Dumb Carucci column...assessing QB position

[reddogblitz]

I haven't actually looked it up for this situation specifically, but generally when your defense is good they keep more games close enough for comebacks to happen. It's part of why Russ Wilson was able to make a comeback in that playoff game where he threw 4 picks to start the game, for instance. When your defense can keep you in it you just need one of your final drives to be successful. When they can't you make the go ahead score with 1:20 left on the clock and somehow end up in overtime anyway

Again, our D hasn't often done him favors, but he's had bookoo chances yet Hotrod comes up small in the big end of game come back moments.

 

For example, off the top of my head I came up with (over the last 2 years):

 

Washington

Eagles

Ravens

Patsies** (D held Patsies** to 14 points and got football back late)

Fish (several times)

Hawks

Pittsburgh

 

I'll give him Tennessee I guess. However, in that game after the go ahead score, Tennessee and us both got the football back twice.

 

I like Hotrod and hope he helps us break the drought this year. In fact, I am happy with his game in all respects, except coming up small when it counts most.

 

Anyone else remember when he fumbled twice on the same play last year on the last play in a comeback attempt?

[Hurricane]

JM with the obsessive crap again....

[mannc]

Name the team that gave him an offer. None did. No team made him an offer that matched his original contract. None. He took a reduction in salary and term in order to stay with the team he was with. That is a fact. How do you measure actual interest? By how much another team was willing to give him. Sure there were teams interesting in exploring him as an option. What materialized? No tangible offers were made. If there were then state which team made him an offer.

John, do you really not understand? Tyrod was still under contact with the Buffalo Bills. It would have been illegal for any team to even talk about making him an offer, much less actually making one. Any team doing so would have been subject to severe penalties, including the loss of a first round draft pick. The fact that "no team made him an offer" therefore proves absolutely nothing.

Edited June 29, 2017 by mannc

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Thanks for providing that information

 

It is an area that Tyrod needs to work on. Im not going to sit and make excuses about qualtiy of pass catchers or anything like that....he needs to get better in that area.

No problem J

 

17 seemed to be the most common denominator entering the 4th in those losses.

[mannc]

Contracts absolutely do reflect roster roles. If a team had strong enough feelings on a player it would be expressed through their contract offerings. You don't think that if a team that was serious in wanting him it would have offered him an appealing contract that would have enticed him to leave the Bills, an organization that demanded a reduction in salary to stay? No team gave him that type of offer.

 

The reason why TT wasn't released was because he took a reduction in salary. There were plenty of teams that could have theoretically offered him more if they wanted him. They didn't. TT for them, as for us, is a bridge qb. He had value up to a point. And what is telling is that no team, including the Bills, was foolish enough to go beyond the point with their offerings.

 

We can go in circles until the sun goes down. The reality is he stayed with his team under a reduced contract. Were other teams interested in him? Probably so. But that's not a big deal because marginal qbs have a value up to a point. And no team was going to go beyond a reasonable discount price to sign him. The market spoke and TT responded to it.

John, let's re-set this again. Tyrod was not a free agent. Any team that even discussed making him an offer would have been severely sanctioned by the league. Therefore, there was no "market", and therefore your entire post is based on a demonstrably false premise.

 

Your statement that the Bills would have released Tyrod if he had not agreed to a restructuring is also pure conjecture and not an established fact. It's possible that was the Bills' position during the negotiation, but it remains to be seen if they would have released him if he had not agreed to the restructure. I highly doubt it since their new coach clearly wanted to retain him and had no better short-term alternatives, but others may have a different opinion. Either way, it's not a fact and should not be presented as one.

[BuffaloHokie13]

Again, our D hasn't often done him favors, but he's had bookoo chances yet Hotrod comes up small in the big end of game come back moments.

 

For example, off the top of my head I came up with (over the last 2 years):

 

Washington

Eagles

Ravens

Patsies** (D held Patsies** to 14 points and got football back late)

Fish (several times)

Hawks

Pittsburgh

 

I'll give him Tennessee I guess. However, in that game after the go ahead score, Tennessee and us both got the football back twice.

 

I like Hotrod and hope he helps us break the drought this year. In fact, I am happy with his game in all respects, except coming up small when it counts most.

 

Anyone else remember when he fumbled twice on the same play last year on the last play in a comeback attempt?

Washington - The D allowed 35 points in the first 3 quarters. 5 of Washington's first 7 drives were TDs, one was a punt, and one was the end of the half.

Eagles - One of the 3 offensive letdowns that I outlined in another thread

Ravens - Another of the 3 O letdowns

Patsies** (D held Patsies** to 14 points and got football back late) - I'm guessing you mean the one where we held them to 20, not 14. That would be the 3rd of my offensive letdowns.

Fish (several times) - by several do you mean 2? Because we swept them in '15. And in week 16 we scored the go ahead TD with 1:20 left in the 4th. D couldn't hold, went to OT. First drive of OT we drive to FG range and the kick is missed.

Hawks - D allowed 28 points in the first half. Also, the end of the half was a major killer. Carp gets mugged, then makes kick but refs call it off for their own clock error, then he misses. That kick goes through and the final drive is for a FG to force OT instead of going for it on 4th & 15.

Pittsburgh - We scored TDs on both of our final 2 drives, dunno how many more in a row should be expected.

Edited June 29, 2017 by BuffaloHokie13

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Teams were not allowed to talk to Tyrod or his agent yet Teams could talk to Teams about trades, no?

[BuffaloHokie13]

Teams were not allowed to talk to Tyrod or his agent yet Teams could talk to Teams about trades, no?

Nobody was interested in a trade. Nobody suggested any team was.

[mannc]

Teams were not allowed to talk to Tyrod or his agent yet Teams could talk to Teams about trades, no?

That is my understanding.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Nobody was interested in a trade. Nobody suggested any team was.

Isn't that what we are talking about?

 

Teams interested in TT as their starter

[JM2009]

JM with the obsessive crap again....

yet ignore everyone else "obsessed" with the same topic.Only post again from you is mine-are you looking for my posts all day or something? That's being really obsessed. Where's your outrage for another TT thread-oh that;s right, it's only if I started it, not any other poster.

JM with the obsessive crap again....

I mean, two or three posters have a million posts today on the same "crap". Where's the outrage? They have it everyday of the week. Yet you focus only on mine.

[Hurricane]

yet ignore everyone else "obsessed" with the same topic.Only post again from you is mine-are you looking for my posts all day or something? That's being really obsessed. Where's your outrage for another TT thread-oh that;s right, it's only if I started it, not any other poster.

 

I mean, two or three posters have a million posts today on the same "crap". Where's the outrage? They have it everyday of the week. Yet you focus only on mine.

 

lol...

[NewEra]

Why is it that the few who will come up with any nonsense that they can come up with, against TT true or not, are EJ guys? EJ had plenty of opportunities. he failed. He had to be benched. He stinks.

When the game is on the line and the ball is in TTs hands, what happens? Do we win or do we lose. This has nothing to do with EJ. This has nothing to do with defense. This has nothing to do with missed FGs or the refs. Does TT put the ball in the end zone to win games? That's what people are saying. No one is saying EJ is better than TT. Those that point out that EJ has more game winning drives than TT aren't saying that EJ is better. They are saying that TT has had chances to win games and has failed. You continuously point out that people that hate on TT are EJ lovers. Is there such a thing as an EJ lover? You've called me an EJ lover and that has never been the case. I don't hate TT. I really like TT. I also have eyes and those eyes see him fail more often than not when the game is on the line. Yes....the defense fails too. Yes....the ST fails too. Yes....TT fails too. They have all failed. The thread and conversation isn't about the defense, ST or coaching. It's about TT. He fails more often than not when he needs to move the chains at the end of the game. That is what people are saying. If you think that that statement is false than I'm not sure you really watch Bills games. It's obvious to most that when the game is on the line and we have the ball with a chance to win the game either by moving the chains to keep the offense on the field or by scoring a TD. The job doesn't get done and we lose. Is the loss on TT? Not entirely, but it's a situation where the win could be on him....but it's not, because he didn't get it done

[ThrowingFitz]

Last years offense was built around the notion that the defense would be good enough to protect the lead. The offensive playbook wasnt designed to be explosive. It was all about ball control, not throwing for three hundred yards. Given that, Tyrod did what the coaches asked of him and more. The simple fact is, our defense didnt do what it was supposed to do and the offense was ill equiped to respond. That isnt a Tyrod problem, it was coaching. This is why Rex was let go.

[reddogblitz]

Eagles - One of the 3 offensive letdowns that I outlined in another thread

I didn't read your other post. If you want to post a link to it here, I'll look at it.

 

What I was referring to was when we got the Football back in the last 2:00 down by 3, Hotrod throws a pick. You can watch it at the link, bit it was butt ugly when we still had a chance to win.

 

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015121300/2015/REG14/bills@eagles?icampaign=GC_schedule_rr#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000603269&tab=analyze

 

 

Buffalo Bills at 01:49

1-10-BUF 31

(1:49) (Shotgun) 25-L.McCoy up the middle to BUF 38 for 7 yards (91-F.Cox).

2-3-BUF 38

(1:27) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-T.Taylor pass incomplete short right to 89-C.Gragg (98-C.Barwin).

3-3-BUF 38

(1:23) (Shotgun) PENALTY on BUF-79-J.Mills, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at BUF 38 - No Play.

3-8-BUF 33

(1:23) (Shotgun) 5-T.Taylor pass deep right intended for 10-R.Woods INTERCEPTED by 30-E.Reynolds [75-V.Curry] at PHI 33. 30-E.Reynolds to PHI 40 for 7 yards.

 

 

Patsies** (D held Patsies** to 14 points and got football back late) - I'm guessing you mean the one where we held them to 20, not 14. That would be the 3rd of my offensive letdowns.

You're right, 20. My bad.

 

Again not sure about the "letdown" business, but the D got a 3 and out giving us the football with 1:51 to play down by 6.

 

The Scoreless 4th quarter was the 1st scoreless quarter for Patsies** since 1st quarter of game 1 (week 11).

 

our drive sputters resulting in zero points.

 

 

Fish (several times) - by several do you mean 2? Because we swept them in '15. And in week 16 we scored the go ahead TD with 1:20 left in the 4th. D couldn't hold, went to OT. First drive of OT we drive to FG range and the kick is missed.

Yes, the second game primarily. While the things you say about the game are true, you left out the part where Hotrod had Goodwin open in the EZ in the first drive of OT, but overthrew him. If he hits that, we win.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016122400/2016/REG16/dolphins@bills?icampaign=GC_schedule_rr#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000765103&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

 

 

1-10-MIA 17

(11:31) (Shotgun) 25-L.McCoy up the middle to MIA 19 for -2 yards (56-D.Butler, 90-E.Mitchell).

2-12-MIA 19

(10:55) 22-R.Bush left guard to MIA 27 for -8 yards (46-N.Hewitt). End-around, pitch-back from T.Taylor.

3-20-MIA 27

(10:14) (Shotgun) 5-T.Taylor pass incomplete deep right to 88-M.Goodwin. Overthrown, receiver 3 yds. into end zone, along sideline.

4-20-MIA 27

(10:08) 2-D.Carpenter 45 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Right, Center-65-G.Sanborn, Holder-6-C.Schmidt.

 

 

Hawks - D allowed 28 points in the first half. Also, the end of the half was a major killer. Carp gets mugged, then makes kick but refs call it off for their own clock error, then he misses. That kick goes through and the final drive is for a FG to force OT instead of going for it on 4th & 15.

Again, all true. But the D did get a 3 and out getting Hotrod and the O the football back with 2:41 to play. 1st and goal from the 10.

 

A couple of sacks, whatever.

 

Then on 4th and goal, he had time and Woods in the EZ. A good pass, we win. The pass was not a good one.

 

In all of the games above, he had the game on his hands. If he delivers, especially the Fish and Hawks games, we win.

 

If we get both Hawks and Fish, we probably would have it ended it at 16.

 

Our whole team screwed up.

 

But, the QB had the most control and gets all the glory and the most money AND a chance.

 

If Hotrod can come through in these situations, we will have a very good season.

 

Why do you keep making excuses for this hole in his game?

 

 

Go Hotrod

Go BILLS!!!

Edited June 30, 2017 by reddogblitz

[GunnerBill]

The reason Tyrod is still here is also very simple. His decision to accept the contract reduction after his agent had temperature tested the market was based on three factors:

 

1. Chance to start in 2017;

2. Money;

3. Chance to play for a competitive team in 2017.

 

Most of the teams interested in giving him #1 and #2 could not, in his mind, offer #3 (see 49ers, Jets and Browns). The other options that might have offered #3 were probably not guaranteeing #1 (maybe the Cardinals or possibly the Texans where they were about to draft their QB of the future).

 

If the informal conversations his agent had been having had identified someone who had been willing to offer Tyrod money comensurate with his original deal and satisfying criteria #1 and #3 he would not have accepted the pay cut and then the Bills would have had a very difficult decision. In those circumstances my instinct is he wouldn't be here.

[BuffaloHokie13]

Isn't that what we are talking about?

 

Teams interested in TT as their starter

'Teams interested in TT as their starter'

 

Yes, that exactly. What we weren't talking about was 'Teams interested in trading for Tyrod'. You do realize that teams willing to give him an offer and start him if he were cut is interest, right?

 

The reason Tyrod is still here is also very simple. His decision to accept the contract reduction after his agent had temperature tested the market was based on three factors:

 

1. Chance to start in 2017;

2. Money;

3. Chance to play for a competitive team in 2017.

 

Most of the teams interested in giving him #1 and #2 could not, in his mind, offer #3 (see 49ers, Jets and Browns). The other options that might have offered #3 were probably not guaranteeing #1 (maybe the Cardinals or possibly the Texans where they were about to draft their QB of the future).

 

If the informal conversations his agent had been having had identified someone who had been willing to offer Tyrod money comensurate with his original deal and satisfying criteria #1 and #3 he would not have accepted the pay cut and then the Bills would have had a very difficult decision. In those circumstances my instinct is he wouldn't be here.

This, almost exactly. Dennison was also a factor.

[Wayne Cubed]

'Teams interested in TT as their starter'

 

Yes, that exactly. What we weren't talking about was 'Teams interested in trading for Tyrod'. You do realize that teams willing to give him an offer and start him if he were cut is interest, right.

Yea but if a team wouldn't trade for Taylor it would mean they weren't intersted in him being a starter, obviously

[BuffaloHokie13]

I didn't read your other post. If you want to post a link to it here, I'll look at it.

 

What I was referring to was when we got the Football back in the last 2:00 down by 3, Hotrod throws a pick. You can watch it at the link, bit it was butt ugly when we still had a chance to win.

 

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015121300/2015/REG14/bills@eagles?icampaign=GC_schedule_rr#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000603269&tab=analyze

 

 

You're right, 20. My bad.

 

Again not sure about the "letdown" business, but the D got a 3 and out giving us the football with 1:51 to play down by 6.

 

The Scoreless 4th quarter was the 1st scoreless quarter for Patsies** since 1st quarter of game 1 (week 11).

 

our drive sputters resulting in zero points.

 

 

Yes, the second game primarily. While the things you say about the game are true, you left out the part where Hotrod had Goodwin open in the EZ in the first drive of OT, but overthrew him. If he hits that, we win.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016122400/2016/REG16/dolphins@bills?icampaign=GC_schedule_rr#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000765103&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

 

 

Again, all true. But the D did get a 3 and out getting Hotrod and the O the football back with 2:41 to play. 1st and goal from the 10.

 

A couple of sacks, whatever.

 

Then on 4th and goal, he had time and Woods in the EZ. A good pass, we win. The pass was not a good one.

 

In all of the games above, he had the game on his hands. If he delivers, especially the Fish and Hawks games, we win.

 

If we get both Hawks and Fish, we probably would have it ended it at 16.

 

Our whole team screwed up.

 

But, the QB had the most control and gets all the glory and the most money AND a chance.

 

If Hotrod can come through in these situations, we will have a very good season.

 

Why do you keep making excuses for this hole in his game?

 

 

Go Hotrod

Go BILLS!!!

Yep. Whole team effort in most of those.

So we've now narrowed the opportunities to:

2015 Eagles - Down 3 w/ 1:49 left. Went as you indicated. L

2015 Patriots - Down 7 w/ 1:51 left. Went as you indicated other than the score. L

2015 Texans - Tied w/ 2:32 left, we score the go-ahead TD with 1:53 to play. Carp misses the XP, Our D holds, and we drive down the field again for a FG to put the game out of reach. W

2015 Titans - Down 6 w/ 9:36 left (definitely earlier, but a credited GWD). The infamous 3rd & 23 run and the drive ends in a go-ahead TD. W

2016 Ravens - Down 6 w/ 5:39 left. Punt L

2016 Dolphins - Down 4 w/ 4:00 left. We score the go-ahead TD w/ 1:20 left. Our D doesn't hold, goes to OT, First drive has an overthrow and a missed FG, Our D holds, their D holds, we trot out 10 instead of 11... L

2016 Seahawks - Down 6 w/ 2:41 left. 9 plays, shots at the endzone, turnover on downs. L

 

So he's had 7 chances and he's 2-5? He got credited w/ a GWD against Jacksonville, but there was 10 mins or more left in that game after our go-ahead score.

 

Here's the post I mentioned: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/194461-24-points-wins-losses-and-the-playoffs/

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Yea but if a team wouldn't trade for Taylor it would mean they weren't intersted in him being a starter, obviously

There is a subtle difference between the two.

 

Of all the other FAs out there TT was the best option

Yet not dynamic enough for teams to take the leap and talk trade with his (at he time) current contract of $27 mil.

 

So the question is was he really worth that $27 mil?

Edited June 30, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan