Justice Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/security-services-missed-five-opportunities-stop-manchester/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/security-services-missed-five-opportunities-stop-manchester/ I'd like to know why so many balls were dropped on this? Are there so many reports of suspicious activity that they can't follow up on them all? Are they afraid of profiling? How are they not watching someone like this 24/7? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Are they afraid of profiling? this. fears of being "racist" permeate our societies today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I'd like to know why so many balls were dropped on this? Are there so many reports of suspicious activity that they can't follow up on them all? Are they afraid of profiling? How are they not watching someone like this 24/7? That's ridiculous. I'm not saying it isn't a possibility, what I am saying is when it's your own people turning you in that shouldn't even be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 That's ridiculous. I'm not saying it isn't a possibility, what I am saying is when it's your own people turning you in that shouldn't even be the case. The San Bernardino (spelling??) neighbours were afraid to say anything. It would be most welcome if very disturbing behaviour was discreetly reported before people went off the deep end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 (edited) That's ridiculous. I'm not saying it isn't a possibility, what I am saying is when it's your own people turning you in that shouldn't even be the case. What's ridiculous? Being accused of profiling? If so have you not been paying attention? Regardless of who turns them in there will still be a good number of idiots screaming against profiling. Edited May 26, 2017 by Chef Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I'd like to know why so many balls were dropped on this? Are there so many reports of suspicious activity that they can't follow up on them all? Are they afraid of profiling? How are they not watching someone like this 24/7? At some point you have to call out a pattern for what it is: Manchester, San Bernandino, Pulse nightclub, Brussels, Paris attacks... all carried out by people who were under watch and on known watch lists. One is an accident. Two a coincidence. But this many now? It's a pattern, not just balls being dropped. Mass surveillance was sold as a tool used to stop terrorist attacks, yet over and over again we're seeing known wolves carry out these attacks despite being under intense surveillance. These tools were never designed to stop terrorist attacks, they were designed to control the civilian population. Until we wake up and realize that our governments are not interested in stopping terrorist attacks as much as they are in exploiting them for their benefit, we're going to keep seeing these sorts of tragedies. It falls to us, the people, to make this right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 What's ridiculous? Being accused of profiling? If so have you not been paying attention? Regardless of who turns them in there will still be a good number of idiots screaming against profiling. I don't know what to tell you. If I guy has extremist views, gets thrown out of his mosque and people that know him warned the authorities on five separate occasions and that still isn't enough to at least monitor him then how can we ever prevent these despicable actions? At some point you have to call out a pattern for what it is: Manchester, San Bernandino, Pulse nightclub, Brussels, Paris attacks... all carried out by people who were under watch and on known watch lists. One is an accident. Two a coincidence. But this many now? It's a pattern, not just balls being dropped. Mass surveillance was sold as a tool used to stop terrorist attacks, yet over and over again we're seeing known wolves carry out these attacks despite being under intense surveillance. These tools were never designed to stop terrorist attacks, they were designed to control the civilian population. Until we wake up and realize that our governments are not interested in stopping terrorist attacks as much as they are in exploiting them for their benefit, we're going to keep seeing these sorts of tragedies. It falls to us, the people, to make this right. Many people like to chalk it up to incompetence. Don't count me in on that. Where there's smoke there's fire and unfortunately a lot of people have a lot to gain with these terroristic actions. Is it some grand conspiracy? I doubt it, but there's a reason why these organizations turn a blind eye. Maybe the system has them handcuffed. Who really knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 At some point you have to call out a pattern for what it is: Manchester, San Bernandino, Pulse nightclub, Brussels, Paris attacks... all carried out by people who were under watch and on known watch lists. One is an accident. Two a coincidence. But this many now? It's a pattern, not just balls being dropped. Mass surveillance was sold as a tool used to stop terrorist attacks, yet over and over again we're seeing known wolves carry out these attacks despite being under intense surveillance. These tools were never designed to stop terrorist attacks, they were designed to control the civilian population. Until we wake up and realize that our governments are not interested in stopping terrorist attacks as much as they are in exploiting them for their benefit, we're going to keep seeing these sorts of tragedies. It falls to us, the people, to make this right. I'm not writing you off entirely but consider that you can't do anything to these people until they say/do something illegal. Then consider a situation like Ruby Ridge. Then consider the sheer manpower it takes to monitor those watch lists and that without 24/7 eyes-on surveillance you can't possibly stop something like this from happening every time. Then consider that some successes of these programs may not be made public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I'm not writing you off entirely but consider that you can't do anything to these people until they say/do something illegal. Then consider a situation like Ruby Ridge. Then consider the sheer manpower it takes to monitor those watch lists and that without 24/7 eyes-on surveillance you can't possibly stop something like this from happening every time. Then consider that some successes of these programs may not be made public. Condoning terrorist attacks should be illegal. Recording people's voices while saying it with your smart phone for proof should be legal too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I don't know what to tell you. If I guy has extremist views, gets thrown out of his mosque and people that know him warned the authorities on five separate occasions and that still isn't enough to at least monitor him then how can we ever prevent these despicable actions? Oh I agree 100%. The question that begs to be asked, which I did, is why wasn't someone who has this many red flags able to get the tools to make a bomb and blow it up? At some point you have to call out a pattern for what it is: Manchester, San Bernandino, Pulse nightclub, Brussels, Paris attacks... all carried out by people who were under watch and on known watch lists. One is an accident. Two a coincidence. But this many now? It's a pattern, not just balls being dropped. Mass surveillance was sold as a tool used to stop terrorist attacks, yet over and over again we're seeing known wolves carry out these attacks despite being under intense surveillance. These tools were never designed to stop terrorist attacks, they were designed to control the civilian population. Until we wake up and realize that our governments are not interested in stopping terrorist attacks as much as they are in exploiting them for their benefit, we're going to keep seeing these sorts of tragedies. It falls to us, the people, to make this right. You mentioned four attacks carried out by people on watch lists getting away with murder. This is a pattern but maybe the pattern is that they have stopped dozens of potential attacks being carried out by people on watch lists. Maybe the challenge is much greater that we imagine and those that have fallen through the cracks are few compared to the numbers of attempts that have been thwarted. Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Oh I agree 100%. The question that begs to be asked, which I did, is why wasn't someone who has this many red flags able to get the tools to make a bomb and blow it up? I have no clue. I don't know the recipe. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 (edited) I'm not writing you off entirely but consider that you can't do anything to these people until they say/do something illegal. Then consider a situation like Ruby Ridge. Then consider the sheer manpower it takes to monitor those watch lists and that without 24/7 eyes-on surveillance you can't possibly stop something like this from happening every time. Then consider that some successes of these programs may not be made public. You're right about the amount of manpower needed to efficiently use the system in place to stop terrorist attacks before they start. 100% It's that very fact that makes me doubt their stated goal. They know it's too much data to sift through in real time, for that reason it's a terrible tool to use to predict or stop attacks before they happen... but that's exactly how these programs were sold when they were revealed. What it does a wonderful job of doing is collecting information that can be used later (in prosecutions of terrorist cases, or blackmail/control of public officials and private citizens alike). The bolded is where I have a bit of an issue (not with you, in general), because it's one that's often used as a defense. I agree that there are plenty of successes in the IC world that must remain secret, no question. But in the age of leaks we live in, and with NSA under intense pressure in 2013 when the Snowden leaks exposed the scope of the system in place, if there were successes made from these programs we would have heard at least one if not multiple. If only to change the narrative in the press. The fact that hasn't happened, raises some suspicions. The fact that we continue to see known wolves, who are under surveillance and yet still slip their leash to loose an attack, shows me that we've been bamboozled. We were told giving up our right to privacy and due process was necessary to protect us from these sorts of attacks... yet here we are, nearly 17 years into this "War on Terror" and we've yet to see any return on that Faustian investment. Throw in the fact this Manchester bomber allegedly got his training in Syria, from ISIS fighters who are being trained, armed, funded, and sharing intelligence with various elements of the US IC to fight Assad - and people should be outraged. This is yet another example of, at best, the western allies working with terrorists in one region of the world and looking the other way while that same group detonates bombs in another area of the world. Their agenda in Syria requires the use of ISIS as a proxy, thus they're not actively engaged in eradicating ISIS until their agenda in Syria is done. That's a double standard that cost 22 people their lives in Manchester. The war on terror is not being waged in our best interests. It's a tool used to divide us. To keep us in fear. To keep money flowing into the MiC coffers... all of which might be acceptable if the governments of the west didn't seem to be actively looking the other way when the inevitable blowback from their meddling comes home to roost. (imo) Edited May 26, 2017 by Deranged Rhino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I have no clue. I don't know the recipe. Lol {joesixpack} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Let's try to look at it another way. Imagine all the false leads they get from people. All the wild goose chases they have to follow and waste valuable man power and resources on. It's a damn near impossible task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Let's try to look at it another way. Imagine all the false leads they get from people. All the wild goose chases they have to follow and waste valuable man power and resources on. It's a damn near impossible task. Let's look at how many times the FBI has used entrapment to "foil" terrorist plots in the past decade... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/terrorist-plots-helped-along-by-the-fbi.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Plus the simple fact that terrorists can fail the vast majority of their attempts and still be successful. Counter-terrorism...you can't make a single mistake, or you've failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Intelligence experts routinely said the bomber was a dime a dozen person, it's the ones who build the bombs that they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Let's look at how many times the FBI has used entrapment to "foil" terrorist plots in the past decade... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/terrorist-plots-helped-along-by-the-fbi.html I don't see anything wrong with this tactic. Good for them. Find them and catch them any way you can. This isn't entrapment, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I don't see anything wrong with this tactic. Good for them. Find them and catch them any way you can. This isn't entrapment, imo. That's not freedom in the North American sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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