Public Financing of Stadiums

[BillsFan2313]

Not in the NFL because I wouldn't want to pay the price it cost to watch a game at a new stadium. I only watch the game. I don't see how a new stadium would enhance my experience. I don't have club suites, and I don't desire fancy in stadium cuisine or nightclubs. I would go to a new stadium to watch a football game, the same thing I do at older stadiums.

 

I honestly don't think you can say that, without experiencing it. It's also not just the stadium, the location and what around is a factor. For instance,I found the entertainment district near University of Phoenix stadium pretty cool. We tailgated, then checked that out before heading in for the Bills game. Also, just being a in a state of the art stadium just has a better feel. Going to Pittsburgh, hitting up the casino before a ball game was pretty neat. Check out the Altanta Braves new ball park and whats called "Battery Atlanta" outside the stadium, and tell me that doesn't sound awesome? Now, when you build a new stadium, typically a nice chunk of entertainment around the stadium comes with it. Sadly, it's not all about just the game anymore. People take time out of their busy lives, to enjoy the day with friends/family. Having a new stadium, and what typically comes with that, does enhance the fan experience.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

If the Bills do on fact build a new stadium in the near future, I highly doubt it will include all, or most of the amenities that you find in many of these other new stadiums. Cities like Atlanta, Minneapolis, San Francisco (area), Dallas, all have much larger metropolitan areas than Buffalo, and many more large corporations. Average income there is much different. More people there can afford to spend their money on those amenities than the people in WNY. It's not going to be a straight forward, "build it and they will come" approach.

 

As many here have stated, we don't care to attend a football game to enjoy a night club, or caviar dinners. We care about the game, and tailgating. The people in charge know this. The stadium committee takes several factors into account, including the local economy, fan interest, income, etc., when planning. I'm sure there will be some "updated" amenities, but no where near to the extent of these other buildings. Tickets will cost a bit more, I'm sure, and there will be some PSLs, but all things considered, I'm sure the Pegulas and those in charge will build a stadium that caters to the specific interests of the fan base. It may not be cheap, but I doubt it will be more than $900 million. They can avoid added costs by eliminating or minimizing certain things, like marble floors and granite countertops. Depending on the project, infrastructure may be a larger issue, but if and when the time comes, they'll do it right.

[Real McClappy]

 

I honestly don't think you can say that, without experiencing it. It's also not just the stadium, the location and what around is a factor. For instance,I found the entertainment district near University of Phoenix stadium pretty cool. We tailgated, then checked that out before heading in for the Bills game. Also, just being a in a state of the art stadium just has a better feel. Going to Pittsburgh, hitting up the casino before a ball game was pretty neat. Check out the Altanta Braves new ball park and whats called "Battery Atlanta" outside the stadium, and tell me that doesn't sound awesome? Now, when you build a new stadium, typically a nice chunk of entertainment around the stadium comes with it. Sadly, it's not all about just the game anymore. People take time out of their busy lives, to enjoy the day with friends/family. Having a new stadium, and what typically comes with that, does enhance the fan experience.

 

Still Blue collar man.

 

Just give 90% of Bills fan a parking lot with beer and a seat to sit in and we are good to go. I can personally careless about fancy restaurants or casino's

[BillsFan2313]

 

Still Blue collar man.

 

Just give 90% of Bills fan a parking lot with beer and a seat to sit in and we are good to go. I can personally careless about fancy restaurants or casino's

 

 

That's not being "blue collar". That's being stone age.

If the Bills do on fact build a new stadium in the near future, I highly doubt it will include all, or most of the amenities that you find in many of these other new stadiums. Cities like Atlanta, Minneapolis, San Francisco (area), Dallas, all have much larger metropolitan areas than Buffalo, and many more large corporations. Average income there is much different. More people there can afford to spend their money on those amenities than the people in WNY. It's not going to be a straight forward, "build it and they will come" approach.

 

As many here have stated, we don't care to attend a football game to enjoy a night club, or caviar dinners. We care about the game, and tailgating. The people in charge know this. The stadium committee takes several factors into account, including the local economy, fan interest, income, etc., when planning. I'm sure there will be some "updated" amenities, but no where near to the extent of these other buildings. Tickets will cost a bit more, I'm sure, and there will be some PSLs, but all things considered, I'm sure the Pegulas and those in charge will build a stadium that caters to the specific interests of the fan base. It may not be cheap, but I doubt it will be more than $900 million. They can avoid added costs by eliminating or minimizing certain things, like marble floors and granite countertops. Depending on the project, infrastructure may be a larger issue, but if and when the time comes, they'll do it right.

 

 

 

How is the Harbor Center doing? This is an example of an entertainment addition to his Hockey arena, which seems to be doing well? Pegula will do the same thing with the football stadium, regardless of "keeping it simple" crowd.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

How is the Harbor Center doing? This is an example of an entertainment addition to his Hockey arena, which seems to be doing well? Pegula will do the same thing with the football stadium, regardless of "keeping it simple" crowd.

 

Yeah, but isn't that apples to oranges? The NFL is entirely different. The Harbor Center (to my knowledge) had nothing to do with the NHL, other than being located near the arena. And I don't know the fine details of that, but I don't think the state provided funding, but I could be wrong. That was all Pegula, I think; I won't pretend to know what I'm talking about with that.

 

As far as a new stadium goes, adding things in the vicinity of the stadium isn't necessarily mutually exclusive to the stadium itself. Robert Kraft did something like that around Gillette, I believe, but there was state contribution with infrastructure. Kraft had a plan that would maximize his potential profit, and it worked masterfully. Pegula could do something similar, and probably will, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll receive "extra" funding from the state to do so, other than infrastructure improvements. A potential stadium deal would likely be exclusive to the stadium only, and surrounding infrastructure. Location is unknown, but if the Perry Projects is the plan, that's pretty much the same area as the Harbor Center improvements anyways. If at the current location, I'm not sure what would be done.

 

Let me just say that I have no real preference here. I live outside of NY state, and week 3 will be my first home game attended. If they move downtown, or stay in OP, it doesn't affect me personally. But I have done a ton of research on the topic, including other stadium projects and their funding, so I just try to give some insight on things. Many people have posted on the topic without doing any kind of research (not necessarily in this thread only, but in the past also).

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

Still Blue collar man.

 

Just give 90% of Bills fan a parking lot with beer and a seat to sit in and we are good to go. I can personally careless about fancy restaurants or casino's

Exactly. Nothing more to say. I can go to a restaurant or casino any time I please. Twenty dollars at the casino will last for one minute. That twenty dollars could have gotten me beer. I'd rather watch thousands of drunken maniacs in the parking lot. Isn't it more fun to hang out with your friends tailgating than sitting in a restaurant? Edited June 1, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[CodeMonkey]

These same threads pop up all the time. If you asked many people they would prefer that every tax dollar be spread around back to all the people that paid, and did not pay, them. The problem with that is that you wouldn't get anything back larger than a monthly allowance. As someone else said...no parks, museums, roads, etc.

 

Should the United States not have built the Washington Monument? An NFL Stadium is far more than a playground for billionaires. And being an NFL City gets Buffalo far more national (and international) exposure than Des Moines Iowa will ever get. There is indeed a soft marketing value to being home to a major league sports franchise.

Agreed that it does come up from time to time here. But disagree completely about the value to a city of having a NFL team.

There is is no "soft marketing" value to a city having a team. No one, or business, in their right mind is making a decision to go to a city, or stay away from a city, based on having a football team.

 

Teams generate income for businesses near the stadium 8-10 days a year. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things to all but a very select few (like Hammer for example). I would assume the team pays taxes as do most of the management and players. But that in no way offsets anywhere near the cost of the stadium, ongoing maintenance and improvements, and other costs such as police presence.

 

Having a NFL team is great fun for the 60,000 ish that go to those 8-10 games a year. But it is a very expensive luxury if the billionaire owners get handed stadiums by the city and/or state. Buffalo, and new york, really cannot afford that IMO.

 

I live in NY, but not in Erie County. So if the county wants to give the Bills a new stadium, then go for it with my blessing as I have no skin in that game. The same is true if the Bills add costs like a seat license to the fans that go to the games (since they at least use the stadium) to pay for it. But under no circumstances do I want NY giving them a penny. Teams make an awful lot of money to burden the taxpayers, most of which couldn't care less about the Bills, with the very high cost of their stadiums.

Edited June 1, 2017 by CodeMonkey

[DriveFor1Outta5]

Agreed that it does come up from time to time here. But disagree completely about the value to a city of having a NFL team.

There is is no "soft marketing" value to a city having a team. No one, or business, in their right mind is making a decision to go to a city, or stay away from a city, based on having a football team.

 

Teams generate income for businesses near the stadium 8-10 days a year. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things to all but a very select few (like Hammer for example). I would assume the team pays taxes as do most of the management and players. But that in no way offsets anywhere near the cost of the stadium, ongoing maintenance and improvements, and other costs such as police presence.

 

Having a NFL team is great fun for the 60,000 ish that go to those 8-10 games a year. But it is a very expensive luxury if the billionaire owners get handed stadiums by the city and/or state. Buffalo, and new york, really cannot afford that IMO.

 

I live in NY, but not in Erie County. So if the county wants to give the Bills a new stadium, then go for it with my blessing as I have no skin in that game. The same is true if the Bills add costs like a seat license to the fans that go to the games (since they at least use the stadium). But under no circumstances do I want NY giving them a penny. Teams make an awful lot of money to burden the taxpayers, most of which couldn't care less about the Bills, with the very high cost of their stadiums.

Great post. We are all here because we are Bills fans. We are undoubtedly a biased group because of this. Football teams aren't all that important in the grand scheme of things. How many people moved away from Houston because the Oilers moved? Outside of team employees I'm sure the answer is zero.

[PolishDave]

 

Just an honest question, have you every been to another stadium to watch a sporting event? If so, a new one? I think the experience is WAY better then New Era Field.

 

Nonsense. Completely disagree. And I have been to numerous other stadiums in the NFL including new ones, including domes.

 

Some have better seating. But as far as football experience goes, Buffalo is the top or damn close. Atmosphere in Buffalo is way more energetic than most too. As long as the seat is comfortable, it is easy to get food/beer and take a leak, what else really matters? The stadium in Orchard Park has all those things. Complete waste to spend taxpayer money on a new one. If the Pegulas want to drive a fancier car, they should buy it themselves. The existing car is still running great and just got a new coat of paint. Run it. Run it till the wheels fall off.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

Nonsense. Completely disagree. And I have been to numerous other stadiums in the NFL including new ones, including domes.

 

Some have better seating. But as far as football experience goes, Buffalo is the top or damn close. Atmosphere in Buffalo is way more energetic than most too. As long as the seat is comfortable, it is easy to get food/beer and take a leak, what else really matters? The stadium in Orchard Park has all those things. Complete waste to spend taxpayer money on a new one. If the Pegulas want to drive a fancier car, they should buy it themselves. The existing car is still running great and just got a new coat of paint. Run it. Run it till the wheels fall off.

...if the Feds would pay for a substantial revision of waterfront interstates and traffic flow, what's wrong with a Lucas Oil Field type downtown?.....certainly don't need Jones or Blank type mausoleums....New Era also has right of first refusal now to a new stadium fully knowing the naming cost escalates.....Chris Koch is on board.............

Edited June 1, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Augie]

I honestly don't think you can say that, without experiencing it. It's also not just the stadium, the location and what around is a factor. For instance,I found the entertainment district near University of Phoenix stadium pretty cool. We tailgated, then checked that out before heading in for the Bills game. Also, just being a in a state of the art stadium just has a better feel. Going to Pittsburgh, hitting up the casino before a ball game was pretty neat. Check out the Altanta Braves new ball park and whats called "Battery Atlanta" outside the stadium, and tell me that doesn't sound awesome? Now, when you build a new stadium, typically a nice chunk of entertainment around the stadium comes with it. Sadly, it's not all about just the game anymore. People take time out of their busy lives, to enjoy the day with friends/family. Having a new stadium, and what typically comes with that, does enhance the fan experience.

 

I live about 3 miles from The Battery, and I can tell you the stadium and the surrounding area are awesome! Don't get me wrong, I have loved the Ralph since the day it opened (I was there), but I'd be surprised if you could find many people who wouldn't want to have something like The Battery in town. It's great to have 365 days a year, not just on game days.

[QCity]

Complete waste to spend taxpayer money on a new one. If the Pegulas want to drive a fancier car, they should buy it themselves. The existing car is still running great and just got a new coat of paint. Run it. Run it till the wheels fall off.

 

 

This argument comes up in every single new stadium thread. It comes down to this: Are you the type of person that

 

A) Enjoys driving a brand new car and typically trades-up before things start falling apart on your current car or

 

B) Will drive a car into the ground running up 300K+ miles on it over decades and keeps the rust held together with duct tape almost as a sense of pride?

 

Have you figured out which personality you associate with? Don't bother, because it doesn't matter. Today's NFL is a country club and they don't want your rust bucket in their parking lot.

 

Sorry, but ticket prices are going up and the title of "Drunkest Fans in the NFL" is going away. A new stadium in the old First Ward may be the worst kept secret in town. Real estate speculation in the area is escalating, the owners just purchased a building that could conveniently be used as an Ops center, and hey -- there's already established parking for ~20K people.

 

[4_kidd_4]

http://buffalonews.com/2017/06/11/higgins-announce-plans-commodore-perry-housing-complex/

 

interesting.

 

Many residents say they are convinced the housing authority is delaying repairs at Perry because the property will be sold, either to developers or to the Buffalo Bills for a new stadium. The area has been mentioned as a possible site for a new stadium for the Bills, but team owners Terry and Kim Pegula so far have shown little interest in building a new stadium in the city or anywhere else.

[machine gun kelly]

My vote has always been to keep the Ralph and just upgrade it. We go to a game each year as we live in FL, and if they just had some more concession options and a little state money in 2022 maintain the building.

[ExiledInIllinois]

You aren't going to find a lot of support with, "I'd rather the Bills leave than..."

 

The reality is you are going to be looking at a public-private partnership. There are lots of ways to pass the cost along. That's the way the world works and there are 32 teams. You can either fall in line or watch your team leave.

Gary, Indiana... Chicago calling Line #1.

 

Oh wait...

My vote has always been to keep the Ralph and just upgrade it. We go to a game each year as we live in FL, and if they just had some more concession options and a little state money in 2022 maintain the building.

This.

 

We have to keep the hooks out of private parking and tailgating!

 

We are the last of the old model. We are cooler toters that want to pay 20 bucks to park and keep it in the hands of the private enterprises, like private parking and supermarkets.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...start the debate at the top.....would a new venue be domed to potentially facilitate the revenue stream as a four seasons multi-purpose venue versus an open air venue concentrating on 8 home games a year and potentially attracting events during the right season?.....

[DriveFor1Outta5]

...start the debate at the top.....would a new venue be domed to potentially facilitate the revenue stream as a four seasons multi-purpose venue versus an open air venue concentrating on 8 home games a year and potentially attracting events during the right season?.....

How many events would we really get though? McCartney and the Stones only have a few years left. After that point stadium concerts are done. I don't see us getting Super Bowls or Final Fours, so I'm not really certain much would happen in a domed stadium.

[Kirby Jackson]

How many events would we really get though? McCartney and the Stones only have a few years left. After that point stadium concerts are done. I don't see us getting Super Bowls or Final Fours, so I'm not really certain much would happen in a domed stadium.

Final Fours are certainly a possibility but that's maybe once in a 20 year span? The stadium wouldn't be generating a ton of outside income.

 

The reason for the stadium (and it's been hammered ad nauseum) on here is to match the ammentiites and location. The Bills will need the "cover" of a new stadium to raise prices. People don't downgrade locations they just quit. The Bills don't have the luxury of people quitting. The Bills can generate substantially more non-shared revenue with a new venue.

[Hardcore Bills Fan]

The core of the problem has been the increasingly lavish nature of the stadiums themselves. These facilities are WAY over designed. You simply don't need the kind of amenities that they're building into them. I would still like to see Buffalo get a new stadium...but one that speaks to the 'working man' nature of the fan base. One that has a game day experience fitting WNY.

 

As a practicing Architect the idea of a Buffalo-like Stadium really is intriguing.

 

Agreed, An outdoor, grass, open roof stadium is all thats needed, not some ridiculous multipurpose stadium that wont get used much anyway.

Ive always hated football being the 3rd wheel in the current proposals.

-Tracker pulls, rofl, that's worth a billion extra bucks for a roof. I'd rather keep getting winter classics.

-A snowballs chance in Texas that at a Super Bowl will be hosted here.

 

I dont mind a sin tax paying to help build and maintain a FOOTBALL stadium from Erie County with NYS and Pegs help, but I would hate paying an absurd tax to maintain a luxurious dome with the Buffalo winters we get. As St Louis about the dome they had for the Rams that they count maintain and in effect lead to the Rams laving to go back to LA.

 

We dont need a Jerry Jones style stadium just a nice, modern football stadium. This is not a wealthy community its barely blue collar anymore it's more pink, and pink collar workers will never be able to afford season's with PSL's and sin taxes.

 

Here's a quick reality check

-We are the 2nd smallest market in the NFL, 1st being Green Bay, simple stadium is all that is needed.

-The WNY area is ill-equip to handle hosting a Super Bowl.

-The bigger and more multi-purpose the stadium is the higher the taxes will be to maintain and upgrade.

-PSL's suck.

-Retractile roof will not only cost more but be pointless.

-This is WNY where a new international bridge has had its ground breaking on Canada's side 17 years ago and yet no new international bridge yet due to WNY politics.

 

In the end the keeping Ralph might be the best option in all this

[Hammered a Lot]

http://buffalonews.com/2017/06/11/higgins-announce-plans-commodore-perry-housing-complex/

 

interesting.

 

 

Could it be the new public housing as promised? Or selling the land, which gets it on the tax rolls, and privately developed. It's been suggested the later as it's a natural progression of development from Larkinvile.