Public Financing of Stadiums

[JohnC]

We all recieve public services that we benefit from. I agree with you. Many of these services are vital, and I don't mind paying for them. My point was that a tax subsidy is not the same as being handed millions of dollars to fund something that I want to build. They may both be subsidies by definition. I'll admit to my blunder in stating that I don't recieve any subsidies. However, a tax discount is much different than getting money handed to you to build something. Do I feel burdened by paying taxes? Sometimes yes, but my reasons why are a conversation that would belong on the ppp board. I just don't believe in socialism for billionaires.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses. The only point I was making and you are acknowledging to a degree is that we all receive some subsidies in one form or another. Sometimes the form of the subsidy is different. A tax deduction or a tax discount or relief or a write off may not seem to you as being a direct subsidy but it is still a real subsidy. Paying less taxes than the stated rate due to whatever reason is a subsidy.

 

Communities are competing for jobs and businesses to locate in their areas. Is it right for Solar City to get such large subsidies in a variety of forms to locate in NYS? Some people say yes that is the price to be paid for the businesses to be located there and others are unalterably opposed to the inducements. It's ironical that the so called low tax states very often offer the largest inducements to relocate to their areas.

 

My primary point in my responses is that many of us are receiving subsidies/benefits and not only are not aware of it but also receive benefits but call or categorize them as something else.

 

Although I don't fully agree with the tilt of your view I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Edited May 29, 2017 by JohnC

[Hammered a Lot]

You're right. But that's another topic. I didn't say a new stadium was needed. Remember of course that buildings don't last forever. Especially ones sitting out in the elements year after year. It's hard to believe but New Era is already older than the Rockpile was when it was abandoned. With that said, a true remodel and upgrade...not the nonsense they did a few years back is quite do-able.

A Paul Peck podcast earlier this year had Erie County Executive Mark Polinarz on. He stated the bones of New Era have been inspected and should last at least another 20-22 years.

[PolishDave]

You're right. But that's another topic. I didn't say a new stadium was needed. Remember of course that buildings don't last forever. Especially ones sitting out in the elements year after year. It's hard to believe but New Era is already older than the Rockpile was when it was abandoned. With that said, a true remodel and upgrade...not the nonsense they did a few years back is quite do-able.

 

There are at least 4 ancient Roman Ampitheaters still being used today.

 

It is entirely reasonable to expect a well built building to last hundreds of years. Obviously it will need to be maintained to remain safe for public use, but a rebuild is certainly not necessary.

 

 

We can debate the merits of corporate welfare all day, but we are missing the point. Why should the local government be forced to pay for something we don't need? All you need is a field with seats for fans. We already have that. Forcing taxpayers to foot the bill to build something we already have is inexplicable.

 

Totally agree. It is absolutely stupid for taxpayers to pay for a new stadium when there is already a perfectly functional (and quite nice) stadium that serves the needs of the community in Orchard Park right now. Building a new one would be a completely unnecessary waste of money.

 

If the Pegulas are dead set on building a new stadium in ten years or whatever, they should put systems in place right now to being raising the money from the private sector and fan base. There are many ways they could do so if they were creative enough. Then wait to build the stadium until they have raised all of the required money.

[SoCal Deek]

A Paul Peck podcast earlier this year had Erie County Executive Mark Polinarz on. He stated the bones of New Era have been inspected and should last at least another 20-22 years.

Unfortunately 22 years is next to nothing in "Building Years". If true, more retrofitting will certainly be a part of the next time the Bills contemplate a major renovation.

 

There are at least 4 ancient Roman Ampitheaters still being used today.

 

It is entirely reasonable to expect a well built building to last hundreds of years. Obviously it will need to be maintained to remain safe for public use, but a rebuild is certainly not necessary.

 

 

 

Speaking as a Licensed Architect.....I can assure you that all buildings are not expected to last for hundreds of years. Roman Amphitheaters were built with a completely different construction technology than we use today. Believe it or not, modern buildings are actually designed to last much LESS, not more, than their ancient counterparts.

[billz4life820]

taxes are wasted on so many things that we do not directly benefit from.... so why are people upset when some of the taxes go to something you truly enjoy?

 

public-private partnerships are not going anywhere and are much needed/beneficial

 

There are at least 4 ancient Roman Ampitheaters still being used today.

 

It is entirely reasonable to expect a well built building to last hundreds of years. Obviously it will need to be maintained to remain safe for public use, but a rebuild is certainly not necessary.

 

 

 

Totally agree. It is absolutely stupid for taxpayers to pay for a new stadium when there is already a perfectly functional (and quite nice) stadium that serves the needs of the community in Orchard Park right now. Building a new one would be a completely unnecessary waste of money.

 

If the Pegulas are dead set on building a new stadium in ten years or whatever, they should put systems in place right now to being raising the money from the private sector and fan base. There are many ways they could do so if they were creative enough. Then wait to build the stadium until they have raised all of the required money.

 

 

functional yes... nice not so much, go visit other stadiums, Bills Stadium is near the bottom in terms of aesthetics... The other NFL owners are going to push Pegulas to get a new stadium

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

Thanks for posting that. What I found interesting in that article is that most of the sources for stadium public funding do not typically impact the locals such as hotel & rental car tax increases.

I guess you glossed right over my post then...

[mead107]

I will chip in my labor for the new stadium to help lower taxes.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

taxes are wasted on so many things that we do not directly benefit from.... so why are people upset when some of the taxes go to something you truly enjoy?

 

public-private partnerships are not going anywhere and are much needed/beneficial

 

 

 

functional yes... nice not so much, go visit other stadiums, Bills Stadium is near the bottom in terms of aesthetics... The other NFL owners are going to push Pegulas to get a new stadium

You're right in claiming that taxes are wasted in many areas outside of football stadiums. I don't care for any waste of taxpayer dollars. The issue with building a new football stadium is that it's a blatant in your face waste of tax dollars. The Pegulas don't need financial help, and we don't desperately need a new stadium.

 

You state that private/public sector partnerships are needed and beneficial. That would be my issue with funding a new stadium. It would be neither needed nor beneficial. We don't need a new stadium, and economists have proven that new stadiums aren't financially beneficially to cities. New Era Field is a fine place to watch a football. Aside from tailgating that is the reason I attend a game. What do you more do you need than a seat to watch the game? Other stadiums simply have amenities that cater to those with an elitist mentality. We don't need that in Buffalo. We have no purposes for insanity like the Cowboys art gallery. If any fan says that New Era Field isn't good enough, I would tell them to quit trying so hard to be yuppie. Keep in mind that several years ago I posted things in favor of a new stadium. Now that I've attended games recently I completely changed my tune.

Edited May 31, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[Gordio]

Well then count me as delusional. Politicians waste our money regardless, so I'd prefer they waste it on entertainment that I enjoy ( along with thousands of others).

 

 

I totally agree with this. Your tax dollars are going to be wasted someway in NYS, which is so corrupt, imo they might as well be wasted on a football stadium, which I actually can enjoy a few times a year.

[Sandy McFiddish]

What? The taxes were paid on the sale of that team when Pegs bought it. The issue was Wilson's didn't have ready cash to pay the taxes when he died. Plus she had no desire to run the team. Big business pay many things even with tax breaks that benefit all. For example, while they write-off salaries as an expense the employees pay taxes on it. Those huge tax benefits the media tells you about are primarily normal tax deductions like salary, rents, supplies, etc... It's not like the government hands them money, but they give deductions, but like you can for children, house mortgage, donations to charity. Keep thinking the man is out to get you.

That was a misunderstanding on my part then, I admit I was wrong

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

 

I totally agree with this. Your tax dollars are going to be wasted someway in NYS, which is so corrupt, imo they might as well be wasted on a football stadium, which I actually can enjoy a few times a year.

Most of what you said is correct. However, just because waste happens doesn't mean we should condone more waste. Your viewpoint seems popular around here. I just don't fully understand it. Waste is ok when it's something we like? I don't think that it should work that way. Lastly, you're saying you don't enjoy games at New Era? I don't like the sound of more expensive tickets and tailgating as we know it ending, while taxpayers foot the bill. How is that an upgrade?

[BuffaloHokie13]

Most of what you said is correct. However, just because waste happens doesn't mean we should condone more waste. Your viewpoint seems popular around here. I just don't fully understand it. Waste is ok when it's something we like? I don't think that it should work that way. Lastly, you're saying you don't enjoy games at New Era? I don't like the sound of more expensive tickets and tailgating as we know it ending, while taxpayers foot the bill. How is that an upgrade?

 

I suppose the question actually is, Are tax dollars that are spent on something you enjoy/like and use sometimes actually wasted?

[SoCal Deek]

Or we could just spend my annual tax contribution to wipe out drugs, poverty, global warming, etc while getting nothing to show for it in return! Oh wait....that's what I do every April 15th when I'm paying my 'fair share'.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

I suppose the question actually is, Are tax dollars that are spent on something you enjoy/like and use sometimes actually wasted?

I enjoy New Era Field, so yes it is a waste. I wouldn't enjoy a new stadium any more than New Era. In fact probably less. Tailgating would be dead, and I wouldn't enjoy the actual game any more than I do now. Edited May 31, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[SoCal Deek]

I enjoy New Era Field, so yes it is a waste. I wouldn't enjoy a new stadium anymore. In fact probably less. Tailgating would be dead, and I wouldn't the actual game any more than I do now.

With all due respect...you're sort of making the alternative point without even knowing it. "Rich Stadium" was not built to be a show piece. It was built in an era when 'good enough' was all that WNY could stomach after a scandal ridden attempt at a Dome failed. But fast forward 50 years and you now enjoy New Era Stadium as much for what HAPPENS there, then for the actual place itself. I think you'd get used to a new, more modern stadium, and over time it too would become a place where things happen, memories and new traditions are made.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

With all due respect...you're sort of making the alternative point without even knowing it. "Rich Stadium" was not built to be a show piece. It was built in an era when 'good enough' was all that WNY could stomach after a scandal ridden attempt at a Dome failed. But fast forward 50 years and you now enjoy New Era Stadium as much for what HAPPENS there, then for the actual place itself. I think you'd get used to a new, more modern stadium, and over time it too would become a place where things happen, memories and new traditions are made.

I would like a new stadium because traditions form? That means football is more important than the stadium. So tell me again why I would benefit from a new stadium?

[HT02]

You aren't going to find a lot of support with, "I'd rather the Bills leave than..."

 

The reality is you are going to be looking at a public-private partnership. There are lots of ways to pass the cost along. That's the way the world works and there are 32 teams. You can either fall in line or watch your team leave.

Agreed 100%

[oldmanfan]

Live outside Indy and every time I go out to eat I pay off a little bit of Lucas Oil. Nice building but not used very much and too sterile an environment for me. And just 600 million give it take a few million.

 

A new stadium in downtown Buffalo might be nice but will it be used enough to warrant it? No.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

I enjoy New Era Field, so yes it is a waste. I wouldn't enjoy a new stadium any more than New Era. In fact probably less. Tailgating would be dead, and I wouldn't enjoy the actual game any more than I do now.

...wouldn't you say for the most part that attendance or lack thereof is the driving factor?....despite inclement weather in December , attendance is hardly affected......sure a modest Lucas Oil Field type stadium would be nice, but what exactly does Pegula gain by doing it now?.....I don't see where a multi-purpose/multi-use venue adds more for him as long as Bills' attendance holds steady.....

[DriveFor1Outta5]

...wouldn't you say for the most part that attendance or lack thereof is the driving factor?....despite inclement weather in December , attendance is hardly affected......sure a modest Lucas Oil Field type stadium would be nice, but what exactly does Pegula gain by doing it now?.....I don't see where a multi-purpose/multi-use venue adds more for him as long as Bills' attendance holds steady.....

I agree. You are using sound logic to prove that there is no need for a new stadium. Especially one built on the backs of the taxpayers. The issue is that the NFL owners all want new stadiums across the board. That's why sound logic is missing from this debate. The sole purpose of new stadiums are to squeeze more cash out of the fans. This makes it hard for me to comprehend why anyone would want a new stadium in Buffalo.