JohnC Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 As i thought, you are just making a naked pronouncement, backed up by nothing other than your "gut feeling". Complete waste of bandwidth. Just like the guy who has already decided that McDermott will fail as a head coach. You can have all the tools in the world and be a physical specimen. But for a qb if you are inaccurate it is a fatal flaw that can't be overcome. The windows in the NFL are so tight and timing and rhythm throws are required at a much higher level compared to the pro game. In college you can throw to receivers but in the pros you have to make more throws to tight spots. I just don't see him taking that leap. There is no doubt that he has a canon arm. But that isn't going to get you very far without good accuracy. Cardale is a good kid and he is a smart kid. The description of him not being smart is an unfair stereotype due mainly because of his imposing physical size and playful personality. If Peterman outperforms Cardale in camp I don't see him making the roster. It is not unusual for a new HC and staff to favor their drafted player over a drafted player by the prior regime. I'm not rooting against any player. It's a competition and the better player will become evident sooner rather than later. Whaley preferred Prescott over Cardale in last year's draft. He waited a round too long. Now Whaley is out of a job. Dithering on the qb position by a GM is not an attribute that helps you maintain your job. i don't think I have the energy for another rehashing of the Cardale discussion, but the same narratives keep showing up. He was and is a project with a high ceiling. He has all the tools but needs a couple years of good coaching and the right system before he can really be evaluated. He looks exactly like I thought he would in the small sample size he's played and given the situation. He was drafted into something different than he is now and we don't know if this regime will invest much into his development. I think they are going to focus on Peterman and then the presumed QB of the future that they take next year. Cardale is probably better off getting traded somewhere like Arizona. I have no idea how anyone can be certain he won't succeed given the right coaching, system, and opportunity. Whether or not gets that is simply unknown at this time. Yolo, I agree with you that Buffalo under this new staff is not the best situation for his long term development. As you stated Arizona would be a much better situation for him. As I stated in a prior post whenever a new regime takes over it has a tendency to value their drafted players over the players selected by the prior regime.
mannc Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 You can have all the tools in the world and be a physical specimen. But for a qb if you are inaccurate it is a fatal flaw that can't be overcome. The windows in the NFL are so tight and timing and rhythm throws are required at a much higher level compared to the pro game. In college you can throw to receivers but in the pros you have to make more throws to tight spots. I just don't see him taking that leap. There is no doubt that he has a canon arm. But that isn't going to get you very far without good accuracy. Cardale is a good kid and he is a smart kid. The description of him not being smart is an unfair stereotype due mainly because of his imposing physical size and playful personality. John, what evidence do you have that Cardale is inaccurate? That proposition is not supported by his college stats.
Bangarang Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 John, what evidence do you have that Cardale is inaccurate? That proposition is not supported by his college stats. Which college stats are you referring to?
John from Riverside Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 John, what evidence do you have that Cardale is inaccurate? That proposition is not supported by his college stats. Mann, with all respect I think that c. did actually show to be a bit innacurate in camp last year. Not to say that he cannot improve and there are things I LOVE about C. Jones...but the not being accurate thing was on full display in camp. (of course....there is that time he through a defender off him like a little boy when he was in the pocket that I still remember plain as day so there is that0
mannc Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 Which college stats are you referring to?61.7 completion percentage on 8.6 YPA.
JohnC Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 John, what evidence do you have that Cardale is inaccurate? That proposition is not supported by his college stats. Stats can be very deceiving when comparing college stats to the pro game. It's simply a different game. I'm not biased against him or rooting against. I just think his game is too raw and is too far away from being a polished player. I believe (opinion) that the wrestling coach is not going to keep two young developmental qbs on the roster. As I said in a prior post there is a tendency for newly installed HCs to prefer the players they selected over players associated with the former regime. It is widely believed that next year the franchise is going to be much more focused in finding a top shelf qb prospect. If that is the case I don't see both of the younger qbs currently on the roster remaining on the roster this year. The inclination (my opinion) will be for McDermott to favor his selection over Whaley's selection.
Bangarang Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 61.7 completion percentage on 8.6 YPA. This alone does not prove someone is accurate or even inaccurate for that matter. EJ had a 68% completion percentage in college. A number like that would indicate a highly accurate QB. Would you say that's a fair assessment of EJ? The eye test plays a large role here.
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) Stats can be very deceiving when comparing college stats to the pro game. It's simply a different game. I'm not biased against him or rooting against. I just think his game is too raw and is too far away from being a polished player. I believe (opinion) that the wrestling coach is not going to keep two young developmental qbs on the roster. As I said in a prior post there is a tendency for newly installed HCs to prefer the players they selected over players associated with the former regime. It is widely believed that next year the franchise is going to be much more focused in finding a top shelf qb prospect. If that is the case I don't see both of the younger qbs currently on the roster remaining on the roster this year. The inclination (my opinion) will be for McDermott to favor his selection over Whaley's selection. This ^ Possesing a canon for an arm is all you need in college. Devin Smith was able to run past defenders, and Cardale just threw the ball up for grabs. If you watch Cardale's college games you will see receivers making adjustments to the ball more often than not. That doesn't work in the pros. Teams are able to defend the passing game better. College teams are incredibly inept at defending the deep passing game. Teams don't see it anymore. Even Bama gets toasted by the deep passing game. Luckily for them they rarely face QB's who throw downfield. QB's need to fit the ball into smaller windows in the pros. Edited June 10, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5
mannc Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 This alone does not prove someone is accurate or even inaccurate for that matter. EJ had a 68% completion percentage in college. A number like that would indicate a highly accurate QB. Would you say that's a fair assessment of EJ? The eye test plays a large role here. I agree that those numbers don't prove Cardale is accurate. My point is that he has yet to see any meaningful playing time in the pros, and to this point, there is no basis for calling him inaccurate. I'm not saying Cardale is going to be a superstar, but let's just see how he does when he's given a chance to play before we say he sucks. The "eye test" is pretty worthless, BTW. People are too easily thrown off by biases and pre-conceived notions.
BarleyNY Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 John, what evidence do you have that Cardale is inaccurate? That proposition is not supported by his college stats. https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-pff-scouting-report-cardale-jones-qb-ohio-state/ Read that scouting report. I'm an OSU alum and I saw nearly every snap Cardale took there. It's as accurate appraisal of him in college as I've seen. His accuracy was highly inconsistent, but he certainly showed flashes of exceptional ability in that regard. Consistency is a must in the NFL and he was a long, long way from where he needs to be. Still, he was an excellent late round QB pick IMO. Physical skills galore and flashes of great ability, but he fell due to those severe accuracy issues. Fix those and you're looking at an elite level QB in the NFL. But if he doesn't dramatically improve then he can't even be a viable backup. His accuracy issues are that bad. So I'd expect our new coaching staff to evaluate him and try to correct his problems. I doubt they'll need more than this season to determine if they are correctable.
Putin Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 Those guys still have up side and do not need a running start to push the ball 30 yards downfield. Fitz, as Donald jones put it, had to put every ounce of his being into every throw- that was when he was only 30. Lol
Bangarang Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 The "eye test" is pretty worthless, BTW. People are too easily thrown off by biases and pre-conceived notions. The eye test is still the best way of evaluating talent and it's not even close. No idea how you can say it's worthless.
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-pff-scouting-report-cardale-jones-qb-ohio-state/ Read that scouting report. I'm an OSU alum and I saw nearly every snap Cardale took there. It's as accurate appraisal of him in college as I've seen. His accuracy was highly inconsistent, but he certainly showed flashes of exceptional ability in that regard. Consistency is a must in the NFL and he was a long, long way from where he needs to be. Still, he was an excellent late round QB pick IMO. Physical skills galore and flashes of great ability, but he fell due to those severe accuracy issues. Fix those and you're looking at an elite level QB in the NFL. But if he doesn't dramatically improve then he can't even be a viable backup. His accuracy issues are that bad. So I'd expect our new coaching staff to evaluate him and try to correct his problems. I doubt they'll need more than this season to determine if they are correctable. He has "potential". The issue is those aren't things you can typically "fix".
mannc Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 The eye test is still the best way of evaluating talent and it's not even close. No idea how you can say it's worthless.I think we have different definitions of the term "eye test".
Bangarang Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 I think we have different definitions of the term "eye test". Not sure how. Seems pretty simple and straight forward.
BringBackOrton Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) What is the basis for saying that Cardale is an "inaccurate QB"? His career completion percentage in college was 61.7 and his YPA was 8.6. Why hate on a guy on your own team, with enormous potential, who hasn't even had a chance to play yet? I don't understand it. I agree that those numbers don't prove Cardale is accurate. My point is that he has yet to see any meaningful playing time in the pros, and to this point, there is no basis for calling him inaccurate. I'm not saying Cardale is going to be a superstar, but let's just see how he does when he's given a chance to play before we say he sucks. The "eye test" is pretty worthless, BTW. People are too easily thrown off by biases and pre-conceived notions. Bro, what? Edited June 11, 2017 by jmc12290
JohnC Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 I agree that those numbers don't prove Cardale is accurate. My point is that he has yet to see any meaningful playing time in the pros, and to this point, there is no basis for calling him inaccurate. I'm not saying Cardale is going to be a superstar, but let's just see how he does when he's given a chance to play before we say he sucks. The "eye test" is pretty worthless, BTW. People are too easily thrown off by biases and pre-conceived notions. One person who had a stake in not being biased and having preconceived notions is Urban Meyers. He replaced the big qb with the canon arm because he felt that his replacement gave the team a better chance to succeed. There is no doubt that Cardale was a better pro prospect than the qb who replaced him because of his physical attributes. But given the chance to play he didn't come close to solidifying his starting job. Cardale is going to have an opportunity to display his talents in training camp and preseason. If he shows promise he will remain on the roster. If not, he will be dispatched. My prediction is that Peterman is going to move ahead of him in the qb rankings for this team. If that happens I don't see Cardale securing a roster spot.
H2o Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) One person who had a stake in not being biased and having preconceived notions is Urban Meyers. He replaced the big qb with the canon arm because he felt that his replacement gave the team a better chance to succeed. There is no doubt that Cardale was a better pro prospect than the qb who replaced him because of his physical attributes. But given the chance to play he didn't come close to solidifying his starting job. Cardale is going to have an opportunity to display his talents in training camp and preseason. If he shows promise he will remain on the roster. If not, he will be dispatched. My prediction is that Peterman is going to move ahead of him in the qb rankings for this team. If that happens I don't see Cardale securing a roster spot. Cardale is another raw prospect who may never amount to anything, but he can throw a football 70 yards which gives him a chance. He had an incredible stretch for Ohio St. during their title run, but truthfully he didn't fit in Urban's gimmick offense. That is why he ended up being benched. Barrett was the better fit as their QB, faster and more athletic in general. Edited June 11, 2017 by H2o
Kirby Jackson Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) One person who had a stake in not being biased and having preconceived notions is Urban Meyers. He replaced the big qb with the canon arm because he felt that his replacement gave the team a better chance to succeed. There is no doubt that Cardale was a better pro prospect than the qb who replaced him because of his physical attributes. But given the chance to play he didn't come close to solidifying his starting job. Cardale is going to have an opportunity to display his talents in training camp and preseason. If he shows promise he will remain on the roster. If not, he will be dispatched. My prediction is that Peterman is going to move ahead of him in the qb rankings for this team. If that happens I don't see Cardale securing a roster spot. That's kind of true. Cardale wasn't recruited by Urban and was never expected to play Urban's offense. He did lead them to a national title and never lost a game despite that. You wouldn't have Andrew Luck run Navy's offense either. He was always a way better pro prospect than JT. That argument holds zero weight when evaluating Cardale. Now if he's too wild to run the offense that's a different story. If you are reading into JT playing ahead of him you are missing the story. Again, I've seen every snap that he has taken in college and the NFL. Edited June 11, 2017 by Kirby Jackson
BarleyNY Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 He has "potential". The issue is those aren't things you can typically "fix". It doesn't happen often and that's why someone with his physical ability was a day 3 pick. He did show that he was capable of excellent accuracy. The man made some spectacular throws. He couldn't do it with nearly the consistency needed, but he did show he could do it. He was a lottery ticket and it's smart to buy those in situations like we were (are) in.
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