GG Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, BillStime said: How many meetings did the Trump campaign have with Russian operatives? Define operative. 1
BullBuchanan Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Just now, Deranged Rhino said: You're three hours behind the curve (again). And -- not surprisingly -- backing the wrong horse. oh did I miss another #deepstate conspiracy? What did Moscow Mitch say now?
Deranged Rhino Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Just now, BullBuchanan said: oh did I miss another #deepstate conspiracy? What did Moscow Mitch say now? No. You're pushing one right this very moment without realizing it. Again, the "conspiracy theory" is that Trump/Russia was ever real. It never was. But you STILL believe it. Because you've been had. Duped. Conned. And you're too lazy and scared to look into it further to see that for yourself.
BullBuchanan Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: No. You're pushing one right this very moment without realizing it. Again, the "conspiracy theory" is that Trump/Russia was ever real. It never was. But you STILL believe it. Because you've been had. Duped. Conned. And you're too lazy and scared to look into it further to see that for yourself. Right, big fake story that's been going on for years with piles and piles of redacted evidence and dozens of criminal convictions with nearly ever member of the campaign's staff in jail as a result. Trump was the only clean one. I bet you believe in Benghazi, though. Edited April 21, 2020 by BullBuchanan
Deranged Rhino Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Just now, BullBuchanan said: Right, big fake story that's been going on for years with piles and piles of redacted evidence and dozens of criminal convictions with nearly ever member of the campaign's staff in jail as a result. Trump was the only clean one. I bet you believe in Benghazi, though. You're running from the very piles of evidence you claim to be in favor of reading. You've been running from a conversation since the 1st of April. Keep thinking you're enlightened. All you're doing is proving what a joke you are by refusing to engage with the evidence presented to you.
BillStime Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: I know the answer. So why don't you tell me. List the meetings they had, and the parties involved, including their ties to Russian intelligence. Go! You're the one who called it a hoax. You're the one who sought an example of the Trump/Russia matter. I asked you a question ABOUT the matter... and you told me that every Trump/Russia meeting was set up my a DNC operative. You never answered the question - how many meetings were involved? Where is your source? You haven't provided an ounce of proof that Trump DIDN'T collude - could it be that you're just too lazy to think for yourself and have to find a source that validates what you NEED to hear?
Deranged Rhino Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said: I bet you believe in Benghazi, though. And as for this hot sentence of nonsense -- what do you mean "believe in Benghazi"? Are you suggesting four Americans did not die in Benghazi under less than auspicious circumstances?
bdutton Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said: Right, big fake story that's been going on for years with piles and piles of redacted evidence and dozens of criminal convictions with nearly ever member of the campaign's staff in jail as a result. Trump was the only clean one. I bet you believe in Benghazi, though. Process crimes. Nothing at all to do with colluding with a foreign power. 2 1
BullBuchanan Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 1 minute ago, bdutton said: Process crimes. Nothing at all to do with colluding with a foreign power. mhmm.
Deranged Rhino Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Just now, BillStime said: You're the one who called it a hoax. You're the one who sought an example of the Trump/Russia matter. I asked you a question ABOUT the matter... and you told me that every Trump/Russia meeting was set up my a DNC operative. You never answered the question - how many meetings were involved? Where is your source? You haven't provided an ounce of proof that Trump DIDN'T collude - could it be that you're just too lazy to think for yourself and have to find a source that validates what you NEED to hear? I've provided hundreds of pages of proof. Most in this thread alone. It's called reading And you're still running from a basic question about Trump Tower... why? You should feel confident you are in the right if you know this stuff as well as I do. So let's go. Prove it to me. Just now, BullBuchanan said: mhmm. He's right. Not a single person has been indicted for Russian collusion or conspiracy. Not one. Not even any Russians. (they had their case dropped due to poor legal reasoning and faulty evidence) 1 3
BillStime Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said: I've provided hundreds of pages of proof. Most in this thread alone. It's called reading And you're still running from a basic question about Trump Tower... why? You should feel confident you are in the right if you know this stuff as well as I do. So let's go. Prove it to me. See, that's where you're wrong. I don't give two schitts about the Trump Tower meeting. I want you to tell me HOW MANY MEETINGS occurred. You apparently have all the right sources - and answers - and spend all day on TwoBillsDrive defending Trump - so let's hear it - how many meetings?
Deranged Rhino Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, BillStime said: See, that's where you're wrong. I don't give two schitts about the Trump Tower meeting. I want you to tell me HOW MANY MEETINGS occurred. Zero meetings happened between Trump reps and Russian operatives. Zero. Downer isn't a Russian. Mifsud isn't a Russian. NV is a Russian but was a working asset for GPS. None of this is about defending Trump. It's about defending the rule of law and our civil liberties. That's what you fail to see you're fighting against by supporting the abuses that took place in 2016-2018. It's not about partisanship. It's about right and wrong. And you're on the side of people who thought it was fine to illegally spy on their political opposition for the purposes of subverting the US election -- and, in the process, disenfranchising millions of American voters. This is backed up by Volume I of the Mueller report, multiple OIG findings from Horowitz, three congressional investigations, and multiple testimonies to congress from several dozen people involved in the matter. Edited April 21, 2020 by Deranged Rhino 2 2
BullBuchanan Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Just now, Deranged Rhino said: I've provided hundreds of pages of proof. Most in this thread alone. It's called reading And you're still running from a basic question about Trump Tower... why? You should feel confident you are in the right if you know this stuff as well as I do. So let's go. Prove it to me. He's right. Not a single person has been indicted for Russian collusion or conspiracy. Not one. Not even any Russians. (they had their case dropped due to poor legal reasoning and faulty evidence) Republicans don't find republicans guilty of Treason. More at '11. You people are so gullible. They didn't find an audio recording of Trump saying "I'd like to do a Treason" so you declare him innocent, ye meanwhile he asked Russia to hack the DNC on national television, which they did, ###### Jr. had meetings with Russians in Trump tower which he lied about, Flynn lied about meeting with Russians, Sessions met with them, literally everyone, but nope that's not why they were there. Russia just happened to interfere in our election, and the rest is all a big koinkidink. 9 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: I've provided hundreds of pages of proof. Most in this thread alone. It's called reading And you're still running from a basic question about Trump Tower... why? You should feel confident you are in the right if you know this stuff as well as I do. So let's go. Prove it to me. He's right. Not a single person has been indicted for Russian collusion or conspiracy. Not one. Not even any Russians. (they had their case dropped due to poor legal reasoning and faulty evidence) Oops: 2
Deranged Rhino Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Just now, BullBuchanan said: Republicans don't find republicans guilty of Treason. More at '11. You people are so gullible. You think treason occurred? REALLY?! Treason? Explain your position. 1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said: They didn't find an audio recording of Trump saying "I'd like to do a Treason" so you declare him innocent, ye meanwhile he asked Russia to hack the DNC on national television, which they did, ###### He made a joke on stage at the height of the media talking about the hacks. This is the weakest position to hold (so it's no surprise you're still clinging to it). 2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: Jr. had meetings with Russians in Trump tower which he lied about, False. He didn't lie about it. 27 hours in front of multiple committees and no perjury charge prove this. The Trump Tower meeting was an arranged meeting by western intelligence sources, not Russian. 2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: Flynn lied about meeting with Russians, False. Flynn did not lie about "meeting with Russians". In fact, he didn't lie at all per the FBI. You're wrong about BASIC facts, Bull. Maybe it's time you reassess what you think you know. because so far it's all wrong. 3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: Sessions met with them, literally everyone, but nope that's not why they were there. You mean, as a sitting US Senator on multiple relevant committees involving foreign policy? You're stretching beyond rationality now... if you had ACTUAL knowledge of this matter you'd understand how silly you're coming across now. 1 1
BullBuchanan Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said: You think treason occurred? REALLY?! Treason? Explain your position. He made a joke on stage at the height of the media talking about the hacks. This is the weakest position to hold (so it's no surprise you're still clinging to it). False. He didn't lie about it. 27 hours in front of multiple committees and no perjury charge prove this. The Trump Tower meeting was an arranged meeting by western intelligence sources, not Russian. False. Flynn did not lie about "meeting with Russians". In fact, he didn't lie at all per the FBI. You're wrong about BASIC facts, Bull. Maybe it's time you reassess what you think you know. because so far it's all wrong. You mean, as a sitting US Senator on multiple relevant committees involving foreign policy? You're stretching beyond rationality now... if you had ACTUAL knowledge of this matter you'd understand how silly you're coming across now. Kid, you're a joke.
Deranged Rhino Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Just now, BullBuchanan said: Kid, you're a joke. You literally laid out 6 fake "facts" in a row without hesitation and I'm the joke? No, sir. You bungled BASIC facts which are undisputed! 1
BullBuchanan Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: You literally laid out 6 fake "facts" in a row without hesitation and I'm the joke? No, sir. You bungled BASIC facts which are undisputed! You have an excuse for every crime. Roger Stone will spend the rest of his life in prison because of tampering witnesses for something Trump was completely innocent of because it never existed. Well *****, that really sucks for him. Edited April 21, 2020 by BullBuchanan 1
Buffalo_Gal Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said: You think treason occurred? REALLY?! Treason? Explain your position. Well, I think sedition occurred. Let's see if Brennan, Comey, and friends are charged with it. My position has been explained on countless pages, in a number of threads. ? Anyone spouting "treason" against Trump or his administration is an ill-informed mouth breather unwilling to read the source documents that are in public domain. You should disengage. Edited April 22, 2020 by Buffalo_Gal 4 1
Deranged Rhino Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Just now, BullBuchanan said: You have an excuse for every crime. You've gone out of your way to avoid discussing the only actual crime committed: On 4/1/2020 at 9:56 AM, Deranged Rhino said: @BullBuchanan -- Time for you to show the whole board that you have this whole scandal down, and weren't fooled at all into believing a narrative concocted by the USIC, DNC, and 44's White House. We can do this with civility and we both might end up learning a thing or two -- that is if you got the stones for it. And I hope you do. You contend that the Russians and their proxies interfered in the 2016 election more than the USIC and previous administration. (please correct that if it's inaccurate). I contend that the USIC and its proxies (including 44's administration, the establishment media, and the DNC/HRC campaigns) interfered FAR more, with a more disastrous impact on the country and our civil discourse. That is not to say I'm arguing Russia did nothing, they did, just that what they did was comical (and ineffective) compared to what the USIC did. Only one of these positions can be correct. So let's dig in and see which one holds more merit based on evidence and fact, not opinion and supposition. We'll start with a few simple premises upon which I think we both can agree -- correct any you disagree with: 1)The United States Government, especially Langley, has a long history of meddling in the elections of sovereign powers. 2) Anything the Russian intelligence services can do, like meddle in an election, the US intelligence community can do with better funding/training/and efficiency. Those are two undeniable facts, backed by history, budgets, and their success rates. The major thrust of the Russian operation into the 2016 election, per three congressional studies and Mueller's own report, was to purchase around $100k of ad buys on Facebook. These ads largely were (sloppy) memes designed to cause division and chaos rather than favoring one party over the other. Ads like these: Reveal hidden contents (spoiler tag added for space purposes) These ads were but a drop in the bucket compared to the almost $1 billion dollar campaign run by the Clinton machine, and an almost equally extravagant Trump campaign. Yet, we are to believe that $100k of (not even targeted) ad buys somehow drowned out close to a billion dollars worth of advertising from the DNC or GOP? To put this in perspective, Bloomberg just ran an all out assault on the digital media space, dropping close to a quarter of a billion dollars in less than three months into the marketplace and he wound up winning... American Samoa. How did Bloomberg's money do so much less than the Russian 100k? To underline this point even further, to show how ineffective the Russian campaign was, the Mueller prosecution team was just forced to drop its case against the only Russians Mueller indicted in his two year probe due to faulty evidence and specious legal arguments. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/16/us/politics/concord-case-russian-interference.html The only way you could argue that Russia interfered/meddled in the election more than our own government is if you were to take the position that they did more than just Facebook ads -- something not even Mueller, Congress, or the FBI ever could prove after several years. If you have something more they did, please share. If not -- then you have to see that your position is already weaker than you'd like to admit. Of course, proving Russia was ineffective in their attempts to interfere is only half the discussion. The other half lies in proving that the USIC and its proxies interfered in a more dastardly and demonstrable fashion. And I can do that, with reams of evidence to back it up. But it's best to start slow, and start at the very beginning of this whole scandal. With a primary source document I'm willing to bet you've never seen or even heard about: This is a declassified FISC Opinion memo from Justice Collyer. It was declassified in April of 2017 by DNI Coats, and was originally compiled in the fall of 2016 at the height of the campaign. It's a 99 page document I recommend reading in full, but for the sake of expediency and this conversation, pages 82-84 of the document itself cut to the heart of the matter and will, in time, show you where the whole "Russia narrative" actually began. https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/icotr/51117/2016_Cert_FISC_Memo_Opin_Order_Apr_2017.pdf This document discusses an audit of the FISC and multiple illegal intrusions into the 702 program from within the FBI and DOJ for at least four years prior to 2016. These intrusions and abuses of the 702 program paint a picture of gross criminal conduct which was routinely carried out by the highest levels of the FBI and DOJ under 44. This matter came to the FISC's attention in September of 2016 when then head of NSA, Admiral Rogers (an Obama appointee), noticed an alarming rise in the number of illegal 702 queries being conducted by private contractors (not FBI or DOJ personnel) without the proper warrant or oversight. (Page 82): "NSA examined all queries using identifiers for 'U.S. persons targeted pursuant to Sections 704 and 705(b) of FISA using the [REDACTED/Likely X-Keyscore] tool in [REDACTED]... from November 1, 2015 to May 1, 2016." Id. at 2-3 (footnote omitted). Based on that examination, "NSA estimates that approximately eighty-five percent of those queries, representing [REDACTED] queries conducted by approximately [REDACTED] targeted offices, were not compliant with the applicable minimization procedures." Id. at 3. Many of these non-compliant queries involved the use of the same identifiers over different date ranges. Id. Even so, a non-compliance rate of 85% raises substantial questions about the propriety of using of [REDACTED / likely X-Keyscore] to query FISA data. While the government reports that it is unable to provide a reliable estimate of the number of non-compliant queries since 2012, id., there is no apparent reason to believe the November 2015-April 2016 period coincided with an unusually high error rate." (Emphasis my own) In order to understand what this document is discussing, it's important to understand how the FISC works, what the 702 program is, and what powers the DOJ NSD and FBI CID hold in their respective agencies. It's also important to know what a Title I FISA warrant is, how it works, and how they're granted. Once you do understand these elements (and I'm happy to walk you through any of them that you may have questions about), this document becomes quite chilling. It's laying out how there were ROUTINE abuses in the most invasive, and powerful, surveillance tools within the USIC by unauthorized private contractors working for the FBI and DOJ -- so much so that 85 percent of the searches were deemed illegal by the FISC and NSA both. This is a MAJOR scandal for the Obama administration, breaking in the early spring (April) of 2016 when Rogers first told the DOJ/FBI that the NSA was doing an audit on their 702 queries. The type of scandal that would bring down his entire legacy if it were to come out, and detonate much of the party's leadership. Even bigger, there's every reason to believe these kinds of abuses were happening in 43's administration as well, meaning this scandal was a threat to not only Obama, but the entire establishment GOP and DNC as well. It quite literally was an existential crisis for the most powerful politicians and gov't employees in the country. And you, likely, never heard boo about it. The information and data contained within the 702 program, and available through tools like X-Keyscore, is the mother lode if one were ever inclined to apply pressure or to blackmail a political rival (or private citizen). Obama ran on a platform of reducing the security state, of stopping these sorts of abuses of our 4th amendment rights. I know this because it's why I voted for him twice. Yet, here is Admiral Rogers, in the spring of 2016, exposing that (once again) the Obama administration's word meant dick. They weren't only expanding the surveillance state (doubling its size in 8 years), they were routinely running illegal searches on private citizens for the purposes of blackmail and extortion. How it works is easy -- need to make sure a vote goes your way, or an appeals judge rules in your favor? Check his digital footprint, find his secrets, and exploit them to get him to comply with your wishes. This was so routine it was almost SOP from 2012-2016 at least. Admiral Rogers not only knew this, and had the evidence with this audit -- he was demanding the DOJ and FBI leadership (Comey, McCabe, and others) to explain all their illegal searches to the FISC. That put these powerful people in serious legal peril. These were egregious violations of the constitution and their oaths of office. Decades in prison awaited them all if they weren't able to adequately explain their illegal activity. And they knew they couldn't explain it without admitting to further crimes. They were, quite literally, fukkked. A massive scandal which threatened to take out all of establishment DC in one massive media explosion was hanging over their heads like the sword of Damocles. At the time this was breaking, early spring of 2016 (March/April), there was ZERO talk in the media about Trump/Russia. It was not a story. It wasn't even a blip on the radar. In fact, the only discussions about Russia at the time were coming from the Clinton campaign while discussing her platform on what to do in Syria. She was taking the position (with her neoliberal handlers) to implement No Fly zones in Syria. Which sounds great, until you understand that in order to enforce those No-Fly zones would require US pilots to drop bombs on Russian AA sites in the region and kill Russian troops along the way. In other words, the only Russia news peculating was HRC's desire to start a war against them over Syria. There was no talk of Trump and Putin. There was no dossier. There was nothing... just a massive scandal uncovered by Obama's own NSA director which threatened to not only expose the Obama administration for unparalleled civil liberty abuses, but threatened to take down Clinton and the Bushes in the crossfire. A change in the narrative was needed. That's why, just 24 hours after Rogers alerted the DOJ and FBI to his audit, President Obama met alone in the Oval Office with Mary Jacoby -- the wife of Glenn Simpson. Within 72 hours of that meeting, the DNC had hired Simpson's oppo-research shop, Fusion GPS, who then went and hired Christopher Steele. All within days of Roger's move. This isn't speculation, it's proven with White House visitor logs. ... Then, within about a month, the Russia narrative began to gestate. This is the starting point to a much larger conversation. It's not opinion. It's backed by years of research, first hand interviews, and primary source material. 1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said: Roger Stone will spend the rest of his life in prison because of tampering witnesses for something Trump was completely innocent of because it never existed. Well *****, that really sucks for him Roger Stone was convicted of a crime that was not Russian collusion/conspiracy. Again, not a single person was found guilty of the central claim you are clinging to -- three years after it's been debunked. And you think you're NOT a conspiracy theorist, Bull? You're pushing one right this very moment. And doing it with absolutely ZERO skill. 1
BullBuchanan Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said: You've gone out of your way to avoid discussing the only actual crime committed: Roger Stone was convicted of a crime that was not Russian collusion/conspiracy. Again, not a single person was found guilty of the central claim you are clinging to -- three years after it's been debunked. And you think you're NOT a conspiracy theorist, Bull? You're pushing one right this very moment. And doing it with absolutely ZERO skill. Right. Like I said, he tampered with witnesses in the Russia Investigation because it was fake. Did anyone tell him that?
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