Whaley has done a better job of drafting than Pats

[WhoTom]

So the original poster is saying that it is easier for draft picks to win a roster spot on the Buffalo Bills, who haven't been to the playoffs this century, then it is to win a roster spot on the world champion New England Patriots. I guess that proves Whaley was a genius.

 

All stats need to be viewed in context, and you just provided the context.

[respk]

 

I looked at the number of players we drafted from 2013-2016, how many remained with the team, and how many are still in NFL. The latter is very important because that is an indicator of your "ability" to spot talent in the drafts. I then compared your performance to that of our esteemed rivals, New England Patriots. And the results are interesting:

In those 4 years we drafted 28 players to Pats' 36. Of the 28, 15 still remain with the team as of today. That's 54%. Looking at the pats, of the 36, 18 players are still on their roster as of today. So we have exceeded Pats' team retention by 4%. Nice.

Now let's look at over-all talent evaluation. How many of our players are still on NFL rosters, vs. those who are no longer NFL players. Of the 28 players we drafted, 24 are still in the league, or 86%. Of the 36 players the esteemed Pats drafted, only 27 remain in the NFL. That's 75%. Here, Bills and Whaley have outperformed World Champions by 11% points.

 

Doug, it is clear now. it's not your fault this team hasn't won. You can only bring them in. You aren't the one coaching them.

 

 

 

Kind of like winning the off season.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

I looked at the number of players we drafted from 2013-2016, how many remained with the team, and how many are still in NFL. The latter is very important because that is an indicator of your "ability" to spot talent in the drafts. I then compared your performance to that of our esteemed rivals, New England Patriots. And the results are interesting:

 

CBF, I love you :wub: :wub: but the bottom line is winning. The Pats are the team to beat in the AFC and the AFC east, and until we do, it recks of sour grapes to put forth any metric that says we're better.

 

Certainly "# drafted players with the team" only means anything if those players are winning. I was not a fan of that Tim Graham article.

He drafted EJ Manuel, has said so in the debacle interview, that was his undoing. You draft a failure as QB and you won't last long in the league. All other picks are meaningless, if the GM selects a QB and he fails, that will be said GM's undoing or at least it should be in most cases.

 

If that were the case, then there'd be a whole lot more GMs walking out the door than there are, and I disagree that it "should be".

 

50% of 1st round QB fail. Slightly less at the top of the round, more like 2/3 at the bottom of the round and the 2nd/3rd rounds.

 

The problem for the Bills, isn't that they drafted a 1st round failure, it's that they FAILED TO DRAFT A QB BEFORE AND AFTER THAT PICK and failure to do enough to address the position through FA and trades.

Compare and contrast to Philly.

When reading about his positives it mentions incognito and tyrod both where Rex's doing....the shady trade fell into his lap as it was chip Kelly's idea and it wasn't a hard sell. The only thing I would consider his might be the Hughes trade, Lorenzo signing and brown

 

It always amazes me how posters here (and sometimes news media) display so much certainty about who did what.

 

Whaley wasn't GM when EJ was picked, but that's all on him. Whaley WAS GM when Incognito and Taylor were signed but that's 0% on him. Riiiiiiiight.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

In the NFL I assume it's not unusual to get terminated every once and again. At 44 having already been a GM, I can only expect doors will continue to open for Doug.

 

Amp summarizes well: Whales era marked by strategic failure and tactical success.

 

This fits the pattern. Doug was able to put together a decent 53 each year, and has shown a penchant for unearthing UFA gems. Moreover, looking at the differences in this draft and the last few, I believe there is a divergence in philosophy that pushed Doug out the door. Doug drafts took character risks for athletes, this years group seems to favor leadership and acedemic Achievement. Guys are all a lot cleaner than I feel like we have seen in the past.

 

That's where patriots win. The Strategic plan is almost always on point, even amidst tactical gaffes.

[mjt328]

 

I looked at the number of players we drafted from 2013-2016, how many remained with the team, and how many are still in NFL. The latter is very important because that is an indicator of your "ability" to spot talent in the drafts. I then compared your performance to that of our esteemed rivals, New England Patriots. And the results are interesting:

In those 4 years we drafted 28 players to Pats' 36. Of the 28, 15 still remain with the team as of today. That's 54%. Looking at the pats, of the 36, 18 players are still on their roster as of today. So we have exceeded Pats' team retention by 4%. Nice.

Now let's look at over-all talent evaluation. How many of our players are still on NFL rosters, vs. those who are no longer NFL players. Of the 28 players we drafted, 24 are still in the league, or 86%. Of the 36 players the esteemed Pats drafted, only 27 remain in the NFL. That's 75%. Here, Bills and Whaley have outperformed World Champions by 11% points.

 

Doug, it is clear now. it's not your fault this team hasn't won. You can only bring them in. You aren't the one coaching them.

 

 

The Patriots are an average drafting team, and have been for a very long time. Their success is built mostly on Tom Brady at QB, and Bill Belichick's unbelievable ability to get production from decent "role players." Once Brady/Belichick are gone, that team is going to fall hard.

 

If you don't have a Hall of Fame QB or Head Coach, your standards for drafting must be higher. Especially when your team is constantly picking Top 10-15.

 

Doug Whaley hasn't been a complete train wreck in the draft. He usually lands 1-2 solid players each year. Which is enough to keep us floating around .500, but not enough to push us over the top. To stay a contender, I believe a GM needs to land a franchise QB and consistently get (at least) 3 solid starters per draft.

[Elite Poster]

I think it's well established Belichick does not draft well. He just GOT LUCKY. Also, he's a damn good defensive coordinator.

[Thurman#1]

 

I looked at the number of players we drafted from 2013-2016, how many remained with the team, and how many are still in NFL. The latter is very important because that is an indicator of your "ability" to spot talent in the drafts. I then compared your performance to that of our esteemed rivals, New England Patriots. And the results are interesting:

In those 4 years we drafted 28 players to Pats' 36. Of the 28, 15 still remain with the team as of today. That's 54%. Looking at the pats, of the 36, 18 players are still on their roster as of today. So we have exceeded Pats' team retention by 4%. Nice.

Now let's look at over-all talent evaluation. How many of our players are still on NFL rosters, vs. those who are no longer NFL players. Of the 28 players we drafted, 24 are still in the league, or 86%. Of the 36 players the esteemed Pats drafted, only 27 remain in the NFL. That's 75%. Here, Bills and Whaley have outperformed World Champions by 11% points.

 

Doug, it is clear now. it's not your fault this team hasn't won. You can only bring them in. You aren't the one coaching them.

 

 

 

 

 

It's an awful lot harder to make the Pats roster than the Bills roster.

 

And 2013 was not a Whaley draft, it was a Nix draft.

 

As for Bills - Pats, you've noticed the Bills consistently draft around 10th and the Pats around 27th to 32nd, right?

 

Bills 2014: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, two sevenths (4, 44, 73,109, 153, 221, 237)

Pats 2014: 1st, 2nd, three 4ths, three 6ths, 7th (29, 62, 105, 130, 140, 179, 198, 206, 244)

 

Bills 2015: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, two 6ths, 7th (50, 81, 155, 188, 194, 234)

Pats 2015: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, three 4ths, 5th, two 6ths, two 7ths (32, 64, 97, 101, 111, 131, 166, 178, 202, 247, 253)

 

Bills 2016: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, two 6ths (19, 41, 80, 139, 156, 192, 218)

Pats 2016: 2nd, three 3rds, 4th, three 6ths, 7th (60, 78, 91, 96, 112, 208, 214, 221, 225)

 

The Bills averaged far higher picks. It's much harder for the Pats.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Thurman#1

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

 

I looked at the number of players we drafted from 2013-2016, how many remained with the team, and how many are still in NFL. The latter is very important because that is an indicator of your "ability" to spot talent in the drafts. I then compared your performance to that of our esteemed rivals, New England Patriots. And the results are interesting:

In those 4 years we drafted 28 players to Pats' 36. Of the 28, 15 still remain with the team as of today. That's 54%. Looking at the pats, of the 36, 18 players are still on their roster as of today. So we have exceeded Pats' team retention by 4%. Nice.

Now let's look at over-all talent evaluation. How many of our players are still on NFL rosters, vs. those who are no longer NFL players. Of the 28 players we drafted, 24 are still in the league, or 86%. Of the 36 players the esteemed Pats drafted, only 27 remain in the NFL. That's 75%. Here, Bills and Whaley have outperformed World Champions by 11% points.

 

Doug, it is clear now. it's not your fault this team hasn't won. You can only bring them in. You aren't the one coaching them.

 

 

Wow - all of our players are on other people's teams? Cool! Probably because we extended some of the wrong players, and our cap has been hamstrung for 4 years because of it. He should shoulder much of the blame for that.

 

Also - they trade players on expiring deals a fair amount. That gives them extra picks. That gives you more chances to hit. 18 players on the roster vs our 15. From 2012 - Gilmore walks, we MIGHT get a 2018 comp pick - they trade Chandler Jones for a 2016 2nd.

 

Collins would have walked in 2017, giving them a CHANCE for a 2018 comp pick if they weren't active in FA. Instead they traded Collins for a 2017 3rd and were as active as they wanted to be in FA.

 

They also didn't have a first round pick last year, who almost assuredly would be on their roster.

Edited May 1, 2017 by dneveu

[Thurman#1]

When reading about his positives it mentions incognito and tyrod both where Rex's doing....the shady trade fell into his lap as it was chip Kelly's idea and it wasn't a hard sell. The only thing I would consider his might be the Hughes trade, Lorenzo signing and brown

 

 

 

The Hughes trade happened on Nix's watch.

 

But he gets the credit for the Shady trade. He said yes. Could've said no.

[QuoteTheRaven83]

Patriots lucked out with Tom Brady. That's the only difference.

[BillsVet]

Results matter and Doug Whaley didn't get results. Sure, he didn't have the perfect situation with which to be successful, but he had a whole lot more to work with than many of his predecessors. I can't imagine him having to work under the constricted spending that occurred during the RW years. Imagine having to trade your only All-Pro player because they couldn't come to terms on an agreement. Imagine having Overdorf release players out from under you.

 

The new ownership who inherited him did what they're allowed to do. Now it's on Coach McD.

 

30-34 is all that matters.

[zow2]

I think it's well established Belichick does not draft well. He just GOT LUCKY. Also, he's a damn good defensive coordinator.

Yes, agree. He's a great D-Coordinator and with in-game adjustments. Also runs a tight ship and commands respect from his team. But yeah, he got so lucky with Tom Brady

[BuffaloHokie13]

He drafted EJ Manuel, has said so in the debacle interview, that was his undoing. You draft a failure as QB and you won't last long in the league. All other picks are meaningless, if the GM selects a QB and he fails, that will be said GM's undoing or at least it should be in most cases.

 

It wasn't the pick that was his undoing, QBs don't work out very often. But it was his persistence in backing the pick rather than continuing to improve the position that undid him.

[TSOL]

Watch the Patriots hire Whaley where he and Belichick will be building Superbowl winning rosters for 15 MORE years to come.

[Bills Pimpin']

 

I looked at the number of players we drafted from 2013-2016, how many remained with the team, and how many are still in NFL. The latter is very important because that is an indicator of your "ability" to spot talent in the drafts. I then compared your performance to that of our esteemed rivals, New England Patriots. And the results are interesting:

In those 4 years we drafted 28 players to Pats' 36. Of the 28, 15 still remain with the team as of today. That's 54%. Looking at the pats, of the 36, 18 players are still on their roster as of today. So we have exceeded Pats' team retention by 4%. Nice.

Now let's look at over-all talent evaluation. How many of our players are still on NFL rosters, vs. those who are no longer NFL players. Of the 28 players we drafted, 24 are still in the league, or 86%. Of the 36 players the esteemed Pats drafted, only 27 remain in the NFL. That's 75%. Here, Bills and Whaley have outperformed World Champions by 11% points.

 

Doug, it is clear now. it's not your fault this team hasn't won. You can only bring them in. You aren't the one coaching them.

 

Not only is this the worst indication of how a GM has performed that I have ever seen, it doesn't take into account all of the managerial duties a GM has to perform on a day to day basis. The GM is a high level position and Doug Whaley does not act or perform as a high level employee. I would agree he is high level scout and will perform those duties well in another organization. IMO he will not be a GM.

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

He drafted EJ Manuel, has said so in the debacle interview, that was his undoing. You draft a failure as QB and you won't last long in the league. All other picks are meaningless, if the GM selects a QB and he fails, that will be said GM's undoing or at least it should be in most cases.

This makes no sense and is old school logic. First rounders don't cost you nearly what they used too. I give him more credit for trying to find a QB rather than missing on one. He also brought us a ton of cheap Free Agents who ended up doing extremely well. He has brought more talent to the Bills than any other GM in the last 20 years or so. There are 4 reason IMO that he could have possibly been fired and none had to do with bringing in good players.

 

1. Not easy to get a long with and not a team player with the owners and coach "rumors that he was difficult to get a long with"

2. He had more to do with the Rex hire than perceived "I heard these rumors go both ways"

3. Our New head coach simply wants to work with someone he is more comfortable with or knows "probably the reason IMO"

4. Buffalo media bashed him so hard and had the majority of fans in an uproar "worst reason if true"

So the original poster is saying that it is easier for draft picks to win a roster spot on the Buffalo Bills, who haven't been to the playoffs this century, then it is to win a roster spot on the world champion New England Patriots. I guess that proves Whaley was a genius

Super Bowl team mainly because they have the best QB of all time. Buffalo has had far superior talent. Even that bum Hogan looks good with Brady throwing him the ball. Put him on any other team and no one would hear from him again.

[HappyDays]

 

This mindset is so stupid to me. You can't find a QB if you don't try to get one. GMs from all teams try - and fail more times than they succeed. Look around the league. Look at the history of the position.

 

Or ... you know ... just say something stupid that makes no effing sense. That's a lot easier, isn't it.

EJ was widely seen as unlikely to ever make it and a huge reach in the 1st round. But picking him wasn't Whaley's worst sin, it was continually standing by him even after it was painfully obvious he was not the answer. He didn't draft another QB as competition until Cardale Jones in the 4th round three years after the fact. He traded away a future 1st round pick for a WR in a draft that had two top 10 WRs drafted lower in Evans and Beckham. That same year Bridgewater and Carr were drafted too. On top of his draft problems, he has badly mismanaged the cap which left us paying more into our cap than some teams that have more talent than us.

 

I mean really, what was Whaley's big claim to fame here? Ronald Darby was probably the best draft pick he had in his time here. It's a good pick but that was the pinnacle of what he did and the rest of his drafting leaves much to be desired. He was good at pro scouting but that isn't enough to be the GM. I didn't hate Whaley but I'm also not upset to see him go. We can do better.

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

True, but did you ever watch EJ play at FSU? There is a reason he wasn't viewed as a first round pick. Even his college coach basically said he wouldn't be a successful pro. It's one thing to miss on a QB, it's another to simply make a bad pick.

 

The poster is correct that QB's get GM's fired as well. You don't have to agree with the practice, but he is correct. That is exactly my answer for the OP. That is why the Pats GM still has a job while Whaley doesn't. The Pats GM doesn't have to do as well drafting as Whaley. He has more leeway because he has Brady. Whaley didn't have Brady, and as a result more was required of him to make the team a winner. The Pats GM doesn't have to do as much to make the team a winner. He has Brady. It's a bottom line business measured in wins and losses. No one cares how you get those wins. If you don't get those wins you are done.

How many teams lead the league in rushing 2 years in a row and score over 24 points a game and don't make the playoffs? He can't help if the Pegula's hired a piece of crap Rex Ryan who ruined our defense. Blame this on Whaley, why not the owners did... "ridiculous"

 

Well, to paraphrase Buddy Nix: if you have a franchise QB, you look like a genius no matter what.

+1

[Kirby Jackson]

I don't think that anyone has ever said that the Patriots drafted well. They don't. What they do extremely well is elevating depth vets. They find system guys and plug them in. That is much easier to project from guys that have been in the league than guys coming out of college.

 

The Bills have drafted okay. They've been middle of the league(ish) for a while. They have some talent and some holes. They've traditionally done well with depth vets as well (although I'm not sure about this year). The Bills issue is the constant scheme changes and they were REALLY poorly coached last year. I expect the coaching to improve but I think that the talent on the roster this year is a little worse than last year. I would say that the offensive talent has upgraded and he defense downgraded.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

How many teams lead the league in rushing 2 years in a row and score over 24 points a game and don't make the playoffs? He can't help if the Pegula's hired a piece of crap Rex Ryan who ruined our defense. Blame this on Whaley, why not the owners did... "ridiculous"

 

+1

Rex Ryan was terrible, but he had nothing to do with how bad the EJ Manuel pick was. I was commenting on another poster who said its wasn't Whaley's fault that Manuel failed. Plenty of QB's fail and there is no way the GM can know they were going to fail. In Manuel's case it was a bad pick from the start. Rex Ryan and how he ruined the team is another debate completely. I don't disagree, but ultimately the GM is the captain of the ship. When the ship sinks the captain takes the fall.

I don't think that anyone has ever said that the Patriots drafted well. They don't. What they do extremely well is elevating depth vets. They find system guys and plug them in. That is much easier to project from guys that have been in the league than guys coming out of college.

 

The Bills have drafted okay. They've been middle of the league(ish) for a while. They have some talent and some holes. They've traditionally done well with depth vets as well (although I'm not sure about this year). The Bills issue is the constant scheme changes and they were REALLY poorly coached last year. I expect the coaching to improve but I think that the talent on the roster this year is a little worse than last year. I would say that the offensive talent has upgraded and he defense downgraded.

Well said. Honestly it's simply easier to be GM when you have Tom Brady compared to those who don't. Some jobs are more difficult than others. Other GM's have more challenges. As Pats GM you just build around the BB/Brady system. Other GM's are constantly working on building a system of their own. When you have the Pats system you don't have to draft as well as mediocre teams. Simply find a few right pieces and everything will look great. Edited May 1, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5