wrong a few years ago but instead of moving on the hard feelings are still there. It's distorted that whole group's reality. I'd bet that 80% of the negative TT comments on here come from those that believed EJ should have been the QB. Instead of objectively viewing it and saying "he's pretty good" people are encouraged to throw out the stats and use feeling to judge. He's led a top 10 DVOA offense in back to back years despite the injuries. He's by no metric "wildly unsuccessful." This is really starting to get old. The numbers don't lie. He's a decent starting QB nothing more, nothing less.

 

We are all wrong. I'm taking Da'Rick to my grave. This isn't directed at anyone in particular but you know who you are. If you want to argue that we could use an upgrade it's a great conversation. Pretending he's like the other guys we've run out over the last decade is patently false no matter how many times it's "spoken into existence." Check the hyperbole on both side and let's have a discussion.

[Gugny]

How can you be "wildly unsuccessful" but have a 15-14 record despite having the 28th DVOA defense? That's the hyperbole that has me constantly defending the guy. He's by miles the best that we've had since at least Bledsoe. He has 47 TDs and 12 INTs in 29 games. That's not wildly unsuccessful. You defended EJ until the end and he had 23 TDs and 15 INTs in 28 appearances (17 starts).

 

It really is odd that everyone that took EJ to their grave has decided Taylor isn't good. He's pretty good. It's okay that you guys were wrong a few years ago but instead of moving on the hard feelings are still there. It's distorted that whole group's reality. I'd bet that 80% of the negative TT comments on here come from those that believed EJ should have been the QB. Instead of objectively viewing it and saying "he's pretty good" people are encouraged to throw out the stats and use feeling to judge. He's led a top 10 DVOA offense in back to back years despite the injuries. He's by no metric "wildly unsuccessful." This is really starting to get old. The numbers don't lie. He's a decent starting QB nothing more, nothing less.

 

We are all wrong. I'm taking Da'Rick to my grave. This isn't directed at anyone in particular but you know who you are. If you want to argue that we could use an upgrade it's a great conversation. Pretending he's like the other guys we've run out over the last decade is patently false no matter how many times it's "spoken into existence." Check the hyperbole on both side and let's have a discussion.

 

Guilty of hyperbole.

 

But I am convinced that Tyrod Taylor is not going to be the Buffalo Bills' starter after this season and I am convinced that this is the last season he will begin as the starter on any NFL team.

 

I think he's an incredible athlete who can throw a sweet deep ball and is a legitimate threat on the field when he runs.

 

To me, however, it's about two things: can he do the important things (being decisive, accurately passing over the middle of the field) consistently - and - can he do it when the Bills need him to do it most.

 

From what I've seen over the past two seasons, the answer to those two questions is a resounding "no."

 

Is he good? Yes. Is he good enough? Not by a long shot.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

Sorry, but go look at Vick's career. His career was over because of age. You act like his best years were his first couple years except they were his first couple years and they weren't. If you're saying that by the time teams saw about 100 games worth of film on tape that was what ended his career because by then he was figured out, that's a stretch. Vick played at a very high level in 2010 with the Eagles. Vick was pretty special. Taylor's not there, but he's definitely closer to the athlete Vick was than pretty much anyone I can think of at QB before or since.

 

Fine, we can disagree about Cam because we clearly do. If Cam didn't have his dual threat ability, he'd be a below average QB. He's just not consistently accurate enough as a passer. All my opinion, of course.

 

And I'm sorry, but I just think your assessment of Taylor is extreme hyperbole.

Cam Newton set rookie passing records for qbs and passed for 4,000 yards. He's also a monster and has dominated football on almost every level he's been on.

How can you be "wildly unsuccessful" but have a 15-14 record despite having the 28th DVOA defense? That's the hyperbole that has me constantly defending the guy. He's by miles the best that we've had since at least Bledsoe. He has 47 TDs and 12 INTs in 29 games. That's not wildly unsuccessful. You defended EJ until the end and he had 23 TDs and 15 INTs in 28 appearances (17 starts).

 

It really is odd that everyone that took EJ to their grave has decided Taylor isn't good. He's pretty good. It's okay that you guys were wrong a few years ago but instead of moving on the hard feelings are still there. It's distorted that whole group's reality. I'd bet that 80% of the negative TT comments on here come from those that believed EJ should have been the QB. Instead of objectively viewing it and saying "he's pretty good" people are encouraged to throw out the stats and use feeling to judge. He's led a top 10 DVOA offense in back to back years despite the injuries. He's by no metric "wildly unsuccessful." This is really starting to get old. The numbers don't lie. He's a decent starting QB nothing more, nothing less.

 

We are all wrong. I'm taking Da'Rick to my grave. This isn't directed at anyone in particular but you know who you are. If you want to argue that we could use an upgrade it's a great conversation. Pretending he's like the other guys we've run out over the last decade is patently false no matter how many times it's "spoken into existence." Check the hyperbole on both side and let's have a discussion.

1) I was big fan of EJ because of spending a 1st round pick, his size, the way he carried himself, and the way some fans crapped on him right away. His development was garbage but ultimately, he wasn't good enough. It has nothing to do with my evaluation of Tyrod, who is very likable and hard working.

 

2) I'm not a fan of smaller qbs who rely on their legs. History shows you don't consistently win with those guys. If Tyrod has EJ's size, I would feel a little better about his chances.

 

3) I hate these advance stats. I know what I watch. It's an inconsistent offense that has some good players and a good oline. They can make big plays but they also can be painful when they aren't on. They drag for halves. Rex sucked but stats like the offense falling apart in Miami and Oakland aren't available.

 

4) I've made a lot of excuses for shortcomings of Bills qbs. I think Tyrod is about as good of a qb as they had in awhile. But when I watch him compared to good NFL qbs, I feel like we are playing a different level of football,

[Gugny]

Cam Newton set rookie passing records for qbs and passed for 4,000 yards. He's also a monster and has dominated football on almost every level he's been on.

 

1) I was big fan of EJ because of spending a 1st round pick, his size, the way he carried himself, and the way some fans crapped on him right away. His development was garbage but ultimately, he wasn't good enough. It has nothing to do with my evaluation of Tyrod, who is very likable and hard working.

 

2) I'm not a fan of smaller qbs who rely on their legs. History shows you don't consistently win with those guys. If Tyrod has EJ's size, I would feel a little better about his chances.

 

3) I hate these advance stats. I know what I watch. It's an inconsistent offense that has some good players and a good oline. They can make big plays but they also can be painful when they aren't on. They drag for halves. Rex sucked but stats like the offense falling apart in Miami and Oakland aren't available.

 

4) I've made a lot of excuses for shortcomings of Bills qbs. I think Tyrod is about as good of a qb as they had in awhile. But when I watch him compared to good NFL qbs, I feel like we are playing a different level of football,

 

Very well said.

 

Not to harp on EJ, but the main reason I believed in him longer than many was due to how Marrone handled him AND how Rex never gave him a chance. Not to mention, how EJ looked far better than Tyrod in both practices and preseason games against 1st/2nd string defenses. But yes ... in the end, I had to admit that he simply wasn't good enough. I guess I just got there more quickly with Tyrod.

 

Anyway, all four of your bullets capture exactly how I feel about Tyrod Taylor. Well said.

[grb]

 

Not to mention, how EJ looked far better than Tyrod in both practices and preseason games against 1st/2nd string defenses.

 

?????????

[Gugny]

 

?????????

 

If you disagree, you didn't watch the games. Throughout the "competition," Tyrod was outplayed in literally every aspect. Does that mean EJ was good? No. It means they both sucked, but Rex had his mind made up before the bullschit competition. Like I said, if you disagree, that proves you didn't watch and you're just being a sheep. I'll leave it at that.

 

So come back with some examples instead of a bunch of punctuation marks. You like to throw the label "troll" around, but the only thing you've contributed is !@#$ing baseless name-calling and punctuation.

 

Bring more or go home. You're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

[#34fan]

EJ received the WORST introduction to pro football I've ever seen a rookie get.... He was SO under-coached, and under-prepared.....

 

I wonder if things would have been different without Marracket...

[Gugny]

EJ received the WORST introduction to pro football I've ever seen a rookie get.... He was SO under-coached, and under-prepared.....

 

I wonder if things would have been different without Marracket...

 

I honestly don't think so. I think EJ is a great kid with a great work ethic (like Tyrod), but he just lacked "it," (like Tyrod). BUT ... he did get a raw deal from day one. There is no doubt about that. I think, had he remained the starter, that the Bills still would have been around .500 for the past two years. They're simply not that far apart, as far as overall effectiveness is concerned. I think Tyrod's got more athletic ability. But I think EJ is smarter. But Fitz proved that being smart is only one piece to the puzzle. There's a reason there aren't that many great QBs in the league at any given time. It's not easy.

[Figster]

Cam Newton set rookie passing records for qbs and passed for 4,000 yards. He's also a monster and has dominated football on almost every level he's been on.

 

1) I was big fan of EJ because of spending a 1st round pick, his size, the way he carried himself, and the way some fans crapped on him right away. His development was garbage but ultimately, he wasn't good enough. It has nothing to do with my evaluation of Tyrod, who is very likable and hard working.

 

2) I'm not a fan of smaller qbs who rely on their legs. History shows you don't consistently win with those guys. If Tyrod has EJ's size, I would feel a little better about his chances.

 

3) I hate these advance stats. I know what I watch. It's an inconsistent offense that has some good players and a good oline. They can make big plays but they also can be painful when they aren't on. They drag for halves. Rex sucked but stats like the offense falling apart in Miami and Oakland aren't available.

 

4) I've made a lot of excuses for shortcomings of Bills qbs. I think Tyrod is about as good of a qb as they had in awhile. But when I watch him compared to good NFL qbs, I feel like we are playing a different level of football,

...stop...

 

...just stop...

[grb]

So come back with some examples instead of a bunch of punctuation marks. You like to throw the label "troll" around, but the only thing you've contributed is !@#$ing baseless name-calling and punctuation.

 

 

Five points :

 

(1) If you look to deny the accusation your perpetual Taylor Snit is rooted in unresolved emotional trauma re EJ, this mythic take on ancient history just ain't the way to do it

 

(2) There was no conspiracy. Taylor won the staring job. Who supports your ludicrous tale EJ out-performed Taylor in camp? No one. That meme exists only in your head.

 

(3) Though I can think of no more useless a waste of time than try and hunt it up, I know somewhere is a study of points production in the 2015 preseason - per drive, EJ vs TT. The latter won. If you want to waste your life chasing phantasmical dreams, you're welcome to go dig up that data. I'm due back on the planet Earth.

 

(4) What was said during the 2015 preseason was Taylor ran a smoother offense, but didn't have EJ's beautiful deep ball. That one was repeated over & over & over. Kinda funny in retrospect, but there you have it.

 

(5) Unless you are going all tinfoil-hat-crazy to say the job was "stolen" from EJ, why even bring up this wacky revisionism? Taylor has outperformed EJ since in real games. The coaches were right. The reporters were right. The press accounts from training camp were right. The decision on the starter was right.

Edited July 12, 2017 by grb

[Gugny]

 

Five points :

 

(1) If you look to deny the accusation your perpetual Taylor Snit is rooted in unresolved emotions re EJ, this mythic take on ancient history just ain't the way to do it

 

(2) There was no conspiracy. Taylor won the staring job. Who supports your ludicrous tale EJ out-performed Taylor in camp? No one. That meme exists only in your head.

 

(3) Though I can think of no more useless a waste of time than try and hunt it up, I know somewhere is a study of points production in the 2015 preseason - per drive, EJ vs TT. The later won. If you want to waste your life chasing phantasmical dreams, you're welcome to go dig up that data. I'm due back on the planet Earth.

 

(4) What was said during the 2015 preseason was Taylor ran a smoother offense, but didn't have EJ's beautiful deep ball. That one was repeatedy over & over & over. Kinda funny in retrospect, but there you have it.

 

(5) Unless you ARE going tinfoil-hat to say the job was "stolen" from EJ, why even bring up this wacky revisionism? Taylor has outperformed EJ since in real games. The coaches were right. The reporters were right. The press accounts from training camp were right. The decision on the starter was right.

 

1. You missed every point I made and somehow interpreted that I said EJ was "robbed" of the starting job.

 

2. Google better big boy words next time.

 

3. You still provided nothing of substance.

 

4. The decision on the starter yielded us no playoffs and mid-first round picks. Yawn.

 

5. I usually equate performing with contributing to wins. Unless you're talking about McCoy, you're off.

 

6. Goodnight, sweetheart. I love you.

[grb]

 

1. You missed every point I made and somehow interpreted that I said EJ was "robbed" of the starting job.

 

...........

 

6. Goodnight, sweetheart. I love you.

 

Gugny : "EJ looked far better than Tyrod in both practices and preseason games against 1st/2nd string defenses"

Gugny : "You missed every point I made and somehow interpreted that I said EJ was "robbed" of the starting job"

 

Could you try and be coherent?

I'll grant you the right to operate with anti-facts - existing in your head alone - but can't you at least be consistent while fantasizing?

Edited July 12, 2017 by grb

[transplantbillsfan]

 

If you disagree, you didn't watch the games. Throughout the "competition," Tyrod was outplayed in literally every aspect. Does that mean EJ was good? No. It means they both sucked, but Rex had his mind made up before the bullschit competition. Like I said, if you disagree, that proves you didn't watch and you're just being a sheep. I'll leave it at that.

 

So come back with some examples instead of a bunch of punctuation marks. You like to throw the label "troll" around, but the only thing you've contributed is !@#$ing baseless name-calling and punctuation.

 

Bring more or go home. You're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

Whoa whoa whoa... I fully admit to being a former EJ guy who's now a Tyrod guy, and you can ask the former BBMBers because I was still that during that 3 way competition, so I don't buy into whoever had the notion that if you liked EJ, you don't like Tyrod. But you're showing some serious bias here and it's a little revealing.

 

You talk about the preseason games as if that's all the QB competition consisted of, which it didn't. Yes, EJ looked good from our perspective because of all those "wow plays" we all so yearned for in his first couple years. We wanted him to let it loose and he did and it resulted in serious chunk yards and a handful of TDs. We love that as fans, but I doubt those are the plays that win a QB the starting job.

 

Taylor was good in those games too, but in executing more of the NFL passes that are the bread and butter of an NFL offense. Less gaudy numbers, but I doubt the coaches cared about numbers in the preseason.

 

And there's your entire neglect of practice, where coaches do most of their evaluation. Lots of accounts about Taylor playing really well and turning heads that summer. As for EJ...

 

This was the summer of the hospitality tent incident, remember?

 

I honestly don't think so. I think EJ is a great kid with a great work ethic (like Tyrod), but he just lacked "it," (like Tyrod). BUT ... he did get a raw deal from day one. There is no doubt about that. I think, had he remained the starter, that the Bills still would have been around .500 for the past two years. They're simply not that far apart, as far as overall effectiveness is concerned. I think Tyrod's got more athletic ability. But I think EJ is smarter. But Fitz proved that being smart is only one piece to the puzzle. There's a reason there aren't that many great QBs in the league at any given time. It's not easy.

Good God Edited July 12, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[moshermw]

Whoa whoa whoa... I fully admit to being a former EJ guy who's now a Tyrod guy, and you can ask the former BBMBers because I was still that during that 3 way competition, but you're showing some serious bias here and it's a little revealing.

 

You talk about the preseason games as if that's all the QB competition consisted of, which it didn't. Yes, EJ looked good from our perspective because of all those "wow plays" we all so yearned for in his first couple years. We wanted him to let it loose and he did and it resulted in serious chunk yards and a handful of TDs. We love that as fans, but I doubt those are the plays that win a QB the starting job.

 

Taylor was good in those games too, but in executing more of the NFL passes that are the bread and butter of an NFL offense. Less gaudy numbers, but I doubt the coaches cared about numbers in the preseason.

 

And there's your entire neglect of practice, where coaches do most of their evaluation. Lots of accounts about Taylor playing really well and turning heads that summer. As for EJ...

 

This was the summer of the hospitality tent incident, remember?

Been lurking or missing for a while but pointed out in 2015 - repeatedly - that Tyrod beat EJ and Ponder at VT at a 4-0 clip, including the ACCCG.

 

There was never a doubt in my mind that he would beat out Cassel and EJ.

 

As an admitted TT homer, however, I am really open minded this season to the true make or break. Compared to what most on this board thought he could do when he first was introduced, he's already shattered all but what the true homers (BuffaloHokie13 - this means you, too) knew he could do.

 

That said, he will still not surprise me if he can shred the league this season with quick passes and continue to gash with 20+ yd runs. Bills will finally have a real OC and supporting cast to take some load off of just him. He's proved he can lead and and carry an offense almost by himself - clearly not anyone's preferred MO. Playoffs were 1 game away both seasons.

 

Navigating playoffs and winning the Super Bowl (National Title) is the only thing that would resemble new ground for TT to take. Am admittedly less confident in that for 2017. If it doesn't happen, all anyone ever wants is a fair judgement if it doesn't go down perfectly.

 

It would be very easy to step way backwards at QB if "the passing game" is the scapegoat reason that a Lombardi Trophy doesn't come to Buffalo in 2017.

 

I don't know how I would act if the Bills actually made the Super Bowl and were up 28-3 in the 3rd quarter and lost in OT like the Falcons just did.

 

Crazy to hope that doesn't happen, yes ? no ? Ryan's fault ?

 

Clearly time for bed ..

[Figster]

Been lurking or missing for a while but pointed out in 2015 - repeatedly - that Tyrod beat EJ and Ponder at VT at a 4-0 clip, including the ACCCG.

 

There was never a doubt in my mind that he would beat out Cassel and EJ.

 

As an admitted TT homer, however, I am really open minded this season to the true make or break. Compared to what most on this board thought he could do when he first was introduced, he's already shattered all but what the true homers (BuffaloHokie13 - this means you, too) knew he could do.

 

That said, he will still not surprise me if he can shred the league this season with quick passes and continue to gash with 20+ yd runs. Bills will finally have a real OC and supporting cast to take some load off of just him. He's proved he can lead and and carry an offense almost by himself - clearly not anyone's preferred MO. Playoffs were 1 game away both seasons.

 

Navigating playoffs and winning the Super Bowl (National Title) is the only thing that would resemble new ground for TT to take. Am admittedly less confident in that for 2017. If it doesn't happen, all anyone ever wants is a fair judgement if it doesn't go down perfectly.

 

It would be very easy to step way backwards at QB if "the passing game" is the scapegoat reason that a Lombardi Trophy doesn't come to Buffalo in 2017.

 

I don't know how I would act if the Bills actually made the Super Bowl and were up 28-3 in the 3rd quarter and lost in OT like the Falcons just did.

 

Crazy to hope that doesn't happen, yes ? no ? Ryan's fault ?

 

Clearly time for bed ..

Nice read...

 

... and good question...

 

...I blame BB...

 

...and Tom Brady...