Deranged Rhino Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 17 minutes ago, LA Grant said: A lot of the centrist establishment Democrats aren't learning anything from Hillary losing, unfortunately. They see the loss as solely the fault of the Russian interference, rather than her being a flawed candidate running a flawed campaign. Of course, all of these can be true, there's more than one factor at play. To the left, Hillary's main offense is that she is politically more of a Republican except for one or two issues (or rather, what a Republican used to be). Her main offense to the reactionary right (ever since she was merely a First Lady w/ ambition) was in being a mouthy woman they don't want to f*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Azalin said: They're links to decidedly right-leaning sources, and he makes no bones about that. If you think that's worth ridicule, then you're too juvenile to waste time with. It is worth ridicule. These fringe, unethical media outlets are a major reason why debating with the right has become increasingly impossible. We can't even agree on the dictionary definitions of "store" or "disease." But because both the NYT and Freedomguns.biz are both posted on Facebook, they are both equally reputable. It's madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 1 minute ago, LA Grant said: It is worth ridicule. These fringe, unethical media outlets are a major reason why debating with the right has become increasingly impossible. We can't even agree on the dictionary definitions of "store" or "disease." But because both the NYT and Freedomguns.biz are both posted on Facebook, they are both equally reputable. It's madness. No, madness is outsourcing your own free thought to the "experts" and "professionals" in the journalism field without doing your own due diligence. That's what's gotten us into a world of "alternative facts". Laziness. Heaven forbid people think for themselves... what a crazy world that would be, am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Just now, Deranged Rhino said: No, madness is outsourcing your own free thought to the "experts" and "professionals" in the journalism field without doing your own due diligence. That's what's gotten us into a world of "alternative facts". Laziness. Heaven forbid people think for themselves... what a crazy world that would be, am I right? Individual thought involves a direct respect for the individual, and their rights. Grant is a leftist who doesn't believe in the value of either of those things. Grant believes people should think, and do as they are told by the authority which governs their lives, and which just so happens to agree with him ideologically. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, LA Grant said: It is worth ridicule. These fringe, unethical media outlets are a major reason why debating with the right has become increasingly impossible. We can't even agree on the dictionary definitions of "store" or "disease." But because both the NYT and Freedomguns.biz are both posted on Facebook, they are both equally reputable. It's madness. Not surprisingly, I disagree. Just because a news or opinion outlet has a political bent to it doesn't make it unethical, it just makes it biased. You think all journalism isn't biased to one extent or another? And I would find it interesting to hear your definition of exactly what "the right" in America is, because you very obviously believe in limiting constitutional liberties as you see fit, while enforcing those policies through a heavy-handed centralized authority. How is that not right-wing philosophy in the same vein as Mussolini's Fascists? Edited March 2, 2018 by Azalin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, Azalin said: Not surprisingly, I disagree. Just because a news or opinion outlet has a political bent to it doesn't make it unethical, it just makes it biased. You think all journalism isn't biased to one extent or another? And I would find it interesting to hear your definition of exactly what "the right" in America is, because you very obviously believe in limiting constitutional liberties as you see fit, while enforcing those policies through a heavy-handed centralized authority. How is that not right-wing philosophy in the same vein as Mussolini's Fascists? Because fascism is a left leaning philosophy for starters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 9 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Because fascism is a left leaning philosophy for starters. it's complicated, more of a circle than a linear balance for left and right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Just now, row_33 said: it's complicated, more of a circle than a linear balance for left and right Not really. It's about the proper role of the state vs the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Not really. It's about the proper role of the state vs the individual. that's your view down there... and it's a very very good one... But i'll add into my mix the Canadian and British view of things, a little more open to Parliamentary debating style and again everyone who is publicly electable is an historic liberal in the US, your union leaders didn't budge from the capitalist line the whole 20th century.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Just now, TakeYouToTasker said: Not really. It's about the proper role of the state vs the individual. I've always considered Mussolini's Italy to be a leftist regime, but one that imposes the rule of law through excessive, oppressive means - something I've always viewed, possibly incorrectly, as being "right wing". My wife's family lives in Madrid, and her mother talks of the days when Franco was in power. They considered his government to be right wing, and consider themselves to be leftists for supporting the more libertarian philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Just now, Deranged Rhino said: No, madness is outsourcing your own free thought to the "experts" and "professionals" in the journalism field without doing your own due diligence. That's what's gotten us into a world of "alternative facts". Laziness. Heaven forbid people think for themselves... what a crazy world that would be, am I right? Agreed, we should not outsource our thoughts to others, but this would also include outlets that the right would claim as experts/professionals. Due diligence would include a rational approach in considering different sources & their validity. Perhaps it could be argued that the left, or that I personally, adhere dogmatically to the mainstream media. Our minds are controlled by the globalists! That would be dishonest, and to be clear, similarly I am not saying you, yourself, are only reading the op-eds and partisan hackery that B-Man posts; perhaps you also read the papers with trained journalists, and prefer the alternative take. That's your right, and to belabor the sh*t out of the point even more (to avoid it being misconstrued by the dishonest among us), I'm also not saying that alternative media has no use, or is always wrong. Or that the mainstream media is always right and should be the only thing. It's not that black & white, obviously. That's a lot of saying what I'm not saying before getting to what I am saying, which is simply that facts have to matter, at some point. We have to have some collective trust in something, if not an individual institution, than at least a code of ethics, or we're just arguing what "store" means. The loss of trust in an objective "truth" is doing far more damage to our society than Tasker's nightmare fantasy of gun control leading to someone walking into his home in Rhode Island and taking his Xbox or whatever. Instead, what we are seeing increasingly, is a rise of dogmatic tribalistic histrionics. ON BOTH SIDES. Right, yes? We agree that we have seen this? So if we are "post-truth" with our media, at the very least, we could be honest as individuals. Unlike, for example... 2 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Individual thought involves a direct respect for the individual, and their rights. Grant is a leftist who doesn't believe in the value of either of those things. Grant believes people should think, and do as they are told by the authority which governs their lives, and which just so happens to agree with him ideologically. 20 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Because fascism is a left leaning philosophy for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, Azalin said: I've always considered Mussolini's Italy to be a leftist regime, but one that imposes the rule of law through excessive, oppressive means - something I've always viewed, possibly incorrectly, as being "right wing". My wife's family lives in Madrid, and her mother talks of the days when Franco was in power. They considered his government to be right wing, and consider themselves to be leftists for supporting the more libertarian philosophy. Look at it in terms of European political dynamics. The European "right" is very similar to the Alt-Right here. The Alt-Right is not right leaning. Look at their policy positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, LA Grant said: Agreed, we should not outsource our thoughts to others, but this would also include outlets that the right would claim as experts/professionals... Just asking this for a reference point - but how old were you in 2001? You don't need to be specific, but were you out of high school? I ask this in order to see if my next question about the Iraq war is worth asking (not as a trap or trying to argue) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: Just asking this for a reference point - but how old were you in 2001? You don't need to be specific, but were you out of high school? I ask this in order to see if my next question about the Iraq war is worth asking (not as a trap or trying to argue) I'm not even convinced he's out of high school now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 32 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Look at it in terms of European political dynamics. The European "right" is very similar to the Alt-Right here. The Alt-Right is not right leaning. Look at their policy positions. It doesn't work for Left/Right definitions, especially when American libs tar everything they don't like as right. It was a stupid category declaration in the first place based on the French Revolution how does one possibly pick a side for the Fr Rev or the Spanish Civil War just before WW2 and try to convert it to 2018 in North America?? at least with some semblance of logic for people who have an IQ over 100? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 35 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Look at it in terms of European political dynamics. The European "right" is very similar to the Alt-Right here. The Alt-Right is not right leaning. Look at their policy positions. Point taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 12 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: Just asking this for a reference point - but how old were you in 2001? You don't need to be specific, but were you out of high school? I ask this in order to see if my next question about the Iraq war is worth asking (not as a trap or trying to argue) I'm an adult in his 30s and I was in high school in 2001. How old were you? I understand the point about the Iraq War & I agree that many mainstream media journalists shoulder some of that blame for their role in the dissemination of bad information. I have many critiques of the mainstream media beyond that, too — lobbing softball questions to protect their access, for one, when what we need more than anything is some hardcore grilling. Sometimes that comes from the alternative press, which is necessary. But there is a tendency (not saying necessarily from you personally) to outright dismiss outlets that have earned our trust, including the NY Times, for their occasional failures, and suggest that because they can be fallible, then they are entirely unreliable, and therefore, we cannot trust the mainstream media at all, and can only trust the alternative press. To their credit, the NY Times at least owned up to their mistakes for not pressing further. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-the-times-and-iraq.html If we saw this same level of ownership & responsibility from the alternative outlets, particularly the ones pushing partisan talking points (left & right), then perhaps an ethical comparison is justified. As it is, what I'm seeing is the exact opposite — it's doubling down on conspiracy theories like "Sandy Hook was staged," or "NFL players are protesting bc they want white genocide," or now with Q-anon.... and then when those things turn out to be entirely false, there's just this shrug like it never happened. In the interest of fair & balanced, Alex Jones did fess up to lying about Pizzagate at least... so I guess we could say then that InfoWars and the NYT are equally reputable? Idk, what do you think? https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/26/521545788/conspiracy-theorist-alex-jones-apologizes-for-promoting-pizzagate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 the Alt-Right is of zero real public political consequence in the US presently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 47 minutes ago, row_33 said: It doesn't work for Left/Right definitions, especially when American libs tar everything they don't like as right. It was a stupid category declaration in the first place based on the French Revolution how does one possibly pick a side for the Fr Rev or the Spanish Civil War just before WW2 and try to convert it to 2018 in North America?? at least with some semblance of logic for people who have an IQ over 100? Why does everybody keep leaving gator out of the equation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 13 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: Why does everybody keep leaving gator out of the equation? Poli-Sci has to have some kind of legit meaning even to those of us who quit the study after a frosh elective that we thought would be a lot easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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