Kirby Jackson Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) No way! You're giving the Cavs way too much leverage that they don't really have. Kyrie is demanding a trade. Look at what OKC had to give up for PG, and all he said is he wants to test FA when his contract ends. The Cavs will be lucky to get 2 starters for Kyrie. Paul George was about to be a free agent and said "I want to go to LA." Kyrie has 2 years left, on a great contract and just wants to be a centerpiece. I personally think that he's a little overrated but he can score. His return will be a lot better than George, Boogie or even Butler. The Cavs still hold the cards here. Teams were scared off that George would leave. They are totally different situations. I'd bet my life that they get more than Oladipo & Sabonis.The Cavs are going to get at least 2 starters, with at least one of them being a 20 point a game guy and the other a young former lottery pick. It's just a matter of what the Cavs want to do. Are you better if you get Melo and 2 firsts? I don't think so. The Cavs are trying to get guys that keep them in contention this year and not leave the future bare if James leaves again. Bledsoe and Josh Jackson maybe? That was on the table during the George sweepstakes. If I were Cleveland I would chase a Milwaukee deal of Middleton, Parker and Maker. It's going to be interesting but the price tag will be high. Edited July 23, 2017 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Paul George was about to be a free agent and said "I want to go to LA." Kyrie has 2 years left, on a great contract and just wants to be a centerpiece. I personally think that he's a little overrated but he can score. His return will be a lot better than George, Boogie or even Butler. The Cavs still hold the cards here. Teams were scared off that George would leave. They are totally different situations. I'd bet my life that they get more than Oladipo & Sabonis.The Cavs are going to get at least 2 starters, with at least one of them being a 20 point a game guy and the other a young former lottery pick. It's just a matter of what the Cavs want to do. Are you better if you get Melo and 2 firsts? I don't think so. The Cavs are trying to get guys that keep them in contention this year and not leave the future bare if James leaves again. Bledsoe and Josh Jackson maybe? That was on the table during the George sweepstakes. If I were Cleveland I would chase a Milwaukee deal of Middleton, Parker and Maker. It's going to be interesting but the price tag will be high. The Cavs hold more cards but not enough. They simply cannot stand pat and refuse to trade Kyrie. They have to deal him. Which drives down his market value. The Cavs would not be better next year if it was Kyrie versus Melo on their team. But they can't keep Kyrie. That's not the choice they are making. It's Melo versus Bledsoe versus etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 The Cavs hold more cards but not enough. They simply cannot stand pat and refuse to trade Kyrie. They have to deal him. Which drives down his market value. The Cavs would not be better next year if it was Kyrie versus Melo on their team. But they can't keep Kyrie. That's not the choice they are making. It's Melo versus Bledsoe versus etc. I think it's Melo AND Bledsoe from the sound of it (with some picks coming from the Knicks or Suns depending on where Kyrie goes). They do have to trade him but they can trade him to any of 29 teams. That's the difference. The market for George was the Lakers and any team willing to risk retaining him (Cleveland, OKC, maybe Houston). George tried to do the Pacers a favor by telling them that he was going to leave but it ended up eliminating the competition in the market. That isn't the case with Irving. Basically, teams will submit their offers and the Cavs will go through them. Some will end up out and others will remain in play. The negotiations will then start. The Cavs aren't backed into a corner in that he has 2 years left. As an example the Bucks offer that I threw out would give the Bucks their 2nd star and they'd still keep Giannis and Brogdon. Kyrie, Brogdon, Giannis, Monroe and Henson is pretty good (especially in the East). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) I think it's Melo AND Bledsoe from the sound of it (with some picks coming from the Knicks or Suns depending on where Kyrie goes). They do have to trade him but they can trade him to any of 29 teams. That's the difference. The market for George was the Lakers and any team willing to risk retaining him (Cleveland, OKC, maybe Houston). George tried to do the Pacers a favor by telling them that he was going to leave but it ended up eliminating the competition in the market. That isn't the case with Irving. Basically, teams will submit their offers and the Cavs will go through them. Some will end up out and others will remain in play. The negotiations will then start. The Cavs aren't backed into a corner in that he has 2 years left. As an example the Bucks offer that I threw out would give the Bucks their 2nd star and they'd still keep Giannis and Brogdon. Kyrie, Brogdon, Giannis, Monroe and Henson is pretty good (especially in the East). That's a hindsight argument. The market was also 29 teams for PG. Kyrie listed the 4 teams he'd like to go to. If you aren't one of those teams, what are your chances of retaining him? It's more similar than you think. The Cavs have a gun to their head. They can't keep him. Edited July 23, 2017 by jmc12290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 That's a hindsight argument. The market was also 29 teams for PG. Kyrie listed the 4 teams he'd like to go to. If you aren't one of those teams, what are your chances of retaining him? It's more similar than you think. The Cavs have a gun to their head. They can't keep him. No it wasn't!! No team was trading for George after that. There are hundreds of reports on that. OKC got in because there was so little competition. They figured if it goes well they can win and re-sign him. That may or may not end up to be true. There were NOT many teams involved despite the quality of player that George is. He listed 4 teams, but as has been reported, that's irrelevant. He has 2 years and a favorable contract. It's a lot different by NBA standards. George wanted 1 team. I guess that the argument can be made that the Butler situation is similar but the Bulls wanted to start over. They got a pretty good package back. The Kyrie situation is WAY closer to Butler than to George or Boogie (the Kings are incompetent). If you think that anything less than Melo and multiple firsts is coming back, prepare to be surprised. It's not a matter of the value that they are going to get back. No one is discussing or debating that anywhere that I've seen. There is high demand. The interesting part is do the Cavs take a package of young players/assets or do they go a more veteran route and try keep LeBron? That's the debate. My guess is that they go the veteran route with Bledsoe, Melo and a 1st and LeBron leaves anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) No it wasn't!! No team was trading for George after that. There are hundreds of reports on that. OKC got in because there was so little competition. They figured if it goes well they can win and re-sign him. That may or may not end up to be true. There were NOT many teams involved despite the quality of player that George is. He listed 4 teams, but as has been reported, that's irrelevant. He has 2 years and a favorable contract. It's a lot different by NBA standards. George wanted 1 team. I guess that the argument can be made that the Butler situation is similar but the Bulls wanted to start over. They got a pretty good package back. The Kyrie situation is WAY closer to Butler than to George or Boogie (the Kings are incompetent). If you think that anything less than Melo and multiple firsts is coming back, prepare to be surprised. It's not a matter of the value that they are going to get back. No one is discussing or debating that anywhere that I've seen. There is high demand. The interesting part is do the Cavs take a package of young players/assets or do they go a more veteran route and try keep LeBron? That's the debate. My guess is that they go the veteran route with Bledsoe, Melo and a 1st and LeBron leaves anyways. That's 1 more year than PG. PG also has the option, so possibly the same amount of years. You're acting like Milwaukee has a guarantee that Kyrie won't up and leave in 2 years. They don't. He doesn't want to go there, he's said so. Why does it matter when PG says it but doesn't when Kyrie does? What guarantee does a team like the Heat have if they miss the playoffs twice, he won't go to the Spurs like he wanted to at 27? The Butler trade was bad. Are you serious? They got Zach LaVine, an NBA starter, a prospect who averaged 3.8 PPG in his rookie year, and moved up 9 spots in the draft to 7, not top 5 or 3. All for a top 10 player in the NBA? If you think that was a good haul, Melo/Bledsoe and multiple firsts would be the Herschel Walker trade of the NBA. You're going to be shocked at what they get for Kyrie. It will be two starters (not top 10 at their position starters) and a pick, at best. Edited July 23, 2017 by jmc12290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) That's 1 more year than PG. PG also has the option, so possibly the same amount of years. You're acting like Milwaukee has a guarantee that Kyrie won't up and leave in 2 years. They don't. He doesn't want to go there, he's said so. Why does it matter when PG says it but doesn't when Kyrie does? What guarantee does a team like the Heat have if they miss the playoffs twice, he won't go to the Spurs like he wanted to at 27? The Butler trade was bad. Are you serious? They got Zach LaVine, an NBA starter, a prospect who averaged 3.8 PPG in his rookie year, and moved up 9 spots in the draft to 7, not top 5 or 3. All for a top 10 player in the NBA? If you think that was a good haul, Melo/Bledsoe and multiple firsts would be the Herschel Walker trade of the NBA. You're going to be shocked at what they get for Kyrie. It will be two starters (not top 10 at their position starters) and a pick, at best. No one has a guarantee whether or not a guy will leave. George told everyone "I want to go to LA." That wasn't a secret. Kyrie said "I want to lead a team." Now there is probably more too it because he wouldn't be the best player on 2 of the 4 teams he asked for. Either way he has no leverage. Those teams will also be able to offer him a lot more money than anyone else so it certainly helps them. That wasn't a factor with George because he didn't care. He wanted the Lakers. The Thunder didn't care because they gave up a garbage contract and a young role player. It was worth the gamble and especially a good move to get out from the Oladipo deal. I think that you are missing the importance of contracts in the NBA. That determines everything (like in baseball). LaVine has an all-star ceiling that he isn't far from (despite the injury), Dunn is 1 year removed from being considered the 2nd best player in the draft and a shooter. They have length and defense AND are all on rookie contracts. With a cap at $99M would you rather have Jrue Holiday at $24M or LaVine at $3.2M? When making a move in the NBA you want young, controllable assets while gaining flexibility. That's how you build in the NBA. The Bulls did well in that deal. I'd be happy to wager on the deal but not sure what would constitute a win. I think Bledsoe and Josh Jackson (which was on the table for Kevin Love) would be a solid haul. Bledsoe/Melo and a pick would be a decent option for this year but a lesser haul. The Milwaukee deal would be a home run. A Boogie for Kyrie trade makes sense but would not like it as a Pelicans fan. The Cavs are going to use this as a chance to reshape their roster. They are going to force guys like Shumpert and Frye out the door to facilitate this deal. It's just a matter of "do we try to take one more shot at GS or do we try to protect ourselves if LeBron leaves?" Think about the Nets - Celtics deal at the time that it took place. The Nets were trying to win now so punted on the future. The Celtics were ready to start over and took all of those assets. The Cavs have 1 year of LeBron left. If they turned Kyrie into 2 good players that can score (15-20 each) and defend on the perimeter they are a better team. They gor smoked because they couldn't switch against GS. In the world of positionless basketball you need to be able to guard multiple guys. If the Cavs turned Kyrie into that Bucks package, they'd have LeBron, Parker, and Middleton to do that (although Parker isn't a great defender). That's how Boston has given them a hard time. Kyrie's value against GS is his shotmaking ability. You aren't going to outscore them anyways so you need to do something differently. Option 2 is to say "we aren't beating GS next year anyways." Let's try to get a few young studs and draft picks and reload. They will clear salary as well. That will give them a chance next year to either sign LeBron and 1-2 other stars or to let him walk. If he walks it's safe to assume Cleveland will have turned Love into assets and have loads of cap space and young talent. It just depends on what Cleveland wants to do but they aren't backed into a corner. They hold the leverage. Edited July 23, 2017 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 Have the Warriors obtained James harden yet, so they can jump around and boast about all the obstacles they overcame to win the title next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20144300/zach-lowe-kyrie-irving-cleveland-cavaliers-potential-trades-nba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 No one has a guarantee whether or not a guy will leave. George told everyone "I want to go to LA." That wasn't a secret. Kyrie said "I want to lead a team." Now there is probably more too it because he wouldn't be the best player on 2 of the 4 teams he asked for. Either way he has no leverage. Those teams will also be able to offer him a lot more money than anyone else so it certainly helps them. That wasn't a factor with George because he didn't care. He wanted the Lakers. The Thunder didn't care because they gave up a garbage contract and a young role player. It was worth the gamble and especially a good move to get out from the Oladipo deal. I think that you are missing the importance of contracts in the NBA. That determines everything (like in baseball). LaVine has an all-star ceiling that he isn't far from (despite the injury), Dunn is 1 year removed from being considered the 2nd best player in the draft and a shooter. They have length and defense AND are all on rookie contracts. With a cap at $99M would you rather have Jrue Holiday at $24M or LaVine at $3.2M? When making a move in the NBA you want young, controllable assets while gaining flexibility. That's how you build in the NBA. The Bulls did well in that deal. I'd be happy to wager on the deal but not sure what would constitute a win. I think Bledsoe and Josh Jackson (which was on the table for Kevin Love) would be a solid haul. Bledsoe/Melo and a pick would be a decent option for this year but a lesser haul. The Milwaukee deal would be a home run. A Boogie for Kyrie trade makes sense but would not like it as a Pelicans fan. The Cavs are going to use this as a chance to reshape their roster. They are going to force guys like Shumpert and Frye out the door to facilitate this deal. It's just a matter of "do we try to take one more shot at GS or do we try to protect ourselves if LeBron leaves?" Think about the Nets - Celtics deal at the time that it took place. The Nets were trying to win now so punted on the future. The Celtics were ready to start over and took all of those assets. The Cavs have 1 year of LeBron left. If they turned Kyrie into 2 good players that can score (15-20 each) and defend on the perimeter they are a better team. They gor smoked because they couldn't switch against GS. In the world of positionless basketball you need to be able to guard multiple guys. If the Cavs turned Kyrie into that Bucks package, they'd have LeBron, Parker, and Middleton to do that (although Parker isn't a great defender). That's how Boston has given them a hard time. Kyrie's value against GS is his shotmaking ability. You aren't going to outscore them anyways so you need to do something differently. Option 2 is to say "we aren't beating GS next year anyways." Let's try to get a few young studs and draft picks and reload. They will clear salary as well. That will give them a chance next year to either sign LeBron and 1-2 other stars or to let him walk. If he walks it's safe to assume Cleveland will have turned Love into assets and have loads of cap space and young talent. It just depends on what Cleveland wants to do but they aren't backed into a corner. They hold the leverage. LaVine has 1 more year on his rookie deal then will command a 3 year $68M deal. It's not like he's locked down for 3 more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted July 25, 2017 Author Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) Kyrie is getting absolutely hammered by Cleveland fans and media. Apparently they have forgotten they wouldn't have a championship if it weren't for him. Eviscerated because he wants to leave a team that has been to three straight finals. Heaven forbid he prioritize his future over his past. Edited July 25, 2017 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Kyrie is getting absolutely hammered by Cleveland fans and media. Apparently they have forgotten they wouldn't have a championship if it weren't for him. Eviscerated because he wants to leave a team that has been to three straight finals. Heaven forbid he prioritize his future over his past. Well, if Kyrie stayed, would there be any doubt they make the Finals next year? He's definitely gotten his fair share of flak, but I'm not sure how unwarranted it all is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted July 25, 2017 Author Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) Well, if Kyrie stayed, would there be any doubt they make the Finals next year? He's definitely gotten his fair share of flak, but I'm not sure how unwarranted it all is. he may be sacrificing one more year of finals but he's 25 not 35. they aren't good enough to win in the finals this year, and most believe the window will be closed as Lebron leaves after this year. That's why he wants out now - he knows once the Cavs know Lebron is gone, they won't trade him. And he has the next 10 years to consider, not one. Edited July 25, 2017 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) LaVine has 1 more year on his rookie deal then will command a 3 year $68M deal. It's not like he's locked down for 3 more years.Don't disagree at all but he has 2 years left. He may command a big deal but they will have a few years to see. I like him more than most and think that he can be a poor man's Westbrook. Edited July 25, 2017 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 he may be sacrificing one more year of finals but he's 25 not 35. they aren't good enough to win in the finals this year, and most believe the window will be closed as Lebron leaves after this year. That's why he wants out now - he knows once the Cavs know Lebron is gone, they won't trade him. And he has the next 10 years to consider, not one. Isn't he an FA in 2 years? So he could have a Finals appearance, one year where he sees what happens, then decide? Done disagree at all but he has 2 years left. He may command a big deal but they will have a few years to see. I like him more than most and think that he can be a poor man's Westbrook. With the last FA period, i think LaVine will probably command a big deal right at RFA. Which is after the 17-18 season, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) Isn't he an FA in 2 years? So he could have a Finals appearance, one year where he sees what happens, then decide? With the last FA period, i think LaVine will probably command a big deal right at RFA. Which is after the 17-18 season, isn't it? I think that you are right. He has been around a year longer than I thought. That changes things some for me then with him coming off of that injury. I definitely like that deal a little less for the Bulls now. Still a decent haul but it's really 2 rookie contracts and a guy with a ton of upside that is due for a big contract. He's probably looking at Otto Porter money. I love LaVine on his rookie deal and would really like him even at like $15M. I don't know about him at $20-$22M or whatever it is going to be. Edited July 25, 2017 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 I think that you are right. He has been around a year longer than I thought. That changes things some for me then with him coming off of that injury. It will be tougher to commit the big deal that he is likely to get. He's probably looking at Otto Porter money. Yeah he was the Wiggins/Parker class. 2014. That's why I didn't think the Bulls deal was all that great. Might've been all they could get, but LaVine's basically gonna have to take Butler's cap space for them to keep him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 @WarriorsPR Warriors have re-signed Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Andre Iguodala, Shaun Livingston, Zaza Pachulia & David West. @wojespn Portland has traded Allen Crabbe to Brooklyn for Andrew Nicholson, league sources tell ESPN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Allen Crabbe is one of the worst contracts in the NBA. Brooklyn is just absorbing those now to get assets. I wonder what they got with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Allen Crabbe is one of the worst contracts in the NBA. Brooklyn is just absorbing those now to get assets. I wonder what they got with it? Crabbe was ballin for Portland though. When is lebron gonna beat Kyrie up. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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