This is not a rebuild, folks...

[JohnC]

ah. i just thought you meant in general. when referring to rex, i can't argue with that.

The context was in the Pegula era. It was an inexplicable decision.

[teef]

The context was in the Pegula era. It was an inexplicable decision.

i assume they were just enamored with his biosterousness. rex likely comes on strong in an interview, and i'm sure he had their heads filled with ideas of a quick turn around and playoff greatness. not to give the pegulas a pass on it, but at least it looks like things are being handled differently now. who knows though.

[BADOLBILZ]

With respect to the highlighted segment who is debating otherwise. The owners didn't end the dysfunction in the organization after they took over, they increased it, especially with their peculiar Rex hire. It was chaos wrapped over with more chaos. Now you are proclaiming that house fire is a house on fire and making it out as if it is an original discovery. It' not. It's known to all who aren't indoctrinated zealots.

 

Shaw66's list of post Rex moves are all sensible. The coaching and front office hires all fall in the category of being good hires.

they all fall comfortably within the range of being conventional transactions. What is there to criticize? Do you want the owners to wear the Scarlet Letter on their chest for the rest of their lives because of their gross ineptitude when they first took over as owners?

 

Pointing out the missteps that the Pegulas have made is not a challenging task because most of us are already aware of them. It's seems that any current transaction that is made by them is now referenced and re-framed by you by their bumbling history. That not only makes no sense but also adds nothing new to the discussion.

 

I'm not a fawning fan of this organization. Contrary to most desperate optimists I believe that it is going to take at a minimum three years to untangle the mess that has accrued during the not so long takeover by the new owners. I still have qualms over empowering the wrestling coach with so much authority so soom. But what I am not going to do is to judge everything that is now being done and let it be colored by what has gone on in the past. That not only makes no sense and is unfair but it is also unadulterated foolishness.

 

John when you see CLEAR mismanagement and an abhorrent track record by the owner it colors expectations of more subjective/tbd management decisions like the recent hirings.

 

We aren't talking about a distant past, it was a matter of months ago that Terry Pegula had the dumpster fire at peak btu output.

 

Are McDermott and co great hires? Perhaps but neither THEIR modest track records or TP's awful one suggest that is likely.

 

The issue with Shaw's take was downplaying the very recent past.............when it's that awful past that rightfully causes considerable skepticism.

 

The fans don't need to buy into McDermott.......the players do.

[thebandit27]

 

John when you see CLEAR mismanagement and an abhorrent track record by the owner it colors expectations of more subjective/tbd management decisions like the recent hirings.

 

We aren't talking about a distant past, it was a matter of months ago that Terry Pegula had the dumpster fire at peak btu output.

 

 

 

You have to admit: in light of where they were, the recent FO hires (Gaines, Hickey, Schoen) certainly give the impression that Beane is looking to establish organizational credibility in a hurry.

 

Now, obviously appearances can be deceiving, but IMO it's a good start for him.

Edited May 22, 2017 by thebandit27

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

how does someone know a coaching hire or a pick is bad right when it happens?

Rex Ryan

D Marrone, beyond that ??

[John from Riverside]

 

John when you see CLEAR mismanagement and an abhorrent track record by the owner it colors expectations of more subjective/tbd management decisions like the recent hirings.

 

We aren't talking about a distant past, it was a matter of months ago that Terry Pegula had the dumpster fire at peak btu output.

 

Are McDermott and co great hires? Perhaps but neither THEIR modest track records or TP's awful one suggest that is likely.

 

The issue with Shaw's take was downplaying the very recent past.............when it's that awful past that rightfully causes considerable skepticism.

 

The fans don't need to buy into McDermott.......the players do.

Thought the link about McD not being happy with the organization and intensity of training camp when they looked at video was interesting

 

I mean...the comments were about as nicely as you can put without throwing another coach under the bus.....it was more like "WTF are they walking around for...its PRACTICE"

 

Then I think back to the start of last season.....when the team seamed very unprepared for that first game against the Ravens....Tyrod had hardly played in pre season....the team didnt look ready

 

and we lost

 

I am a former high school/jr college coach....and in my humble opinion training camp and pre season (along with being dedicated year round) is WHERE you get yourself physically ready to play a violent sport....timing should have already been biult before you ever get to down 1 of the regular season....that means you have to make the most out of every practice minute.

 

I liked that McD was not happy

[buffalostu2]

How is this not a rebuild? New Coach and staff, new GM and administrative staff, new scouting staff and not to mention new Offensive and Defensive schemes. That is the entire organization. I wonder how they are even finding their way around the building.

 

What examples are there out there where this much change has occurred and found immediate success for a franchise? What is the normal timeline for the successful full scale changes?

 

For everyone who was clamoring for full scale change you are about to find out that change for the sake of change does not usually generate positive results (see original Obama campaign slogan).

[Shaw66]

 

If you really seek an answer to that last question then refer back to my earlier posts in this thread. Self explanatory.

 

And btw, Rex wasn't presented to them........they HIRED him. Seriously people, y'all are shameless with the bullsh*t.

 

Like I said, if it makes you feel better to lie to yourselves about the dysfunction then by all means do........just don't argue against the more sensible conclusions with nonsense and lies of omission and expect me to view it from your fantasy realm.

 

It's just not that important to me that I need to lie about it.

 

Terry P has been a lousy steward of the on-field/on-ice product.......it's not debatable.......but we can only hope that he either gets a lot better or hands over the reigns to someone more skilled and steps aside.

I'll reply to your ignorance once and give up.

 

If you read my post again, you'll see that it's very clear that I was talking about 2017. I know they hired Rex, but I'm not talking about that. We were talking about the quality of the Pegula's 2017 decision making because YOU said there was not reason to get excited about they did. I'm sorry you can't keep up with the train of thought long enough to understand what we are talking about.

 

So once more, we're talking about what the Pegulas have done since the first of the year. You said it wasn't anything important. I said they fired a dysfunctional coach, they fired a GM a lot of people wanted fired, they hired one the most highly rated coaching prospects to be HC. Their HC hired a very well respected collection of assistant coaches. They hired a bright young well respected GM candidate, and that's been followed by the hiring of several apparently qualified people to work under Beane.

 

Now, even you understand that no one actually knows if these guys will end up winning a lot of games for the Bills. But I asked you to tell us, with all your brilliance, why it's so obvious that these were all the wrong choices. Presumably that means you know who would have been better choices. So I'll ask once again, what is it that the Pegulas would have done that at this time, May 2017, would be obviously so much better than what they actually did.

 

And I looked back several pages and didn't see the answer to that question, despite your statement that I would.

[Shaw66]

How is this not a rebuild? New Coach and staff, new GM and administrative staff, new scouting staff and not to mention new Offensive and Defensive schemes. That is the entire organization. I wonder how they are even finding their way around the building.

 

What examples are there out there where this much change has occurred and found immediate success for a franchise? What is the normal timeline for the successful full scale changes?

 

For everyone who was clamoring for full scale change you are about to find out that change for the sake of change does not usually generate positive results (see original Obama campaign slogan).

How is this not a rebuild? I'll tell you, but you have to promise to use the word "rebuild" in the way that it is typically used in reference to sports franchises.

 

A rebuild is when the leadership of the team actively releases players, including good players who have multiple years left in their careers and who will play someplace else. It's an active decision to turn over the roster more rapidly that it would ordinarily turn over from the draft, free agency, cuts and retirements. It's a drastic change in personnel because the decision has been made to start over. The word also implies that management is consciously making the team worse in the short-run because they've decided the fastest way to get good is to start over.

 

Yes, using the the word "rebuild" in the generic, general English language sense, the front office has been rebuilt. But when sports fans talk about rebuilding a team, they're talking about the roster, not the front office.

 

There has been nothing, at least not yet, that is anything like a roster rebuild in Buffalo. Woods, Goodwin and Brown were pretty normal free agency departures - the Bills would have like to keep them, just not at the prices they were asking. They didn't leave because there was a conscious decision to start over.

 

This isn't a rebuild. Doesn't mean that there won't be one. A new GM and a new coach could decide in January that a thorough roster housecleaning is the best way to go forward, but they certainly aren't going to do that yet. You aren't going to cut talent at this time of year, because your opportunity to get talent is very small. All the good talent has been drafted or signed already. For example, a rebuild could result in guys like Incognito, Dareus and Hughes being cut. Imagine the headlines on ESPN and imagine the free agency frenzy that would start if those guys were cut. The league would be frantic to sign those guys. But the Bills would have no opportunity to replace them, because no other teams are releasing talent. It's very unlikely that a coach or GM would cut a bunch of guys like that at this time of year.

 

Now, I could imagine McDermott deciding in August he's fed up with a player, like a Dareus or a Hughes and just cut him, but that's not a rebuild. That's just a coach getting rid of someone he considers a bad apple.

 

So if there's going to be a rebuild, it'll be a 2018 rebuild.

[John from Riverside]

How is this not a rebuild? New Coach and staff, new GM and administrative staff, new scouting staff and not to mention new Offensive and Defensive schemes. That is the entire organization. I wonder how they are even finding their way around the building.

 

What examples are there out there where this much change has occurred and found immediate success for a franchise? What is the normal timeline for the successful full scale changes?

 

For everyone who was clamoring for full scale change you are about to find out that change for the sake of change does not usually generate positive results (see original Obama campaign slogan).

The falcons did ok with it

[jeffismagic]

The falcons did ok with it

Having Matt Ryan in place and Kyle Shanahan calling plays. Bills have neither.

[Augie]

Hard to answer this question without the exact definition of "rebuild". My interpretation, or yours? That could be two very different things.

Yes, new staff and FO, but we didn't kick players like Kyle to the curb to clean house. Rebuilt the FO more than the team. So yes and no (or at least not so much). Hope the new guys do as well as my optimistic side hopes they can to change the way we look as a team.

[Bill from NYC]

I'll reply to your ignorance once and give up.

 

If you read my post again, you'll see that it's very clear that I was talking about 2017. I know they hired Rex, but I'm not talking about that. We were talking about the quality of the Pegula's 2017 decision making because YOU said there was not reason to get excited about they did. I'm sorry you can't keep up with the train of thought long enough to understand what we are talking about.

 

So once more, we're talking about what the Pegulas have done since the first of the year. You said it wasn't anything important. I said they fired a dysfunctional coach, they fired a GM a lot of people wanted fired, they hired one the most highly rated coaching prospects to be HC. Their HC hired a very well respected collection of assistant coaches. They hired a bright young well respected GM candidate, and that's been followed by the hiring of several apparently qualified people to work under Beane.

 

Now, even you understand that no one actually knows if these guys will end up winning a lot of games for the Bills. But I asked you to tell us, with all your brilliance, why it's so obvious that these were all the wrong choices. Presumably that means you know who would have been better choices. So I'll ask once again, what is it that the Pegulas would have done that at this time, May 2017, would be obviously so much better than what they actually did.

 

And I looked back several pages and didn't see the answer to that question, despite your statement that I would.

Sorry to change the subject, but would you happen to know why the BBMB was shut down?

 

I was thinking that it might have happened due to boring, holier than thou, dull posters but I don't know for sure.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Bill from NYC

[JohnC]

 

John when you see CLEAR mismanagement and an abhorrent track record by the owner it colors expectations of more subjective/tbd management decisions like the recent hirings.

 

We aren't talking about a distant past, it was a matter of months ago that Terry Pegula had the dumpster fire at peak btu output.

 

Are McDermott and co great hires? Perhaps but neither THEIR modest track records or TP's awful one suggest that is likely.

 

The issue with Shaw's take was downplaying the very recent past.............when it's that awful past that rightfully causes considerable skepticism.

 

The fans don't need to buy into McDermott.......the players do.

You have avoided the simple question that Shaw66 has put to you: What recent front office and coaching hire has bothered you so much that you are out of hand rejecting it as a bad transaction? What recent player transaction has bothered you so much that you have already rejected it as being bad?

 

None of the people responding to your post has denied you the right to be skeptical. But when asked by Shaw66 and others what specific decision/s do you find so offensive that you out of hand reject it you vaguely respond about the history contaminating the present. That is a very thin response. There is nothing wrong with you being skeptical because I am to a lesser degree wary of the immediate empowering of the wrestling coach over the football operation. But even on that issue I am a little less troubled because the staff assembled in the front office seem to be high quality.

 

In my view this team is a few years away from being a serious team. So you are going to have plenty of time and opportunities to express your displeasure as to what is unfolding. However, it seems to me that the ground work that is being laid down in the beginning stage of this takeover is being down properly and smartly. Only time will tell.

[mannc]

You have avoided the simple question that Shaw66 has put to you: What recent front office and coaching hire has bothered you so much that you are out of hand rejecting it as a bad transaction? What recent player transaction has bothered you so much that you have already rejected it as being bad?

 

None of the people responding to your post has denied you the right to be skeptical. But when asked by Shaw66 and others what specific decision/s do you find so offensive that you out of hand reject it you vaguely respond about the history contaminating the present. That is a very thin response. There is nothing wrong with you being skeptical because I am to a lesser degree wary of the immediate empowering of the wrestling coach over the football operation. But even on that issue I am a little less troubled because the staff assembled in the front office seem to be high quality.

 

In my view this team is a few years away from being a serious team. So you are going to have plenty of time and opportunities to express your displeasure as to what is unfolding. However, it seems to me that the ground work that is being laid down in the beginning stage of this takeover is being down properly and smartly. Only time will tell.

I'm mostly in agreement. I'm willing to wait and see.

 

For those who were/are opposed to the McDermott hire, who would you have gone with instead?

[Dr. Who]

I'm mostly in agreement. I'm willing to wait and see.

 

For those who were/are opposed to the McDermott hire, who would you have gone with instead?

What I have been opposed to was the seeming large amount of power McD has acquired without having ever coached a down as an NFL head coach. The hiring of Beane seemed like he might be a croney hire that will rubber stamp whatever The Bald Ginger wants. However, the revamped front office now looks to have a number of highly regarded individuals, so I have dialed back my skepticism. I hope we got it right and generally echo John C's views.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

What I have been opposed to was the seeming large amount of power McD has acquired without having ever coached a down as an NFL head coach. The hiring of Beane seemed like he might be a croney hire that will rubber stamp whatever The Bald Ginger wants. However, the revamped front office now looks to have a number of highly regarded individuals, so I have dialed back my skepticism. I hope we got it right and generally echo John C's views.

What choices have we had

 

Not giving them power and giving them power.

 

Not giving them power doesn't seem to have worked.

[Dr. Who]

What choices have we had

 

Not giving them power and giving them power.

 

Not giving them power doesn't seem to have worked.

Usually, I think one has to be an established coach with a track record of success to get that kind of power.

I suppose we were not in a position to get that kind of coach. I'm certainly rooting for it to end well.

[JohnC]

Few years?

 

If they aren't showing progress by the end of year two then the pressure will be immense on McDermott and company.

 

You don't last long in this league without some what immediate results.

I make this conservative time judgment with confidence. Anyone who thinks that this rebuilding or reworking (whatever word one is comfortable with) of the roster is going to lead to a playoff game this year is going to be disappointed. If the Bills decide to draft a qb the next year do you expect immediate results? Let's get serious.

 

The mistake that has been made by this bedraggled franchise is that too often decisions have been made in order to get immediate results. With the hiring of the new front office and coaching staff and with our qb situation and his short term deal the organization is taking a less expedient approach and acting in a more long term and sustaining fashion. That is the right thing to do and that is what we should want. Making decisions on a short term basis simply to get by as a fringe wild-card contender is the approach that has crippled this franchise. Doing things the right way and for the rights reasons is the right thing to do. That isn't something to complain about---it is something that we should be happy about.

[Guest NeckBeard]

Sorry to change the subject, but would you happen to know why the BBMB was shut down?

 

I was thinking that it might have happened due to boring, holier than thou, dull posters but I don't know for sure.

 

As a former, and long-standing member of the BBMB, I had always thought it was the same 8-10 posters who couldn't get enough of needling one another. But I do agree with the holier than thou aspect you have mentioned.

 

As to Shaw's points, earlier in this thread, Shaw agreed with me that rebuilding in the NFL might have a different context now, but now Shaw has changed their mind. Odd.