QB comparative data for Tyrod from Cian Fahey to discuss

[Shaw66]

I very clearly said I think he's better.

 

On pure talent for the position I think Tyrod is better. I also think you're looking too deeply into what I said. Fitz was on a garbage team with very little quality talent and Tyrod has been fortunate enough to be in a better situation.

 

I never said otherwise...

 

So if your agree that Taylor is certainly better, what is the point of comparing receivers? Why did you raise that?

 

I'm not arguing with you, I just don't understand. Why does it matter what kind of receivers they were throwing to if you, too, agree that Taylor is better? The only think I can think of is that you mean that Taylor, adjusted for receivers, is only a little bit better. But even that doesn't make sense, because throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eric Decker, Fitzpatrick STILL couldn't put up a better season than Taylor's worst.

I think many of us need to get together in person, with water balloons and have these exact topics as discussions.

 

The get together should be on a warm day and outside.

I like it. I want Taylor throwing with all his supporters, so everyone on the other team can get a first-hand look at how he throws over the middle and anticipates.

[Royale with Cheese]

So if your agree that Taylor is certainly better, what is the point of comparing receivers? Why did you raise that?

 

I'm not arguing with you, I just don't understand. Why does it matter what kind of receivers they were throwing to if you, too, agree that Taylor is better? The only think I can think of is that you mean that Taylor, adjusted for receivers, is only a little bit better. But even that doesn't make sense, because throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eric Decker, Fitzpatrick STILL couldn't put up a better season than Taylor's worst.

 

I like it. I want Taylor throwing with all his supporters, so everyone on the other team can get a first-hand look at how he throws over the middle and anticipates.

Let's book a venue!

[transplantbillsfan]

What happened to you Foxx, you used to root for the team. People are getting a liiiiiiittle too invested in this. A good practice should be a positive thing for all Bills fans, not an excuse to make a dig at a player.

I think Foxx has been having a little fun to some degree taking on this Persona...

 

I hope at least...

[JM2009]

Was the board down for a bit?

[HappyDays]

Was the board down for a bit?

Yup. I thought it had gone the way of BBMB

[JM2009]

Yup. I thought it had gone the way of BBMB

Me too! lol

[transplantbillsfan]

Fitz is more of a gamer compared to Tyrod.

When judging these two I'll use the 300 games of TT vrs Fitz and it isn't even a battle, Tyrod is on the bench wishing for a OT to get that 300 once while Fitz is fighting throwing INTs to get more then 10xs that. Eitherway they both are just not good enough, too bad we couldn't have the two of them cloned into one.

 

Hooray for 300 yard games as the measure to end all measures!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MIAuac3WdrQ

 

Let's all just hope Taylor doesn't come out with another "We're ready" video the night before our week 1 game against the Jets

The premise of what I'm saying is not wrong when the discussion wasn't about his 17 TD passes. We are talking about the 143 throws that they claimed TT was under pressure on...the TD throws are a small sampling of that.

 

What you would need in order to claim I'm missing the mark would be to chart all of those throws and give me a number on how many he stood in and completed without using his athleticism.

 

When you do that and show me an amount that would "encourage" me, then you would be correct saying what you said.

 

I don't need to do that at all. Nice try, though.

 

The TD passes and interceptions themselves, for that matter, demonstrate that these numbers are incorporating passes in the pocket as well as outside the pocket from Taylor.

 

And just from watching his TDs and INTs alone, you can see that Taylor's tendency was actually to stay in the pocket and deliver the ball even with pressure coming.

 

There were absolutely passes and plays where he evaded pressure and left the pocket and then delivered the ball, like his 2nd TD pass in the Jets game, but then there were those passes where he stood tall in the pocket with a defender (often) barreling directly at him in full sight and he delivered, like his TD pass to Goodwin in the 1st 'Phins game. And you just watch the TDs and INTs he threw and you can see that Taylor had no problems in the pocket in the midst of pressure.

 

You're just in extreme denial if you're calling for every single pass at this point.

[Foxx]

What happened to you Foxx, you used to root for the team. People are getting a liiiiiiittle too invested in this. A good practice should be a positive thing for all Bills fans, not an excuse to make a dig at a player.

oh, i still root for the team, HD. and always will come hell or high water. that doesn't mean i can't be critical. would you be happier if we all sang kumbiah while sitting in a hand basket on the way to hell?

 

i don't put a whole lot of stock in mini-camp performances or training-camp performances. respective squads are just going through the motions for the most part. what i take more notice of is poor performances during these camps. if the QB can't preform at a high level against guys giving half effort, then you have a problem.

[Bangarang]

So if your agree that Taylor is certainly better, what is the point of comparing receivers? Why did you raise that?

 

I'm not arguing with you, I just don't understand. Why does it matter what kind of receivers they were throwing to if you, too, agree that Taylor is better? The only think I can think of is that you mean that Taylor, adjusted for receivers, is only a little bit better. But even that doesn't make sense, because throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eric Decker, Fitzpatrick STILL couldn't put up a better season than Taylor's worst.

 

It doesn't matter. I only asked him how he thought Tyrod would have done if put in a similar situation as Fitz. You're putting way too much thought into this.

[Foxx]

... So look at Matt Ryan, someone who probably isn't a hall of famer but definitely is a franchise qb. Passer rating over 93. Career splits: 4th quarter, 85. When tied or losing with less than 4 and 2 minutes to go, passer rating in the 40s and 60s! Tied generally 95, trailing generally 90. So compared to Matt Ryan, Tyrod looks like he's right there.

 

How about Aaron Rodgers? Career rating 104. Fourth quarter 102. Tied or trailing with 4 or 2 minutes left, 115, 94, 65, 76. 107 tied generally, 99 trailing. So Rodgers performs at the end of games about as he does at other times. ...

oh boy.

 

this... is exactly why stats do not tell you the complete story. the rest of the post is very questionable as well.

 

Was the board down for a bit?

Yup. I thought it had gone the way of BBMB

Me too! lol

the ghost of Christmas past, lol. Edited June 16, 2017 by Foxx

[Crusher]

 

Hooray for 300 yard games as the measure to end all measures!!!

 

 

Let's all just hope Taylor doesn't come out with another "We're ready" video the night before our week 1 game against the Jets

 

 

I don't need to do that at all. Nice try, though.

 

The TD passes and interceptions themselves, for that matter, demonstrate that these numbers are incorporating passes in the pocket as well as outside the pocket from Taylor.

 

And just from watching his TDs and INTs alone, you can see that Taylor's tendency was actually to stay in the pocket and deliver the ball even with pressure coming.

 

There were absolutely passes and plays where he evaded pressure and left the pocket and then delivered the ball, like his 2nd TD pass in the Jets game, but then there were those passes where he stood tall in the pocket with a defender (often) barreling directly at him in full sight and he delivered, like his TD pass to Goodwin in the 1st 'Phins game. And you just watch the TDs and INTs he threw and you can see that Taylor had no problems in the pocket in the midst of pressure.

 

You're just in extreme denial if you're calling for every single pass at this point.

Lol.

 

The only one in denial here is you.

 

Tendencies can't be determined on 17 throws...sorry, bud.

 

You want to make a point to counter my claims with little to nothing to back it up, and when I direct you on how you can truly make a valid point and legitimately counter my reasoning, you get sensitive and chirp about how you don't "need" to do anything. Ok, you don't need to, but don't come back with some weak response pretending that you actually came back with something worthwhile...that trash you typed up doesn't deserve the time of day.

 

I've put in more time researching on my own and bringing up facts on this matter than you ever will, so save you're I'm too cool to listen to you BS and come to the table with something substantial or go back to discussing with the puppets and uninformed...you appear to be in the same category lately.

[John from Riverside]

Lol.

 

The only one in denial here is you.

 

Tendencies can't be determined on 17 throws...sorry, bud.

 

You want to make a point to counter my claims with little to nothing to back it up, and when I direct you on how you can truly make a valid point and legitimately counter my reasoning, you get sensitive and chirp about how you don't "need" to do anything. Ok, you don't need to, but don't come back with some weak response pretending that you actually came back with something worthwhile...that trash you typed up doesn't deserve the time of day.

 

I've put in more time researching on my own and bringing up facts on this matter than you ever will, so save you're I'm too cool to listen to you BS and come to the table with something substantial or go back to discussing with the puppets and uninformed...you appear to be in the same category lately.

With all due respect Crusher the reason why nobody takes you seriously is you simply cannot make points without insulting people and talking down to them.

 

Simple as that

Edited June 17, 2017 by John from Hemet

[Figster]

With all due respect Crusher the reason why nobody takes you seriously is you simply cannot make points without insulting people and talking down to them.

 

Simple as that

again, this is very good point John is making for everyone.

 

Don't turn a good post into a bad one with insults.

 

Crusher also gets allot of insults so lets not pretend it doesn't go both ways.

[Shaw66]

It doesn't matter. I only asked him how he thought Tyrod would have done if put in a similar situation as Fitz. You're putting way too much thought into gthis.

okay.

 

Go Bills!

[transplantbillsfan]

Crusher -

 

Do you have any data to back this up? I'm more interested in Taylor data than Fitz data - I'm pretty confident I know that Fitz failed late in games, but I'm not so sure you're correct about Taylor - either about failing or about the reason you think he failed.

 

Fitz's career passer rating is 80. He was high 80s low 90s only two seasons in his career; most seasons his passer rating was in the low 80s or below. So that means isn't a very effective QB, period. When you look at his splits, you can see he was particularly bad at the end of the game. Career 4th quarter rating - 71, below his career average generally - in other words, he's better in earlier quarters. Tied, or trailing with less than 2 or 4 minutes to play, his passer rating is regularly around 50. 85 in games that are tied, 73 when his team is trailing. So, compared to his own averages, he's played really poorly in the last few minutes of games when his team needed scores.

 

Taylor is different. He has a career passer rating of 92, which is a really solid number. When you look at his splits, you see that he performs about as well in end-of-game situations as at other times of the game. Fourth quarter rating is 88, a little below his average, but not bad. Tied with less than 4 minutes to go his rating is 149. Trailing, less than 2 or 4 minutes to go, he's around 85. 89 when tied, 90 when trailing. Not great, and maybe not good enough, but unquestionably better than Fitz. Not even the same league.

 

So unless you have other data, I don't see that there's much comparison between the two. The question, as I intimated, is whether what Taylor has done is good enough. So look at Matt Ryan, someone who probably isn't a hall of famer but definitely is a franchise qb. Passer rating over 93. Career splits: 4th quarter, 85. When tied or losing with less than 4 and 2 minutes to go, passer rating in the 40s and 60s! Tied generally 95, trailing generally 90. So compared to Matt Ryan, Tyrod looks like he's right there.

 

How about Aaron Rodgers? Career rating 104. Fourth quarter 102. Tied or trailing with 4 or 2 minutes left, 115, 94, 65, 76. 107 tied generally, 99 trailing. So Rodgers performs at the end of games about as he does at other times.

 

What does it all mean? It means, I think, that we'd certainly want Taylor to be better at the end of games, but he (and at least two inarguably good quarterbacks) perform about as well at the end of games as they do the other 55 minutes. That, in turn, means that Taylor's problem (if he has a problem) is that he isn't good enough generally, not that he isn't good enough at the end of the game.

 

The problem (which you are sure he has and I am not so sure) is that Taylor can't perform at relatively high levels (passer rating in mid-90s) if he's called on to throw 35 times a game regularly. I think you and I agree that the Bills need a QB who can perform at a high level throwing 35 times a game instead of 25. I really hope we see Taylor in that kind of offense this season, because that will tell us how good Taylor really is.

 

Stop. What are you saying? That Taylor is better or isn't? Are you saying Taylor throwing to those receivers would have gotten the same results, then why do you think Taylor is better.

 

The simple fact is that Taylor is unquestionably better than Fitzpatrick. Unquestionably. Taylor's WORST season was better than Fitzy's second BEST season. And Taylor can run. There's no comparison, regardless of receivers.

 

And, by the way, look at Taylor's receivers last season. Were they actually better than the four you named? Hard to say.

Very. Solid. Post.

[BringBackOrton]

So if your agree that Taylor is certainly better, what is the point of comparing receivers? Why did you raise that?

 

I'm not arguing with you, I just don't understand. Why does it matter what kind of receivers they were throwing to if you, too, agree that Taylor is better? The only think I can think of is that you mean that Taylor, adjusted for receivers, is only a little bit better. But even that doesn't make sense, because throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eric Decker, Fitzpatrick STILL couldn't put up a better season than Taylor's worst.

 

I like it. I want Taylor throwing with all his supporters, so everyone on the other team can get a first-hand look at how he throws over the middle and anticipates.

Fitzpatrick in 2015 was better than TT in 2016. Unquestionably.

[transplantbillsfan]

It doesn't matter. I only asked him how he thought Tyrod would have done if put in a similar situation as Fitz. You're putting way too much thought into this.

Bang... you and I just had a discussion about what you called something "petty" by me yesterday. Here you're being dismissive of Shaw for pointing something out that actually seems like a natural thought:

 

You're asking how Taylor would have done with Fitz's WRs, so it sure seems like a point of at least questionable comparison.

 

 

I'm really not trying to pick a fight here... and maybe you're just having some Internet fun... but just be wary of the way you point your finger...

 

I heart you so much

[transplantbillsfan]

Lol.

 

The only one in denial here is you.

 

Tendencies can't be determined on 17 throws...sorry, bud.

 

You want to make a point to counter my claims with little to nothing to back it up, and when I direct you on how you can truly make a valid point and legitimately counter my reasoning, you get sensitive and chirp about how you don't "need" to do anything. Ok, you don't need to, but don't come back with some weak response pretending that you actually came back with something worthwhile...that trash you typed up doesn't deserve the time of day.

 

I've put in more time researching on my own and bringing up facts on this matter than you ever will, so save you're I'm too cool to listen to you BS and come to the table with something substantial or go back to discussing with the puppets and uninformed...you appear to be in the same category lately.

You've put time in for research?

 

Doubtful.

 

Crusher, you started a single thread on BBMB that contained some pretty solid research to discuss. I defended you when that thread closed down because I thought it was unfair and ridiculous.

 

That's the kind of Crusher I hoped to see over here with a brand new fresh start.

 

Unfortunately, that thread was an outlier for you.

 

 

I don't need to go figure out the throws because nothing is going to convince you to acknowledge any level of promise from Taylor in terms of the QB position as you want it played.

 

You believe that you're somehow showing objectivity when you acknowledge strengths like "a great deep ball" or "elite athleticism" or "a great runner," except you aren't because you choose pretty much inarguably his universal strengths.

 

But you get those 17 throws to look at (did you even bother going and watching the throws you?) and pretty much acknowledge that he does what you think he doesn't do well on those throws and now need to see the rest of the throws and get numbers for how many were outside of the pocket rather than in the pocket...?

 

Crusher, you must be desperate.

[Scott7975]

If you guys are now arguing about Taylor throwing from inside the pocket, an article was posted a long time ago that showed his stats in the pocket. Here they are...

 

 

Completions/Attempts: 210/320

Completion %: 65.6

Yards: 2,363

Yards Per Attempt: 7.38

TDs: 12

INTs: 5

QB Rating: 93.5

Drops By Pass-Catchers: 18

 

article: https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2016/12/21/14038058/tyrod-taylor-bills-2016-in-the-pocket-passing-statistics-will-probably-surprise-you

[BringBackOrton]

If you guys are now arguing about Taylor throwing from inside the pocket, an article was posted a long time ago that showed his stats in the pocket. Here they are...

 

 

Completions/Attempts: 210/320

Completion %: 65.6

Yards: 2,363

Yards Per Attempt: 7.38

TDs: 12

INTs: 5

QB Rating: 93.5

Drops By Pass-Catchers: 18

 

article: https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2016/12/21/14038058/tyrod-taylor-bills-2016-in-the-pocket-passing-statistics-will-probably-surprise-you

Useless without context.