QB comparative data for Tyrod from Cian Fahey to discuss

[BuffaloHokie13]

Got link?

If possible but under what financial considerations?

What other options were there?

Nope, no link. You can believe it or not, I was just adding some context to the situation. Dennison was also the driving force behind Denver's offer to Tyrod when he was an FA, not Kubiak. It certainly doesn't guarantee success for Tyrod, but the guy wants to work with him.

[transplantbillsfan]

this is an interesting comment. Last season the Chiefs went to a quick-release game, much more than they ever had in earlier years. Smith was getting the ball out incredibly quickly. Three significant things happened. 1. Smith's rushing yards dropped dramatically. For the previous three years, he'd been one of the leading rushers among QBs. In 2016 he fell way back into the pack. 2. His sacks dropped way down. Just like Taylor, he'd run around back there and extend plays, which has a benefit and a problem. Extended plays often lead to gains you wouldn't otherwise get. They also lead to sacks you wouldn't otherwise get. 3. The Chiefs' offense didn't get markedly better or worse. For the past several years they haven't gained a lot of yards, and that didn't change. But they were generally a pretty good scoring offense, and they were in 2016. Not stellar, but okay.

 

So if your prediction is correct, Taylor gets the ball out quicker, it may be that the offense won't get worse, but it also might not get better.

 

This is one of those rat holes that transplant started us down in the beginning of this thread. It's very hard to correlate wins with min-stats, like how quickly someone throws the ball. The game is much too complicated to reduce to concepts like that.

 

However, as for Taylor personally, he becomes a much less valuable guy if you take away his legs. Without his legs, he's VERY ordinary.

 

As we perhaps start to get back to the "rat hole" I started us down, one of Fahey's most critical points was how overvalued QBs are when it comes to wins. He actually talks in great depth about it.

 

He still argues that QB is the most important position on the field, but whereas most attribute (I'll use arbitrary numbers now) 40-50% of the credit or blame to team wins and losses on QBs, the number is closer to 10%.

 

And part of his goal was an analysis on the skills QBs demonstrate on the field and how traditional stats don't fully convey what a QB can and does do. And that stats often belie QB play on the field.

 

None of his points were about correlating wins although he does talk about them in the process of his chapters, anecdotally discussing the impact of the stats on each player.

 

It's elaborate and thoughtful. And yes, subjective. But (we assume) equally subjective.

 

 

That's why I think it's ridiculous to just dismiss him because you don't agree with him as GoBills808 is simply because of his views on Cousins. Well, he's pretty thorough and thoughtful about his discussion of Cousins, and when people dismiss Fahey because of his views on another player like Cousins, I would ask only one question:

 

Did you watch every single snap the QB took that you disagree with Fahey so adamantly on?

[transplantbillsfan]

You chosing not highlight the part where I point out my point is pur speciation.

 

The forgone conclusion part has many articles that speak to that effect. That part isn't speculation. That part is something that had been reported on and if you Google it you will find it.

 

I'm not trying to get away with anything "bud." Again reading comprehension

 

Yeah... because if you find it on the Internet, it must have been so.

 

 

Here's a very simple question: Can you find a direct quote from Whaley/McDermott/Pegula/Dennison or ANYONE who worked for OBD from January to March of 2017 who said that Taylor needed to take a pay cut or he would be cut?

 

If you can't find any direct quote of the sort, IT WAS NOT A FORGONE CONCLUSION...

 

PERIOD!!!

 

 

That's not me being angry... simply me making what should be the final point on the subject

Yes it was, by all accounts buffalo did not want that cap hit. It was reported heavily that Tyrod was basically done in Buffalo with that cap hit. They knew he was their best option oppose to the field, but if you really think they were holding onto him come hell or high water at that figure...

 

Does Google not work for certain people?

 

Nope, you're wrong. I'm not saying it's not true. But it absolutely is NOT a forgone conclusion that Taylor was going to be cut.

 

Keep saying it if you want, but saying it doesn't make it so.

 

 

Google works just fine. You apparently aren't using it correctly. Find a direct quote from someone involved at OBD that Taylor would have been cut if he didn't take a pay cut.

 

I'll wait...

Edited May 10, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[BillsFan17]

 

Yeah... because if you find it on the Internet, it must have been so.

 

 

Here's a very simple question: Can you find a direct quote from Whaley/McDermott/Pegula/Dennison or ANYONE who worked for OBD from January to March of 2017 who said that Taylor needed to take a pay cut or he would be cut?

 

If you can't find any direct quote of the sort, IT WAS NOT A FORGONE CONCLUSION...

 

PERIOD!!!

 

 

That's not me being angry... simply me making what should be the final point on the subject

 

 

Nope

So we trust the media when they give us news we want to hear, but don't trust them when it doesn't fit our narrative? Do you put your fingers in your ears and stomp your feet when you don't hear what you want as well?

 

As if we haven't heard conflicting things coming out of buffalo, or the leaks... come on now, you need to hear it directly from them for it to be truth?

Edited May 10, 2017 by BillsFan17

[xRUSHx]

The QB drives the team and so far Buffalos QBs can only drive us to the liquor store.

[Shaw66]

So we trust the media when they give us news we want to hear, but don't trust them when it doesn't fit our narrative? Do you put your fingers in your ears and stomp your feet when you don't hear what you want as well?

 

As if we haven't heard conflicting things coming out of buffalo, or the leaks... come on now, you need to hear it directly from them for it to be truth?

I don't trust anything from the media unless (1) I'm watching video of someone who has direct knowledge of what he's talking about or (2) I'm reading something with quotation marks, quoting someone with direct knowledge of what he's talking about. Everything else i get from the media is suspect.

[John from Riverside]

You chosing not highlight the part where I point out my point is pur speciation.

 

The forgone conclusion part has many articles that speak to that effect. That part isn't speculation. That part is something that had been reported on and if you Google it you will find it.

 

I'm not trying to get away with anything "bud." Again reading comprehension

Or perhaps you can just own up to it....when you use terms like "foregone conclusion" your not guessing.....

 

Do you think people cannot see that?

[PolishDave]

nor over-payed. the knife cuts both ways. which is why most players in their prime look for long term contracts. with the average playing career length for QB's of 4.4 years, Tyrod would love a long term contract.

we will be running some version of the WCO.

 

the premise of the WCO is a short passing ball control offense. all of which incidentally, are areas that Tyrod is deficient in.

 

i don't see Tyrod lasting the year as the starter.

 

Well, Dennison with Kubiak liked play action passing and roll outs/bootlegs. I think Tyrod is perfectly suited for those things.

 

Rex Ryan/Greg Roman Bills ran a West Coast passing offense too ya know - derived from Bill Walsh era.....Roman just liked to run the ball more than any other offensive coordinator.

 

I expect Dennison to throw more often for sure, but he is near middle of the road in number of pass attempts and middle of the road in run attempts. The Bills offense should be much more balanced - not necessarily pass happy.

[transplantbillsfan]

So we trust the media when they give us news we want to hear, but don't trust them when it doesn't fit our narrative? Do you put your fingers in your ears and stomp your feet when you don't hear what you want as well?

 

As if we haven't heard conflicting things coming out of buffalo, or the leaks... come on now, you need to hear it directly from them for it to be truth?

 

You've got to be joking at this point.

 

With the joke that sports media and journalism has become, if you seriously think that the same journalists and "experts" who were widely reporting that the Bills were inevitably moving on from Taylor when the season ended are credible enough to believe whole-heartedly when they report something like this, then you're being naïve.

 

And the ever-worshipped Adam Shefter is included as one of the guys reporting that Taylor would no longer be the Bills starting QB right after the season ended:

http://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/report-bills-planning-to-move-on-from-tyrod-taylor

 

That "report" came out just 4 days after Taylor's clean out interview where he mentioned he'd be open to the possibility of restructuring:

http://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/bills-qb-tyrod-taylor-on-starting-job-it-was-taken-from-me

 

 

Sure sounds to me like posturing very early in the process for OBD after they heard Taylor would be open to restructuring. I think it's quite reasonable to believe that OBD immediately salivated over the idea of saving a bunch of money on his contract and then started leaking all these stories and reports to "credible" NFL guys.

 

Even Shefter and Carucci never directly say "a source told me that..." The phrasing is always "all indications are" or something like that.

 

That's a subtle but important difference.

 

 

 

Look, I'm not saying it isn't what happened. It might have been what happened. But making a statement like "it was a forgone conclusion" that it would happen based on some vague reports from Carucci that also don't even directly say anything about Taylor actually inevitably being cut if he didn't take a paycut.

 

You keep believing what you want. But it's your opinion. It's not fact or "a forgone conclusion."

Edited May 10, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[Shaw66]

Nope, no link. You can believe it or not, I was just adding some context to the situation. Dennison was also the driving force behind Denver's offer to Tyrod when he was an FA, not Kubiak. It certainly doesn't guarantee success for Tyrod, but the guy wants to work with him.

So, Hokie, is this just a theory you have, or do you have some inside knowledge that tells you this?

 

I've wondered about Dennison's role in all this. Frankly, if that's true, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. After all, Chan Gailey really wanted to work with Ryan Fitzpatrick. Everyone can make mistakes.

 

Still, regardless of how we got here, here we are. Tyrod is almost certainly the starter in 2017. I DO feel good that his offensive coordinator is someone who has worked with him before, someone who is installing the system they worked on together. That's a plus for Taylor, and therefore it's a plus for the Bills.

[BillsFan17]

 

You've got to be joking at this point.

 

With the joke that sports media and journalism has become, if you seriously think that the same journalists and "experts" who were widely reporting that the Bills were inevitably moving on from Taylor when the season ended are credible enough to believe whole-heartedly when they report something like this, then you're being naïve.

 

And the ever-worshipped Adam Shefter is included as one of the guys reporting that Taylor would no longer be the Bills starting QB right after the season ended:

http://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/report-bills-planning-to-move-on-from-tyrod-taylor

 

That "report" came out just 4 days after Taylor's clean out interview where he mentioned he'd be open to the possibility of restructuring:

http://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/bills-qb-tyrod-taylor-on-starting-job-it-was-taken-from-me

 

 

Sure sounds to me like posturing very early in the process for OBD after they heard Taylor would be open to restructuring. I think it's quite reasonable to believe that OBD immediately salivated over the idea of saving a bunch of money on his contract and then started leaking all these stories and reports to "credible" NFL guys.

 

Even Shefter and Carucci never directly say "a source told me that..." The phrasing is always "all indications are" or something like that.

 

That's a subtle but important difference.

 

 

 

Look, I'm not saying it isn't what happened. It might have been what happened. But making a statement like "it was a forgone conclusion" that it would happen based on some vague reports from Carucci that also don't even directly say anything about Taylor actually inevitably being cut if he didn't take a paycut.

 

You keep believing what you want. But it's your opinion. It's not fact or "a forgone conclusion."

https://www.google.com/amp/billswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/14/buffalo-bills-tyrod-taylor-contract-pay-cut/amp/

[transplantbillsfan]

https://www.google.com/amp/billswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/14/buffalo-bills-tyrod-taylor-contract-pay-cut/amp/

Well considering that article does more of the same in terms of speculation, I'm going to assume that you posting an obvious speculation is admitting that you were incorrect in stating speculation as fact.

 

Good form!

 

Always glad when people are capable of admitting to mistakes. Happens to all of us.

[BillsFan17]

Well considering that article does more of the same in terms of speculation, I'm going to assume that you posting an obvious speculation is admitting that you were incorrect in stating speculation as fact.

 

Good form!

 

Always glad when people are capable of admitting to mistakes. Happens to all of us.

I have no qualms admitting when im wrong. As a man, I have not an ounce of hesitation admitting when I'm wrong. In addition to that, I also gage the importance of the subject matter, and I really don't need to win the Internet. I can lay out an opinion/stance/argument and conduct healthy debate.

 

However, i don't envision findung that with you. Seeing as how that one article along with many others, ued the same language that I used in my posts. The same posts that point out speculation on both sides. I mean Whaley never directly came out and said Tyrod want his guy, but benched him as a "business decision." Then the consensus is Whaley didn't want to stick with Tyrod, but McDermott did. So these actions and sentiments being coupled with various outlets, again, with the language being used that I reiterated. All you have responded with... it says enough to me about who I'm "debating" with.

 

Nevertheless, I gave an example of one such piece regarding the feelings of Tyrods fate. If you chose to do the research or acknowledge only what you choose to acknowledge, I'm not here to convince you. I don't get brownie points for changing your mind.

Edited May 10, 2017 by BillsFan17

[transplantbillsfan]

I have no qualms admitting when im wrong. As a man, I have not an ounce of hesitation admitting when I'm wrong. In addition to that, I also gage the importance of the subject matter, and I really don't need to win the Internet. I can lay out an opinion/stance/argument and conduct healthy debate.

 

However, i don't envision findung that with you. Seeing as how that one article along with many others, ued the same language that I used in my posts. The same posts that point out speculation on both sides. I mean Whaley never directly came out and said Tyrod want his guy, but benched him as a "business decision." Then the consensus is Whaley didn't want to stick with Tyrod, but McDermott did. So these actions and sentiments being coupled with various outlets, again, with the language being used that I reiterated. All you have responded with... it says enough to me about who I'm "debating" with.

 

Nevertheless, I gave an example of one such piece regarding the feelings of Tyrods fate. If you chose to do the research or acknowledge only what you choose to acknowledge, I'm not here to convince you. I don't get brownie points for changing your mind.

Feelings are not facts...

 

It's funny because I've provided direct quotes. You're providing "feelings." Yet, you think those "feelings" are proof it's a forgone conclusion that Taylor was gone if he didn't take a pay cut.

 

Maybe you define forgone conclusion differently than me, because that's a statement reserved for inevitable fact. Because if that's the definition we're going by, you're wrong.

[BillsFan17]

Feelings are not facts...

 

It's funny because I've provided direct quotes. You're providing "feelings." Yet, you think those "feelings" are proof it's a forgone conclusion that Taylor was gone if he didn't take a pay cut.

 

Maybe you define forgone conclusion differently than me, because that's a statement reserved for inevitable fact. Because if that's the definition we're going by, you're wrong.

All I did was provide you with evidence of why I used the language I did. You can choose to interpret it however you want. Obviously you are going to focus on certain words and phrases and not the bigger picture of what's being discussed.

 

I make other points and you pick one phrase and that's what you hone in on. Again, I understand the level of which I being brought to, and I really just don't care enough about how it's perceived anymore. Cause fact of the matter is, a marginal QB had years taken off his deal because the Bills aren't hedging their bets on him. The fiscal figures also help them walk away from him within that time frame.

 

I have in other posts given examples and also stated these views as my opinions and these are speculative takes.

 

But again, can't stress enough i know the level you want me at with this.

[transplantbillsfan]

All I did was provide you with evidence of why I used the language I did. You can choose to interpret it however you want. Obviously you are going to focus on certain words and phrases and not the bigger picture of what's being discussed.

 

I make other points and you pick one phrase and that's what you hone in on. Again, I understand the level of which I being brought to, and I really just don't care enough about how it's perceived anymore. Cause fact of the matter is, a marginal QB had years taken off his deal because the Bills aren't hedging their bets on him. The fiscal figures also help them walk away from him within that time frame.

I have in other posts given examples and also stated these views as my opinions and these are speculative takes.

 

But again, can't stress enough i know the level you want me at with this.

There ya go. So they're opinions and you used "forgone conclusion" for emphasis, not because you thought it was a fact.

 

I read all your points. I'm fine with you believing it. It's reasonable.

 

But setting the precedent of allowing opinions to pass as facts is a bad one, even in the Age of Alternative Facts.

 

 

 

 

That was a crusade. I sincerely apologize to everyone.

 

Moving on...

[Figster]

So, Hokie, is this just a theory you have, or do you have some inside knowledge that tells you this?

 

I've wondered about Dennison's role in all this. Frankly, if that's true, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. After all, Chan Gailey really wanted to work with Ryan Fitzpatrick. Everyone can make mistakes.

 

Still, regardless of how we got here, here we are. Tyrod is almost certainly the starter in 2017. I DO feel good that his offensive coordinator is someone who has worked with him before, someone who is installing the system they worked on together. That's a plus for Taylor, and therefore it's a plus for the Bills.

I would still like to think its better to give an OC a player he believes fits his system and he can be productive with vs forcing a square peg into a round hole in my humble opinion.

 

Myself personally, to me it appears allot of thought has went into putting Tyrod Taylor in the best position possible to excel and take his play to the next level.

 

time will telll...

[transplantbillsfan]

I would still like to think its better to give an OC a player he believes fits his system and he can be productive with vs forcing a square peg into a round hole in my humble opinion.

 

Myself personally, to me it appears allot of thought has went into putting Tyrod Taylor in the best position possible to excel and take his play to the next level.

 

time will telll...

I agree. Thought it was pretty obvious when the Bills got Dennison as the OC that the intention was to keep Taylor and hit the ground running.

 

Of course that's not a fact, I'm just using logic to create a reasonable opinion

Edited May 10, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

If these were the only two options, we WOULD be in a good position. Unfortunately, there's option 3: that Taylor plays mediocre which IMO is the most likely, and handcuffs a 1st time HC who, despite the apparant executive privilege granted from ownership, finds himself unwilling to risk making a move for a 1st round QB and instead contents himself to push the 'we're close' narrative while hovering around .500 for three/four years until he's inevitably fired and the process is repeated. And repeated.

This

[Royale with Cheese]

 

Yeah... because if you find it on the Internet, it must have been so.

 

 

Here's a very simple question: Can you find a direct quote from Whaley/McDermott/Pegula/Dennison or ANYONE who worked for OBD from January to March of 2017 who said that Taylor needed to take a pay cut or he would be cut?

 

If you can't find any direct quote of the sort, IT WAS NOT A FORGONE CONCLUSION...

 

PERIOD!!!

 

 

That's not me being angry... simply me making what should be the final point on the subject

 

 

Nope, you're wrong. I'm not saying it's not true. But it absolutely is NOT a forgone conclusion that Taylor was going to be cut.

 

Keep saying it if you want, but saying it doesn't make it so.

 

 

Google works just fine. You apparently aren't using it correctly. Find a direct quote from someone involved at OBD that Taylor would have been cut if he didn't take a pay cut.

 

I'll wait...

There is no way anyone from OBD would go to he public about what their intentions were on Tyrod, especially since he was brought back. Come on Trans....that's your focal point in this debate? No one went to the media to tell the NFL world what the behind the scenes discussions were? Seriously?