Pegulas right not to fire Jim Overdorf

[NoSaint]

I believe this too be the correct definition of overdorf's job. A Gm may say sign him. It is his job to get it right. He has not. Fire him.

 

They said the same crap about Whaley. No?

I just don't get how we separate player valuations (salary cap and negotiation) from evaluation (scouting) in a truly meaningful way in order to absolve the money guy from the player decisions. Maybe he doesn't get the full weight but it amazes me that he can stick while so many others have been axed.

 

I stand by most of us not knowing the breakdown but I'm a bit confused by the process in this specific slice of the front office

Edited June 17, 2017 by NoSaint

[3rdand12]

Beane will give Overdorf marching orders, am I correct? if he can follow them? then fine enough
if he stays, he is good

if he goes, he was bad.

simple

Edited June 17, 2017 by 3rdand12

[hondo in seattle]

 

 

....sounds like a misunderstanding of Jim's role

• Associated Press
• Published: Jan. 31, 2008 at 11:34 a.m.

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. -- Jim Overdorf was promoted to Buffalo Bills senior vice president of football administration, giving him control over contract negotiations and salary cap decisions.

 

The move announced Thursday was part of a minor front office restructuring that follows Russ Brandon's promotion to chief operating officer. Brandon's promotion came after the Bills elected not to fill the general manager's role after Marv Levy stepped down at the end of the season.

 

 

This is from 2008. We have new owners and, more recently, a new GM.

 

I have no inside info but I'll speculate that Overdorf's role has been redefined since then.

 

Overdorf may be good at his new role whatever it may be. But not knowing what exactly his responsibilities are currently, I hesitate to judge.

[Thurman#1]

My general take on Overdorf is that he's done a decent job. The Bills haven't had to make a decision because of cap space since London Fletcher and company. They haven't been restricted by the cap in any way. What else do you want from the guy in charge of the cap? That's the only criteria that matters.

 

...and before someone tries to claim Gilmore, please understand that electing to not pay a guy $40M guaranteed is different than not being able to do that.

 

My only issue with Overdorf is there was the language in Dareus' contract protecting them for his off the field mistakes. Maybe hey couldn't get it but that's the one thing that I take issue with.

 

 

 

If Gilmore were the only argument here, it would make sense, as it's hard to say whether they wanted to pay him that much. It's not only Gilmore. It's Gillislee and Zach Brown and Robert Woods and Robey-Coleman and depth guys like Douzable and others on a team with very little depth.

 

They needed to bring in safeties as they just didn't have anyone there. That used up most of the cap space they felt comfortable with using. Now what happens if we lose an LB to injury? They can bring in a journeyman but don't have anyone as good as Brown and aren't likely to get one.

 

They're hovering close to the area they want to be in to have money available to bring in a cheap guy or two before camp if someone disappoints or when the cuts happen and still have enough left to keep their usual amount for in-season injury replacements.

 

How can you say absolutely none of those decisions was primarily about cap? Those are exactly the difficult choices being cap hamstrung forces you into. You keep one guy so you have to let go one or two more. Even if you have poor depth and would like to keep him.

 

 

 

 

I don't pretend to know how much Overdorf was responsible for, though my guess is it's more than most think. Fitting stuff under the cap if you know the salary range to shoot for isn't all that difficult. It's nothing someone with a bit of business or law background couldn't pick up with a few months to study. The difficult part I'd assume is the negotiations and probably other parts of the job I know nothing about.

 

I have bad feelings about the guy but may be totally wrong. I'm willing to believe McDermott and Beane know enough that if they keep him around after a while to watch his performance it may be because he does a good job.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Thurman#1

[SoTier]

I just don't get how we separate player valuations (salary cap and negotiation) from evaluation (scouting) in a truly meaningful way in order to absolve the money guy from the player decisions. Maybe he doesn't get the full weight but it amazes me that he can stick while so many others have been axed.

 

I stand by most of us not knowing the breakdown but I'm a bit confused by the process in this specific slice of the front office

That's because you can't separate player valuations from talent evaluations. Fifteen years ago or so, all the gurus in the media were convinced that the salary cap meant the end to dynasties because teams supposedly couldn't pay top talent, especially QBs, and maintain enough quality around them to make the playoffs with regularity. Well, all the gurus were wrong. Teams with truly smart guys working their cap numbers figured out how to do it, which is why teams like NE, PIttsburgh, Denver, Atlanta, Green Bay, KC, etc have continually been able to field playoff teams year in and year out.

 

The Bills haven't made the playoffs in 17 years because they're clueless about how to manage the cap. They don't have a QB taking a huge bite out of their cap,but they STILL can't retain the talented players they've developed. They're still operating on principles that were proven unsuccessful fifteen years ago. You don't need to know how the Bills FO operates to realize it's not doing its job. The results speak for themselves ... over and over again. Overdorf needs to go .. and all the rest of the good ol' boys at OBD, too.

Edited June 17, 2017 by SoTier

[leonbus23]

What about Russ Brandon?

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

 

If Gilmore were the only argument here, it would make sense, as it's hard to say whether they wanted to pay him that much. It's not only Gilmore. It's Gillislee and Zach Brown and Robert Woods and Robey-Coleman and depth guys like Douzable and others on a team with very little depth.

 

They needed to bring in safeties as they just didn't have anyone there. That used up most of the cap space they felt comfortable with using. Now what happens if we lose an LB to injury? They can bring in a journeyman but don't have anyone as good as Brown and aren't likely to get one.

 

They're hovering close to the area they want to be in to have money available to bring in a cheap guy or two before camp if someone disappoints or when the cuts happen and still have enough left to keep their usual amount for in-season injury replacements.

 

How can you say absolutely none of those decisions was primarily about cap? Those are exactly the difficult choices being cap hamstrung forces you into. You keep one guy so you have to let go one or two more. Even if you have poor depth and would like to keep him.

 

 

 

 

I don't pretend to know how much Overdorf was responsible for, though my guess is it's more than most think. Fitting stuff under the cap if you know the salary range to shoot for isn't all that difficult. It's nothing someone with a bit of business or law background couldn't pick up with a few months to study. The difficult part I'd assume is the negotiations and probably other parts of the job I know nothing about.

 

I have bad feelings about the guy but may be totally wrong. I'm willing to believe McDermott and Beane know enough that if they keep him around after a while to watch his performance it may be because he does a good job.

They have $12+ M and the restructures of Glenn and Dareus sitting in their back pockets. Not one of those decisions was cap related. Deciding not to pay Woods $7M, a backup RB more than Adrian Peterson and guarantee Gilmore $40M is because they didn't think that was a wise use of money. They decided against Brown as well. Again, they weren't FORCED to make any decision because of the cap. Choosing not to pay a certain price and not being able to is completely different. The cap guy afforded them the opportunity, the football people decided that wasn't money well spent.

 

In terms of LB, they are going to release a guy or 2 that ends up on another NFL roster. That's fine depth. Brown, Ragland, Humber, Hodges, Alexander, Vallejo, and Milano. How many more LBs do they need?

Edited June 17, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Best Player Available]

I just don't get how we separate player valuations (salary cap and negotiation) from evaluation (scouting) in a truly meaningful way in order to absolve the money guy from the player decisions. Maybe he doesn't get the full weight but it amazes me that he can stick while so many others have been axed.

I stand by most of us not knowing the breakdown but I'm a bit confused by the process in this specific slice of the front office

An example of a good "capologist" was Carmen Policy with the 49ers. He managed in the first year(s) of the cap to get the team chock full of great players under the cap. There may have been other guys in pro sports. But he sticks out as one of the first. It was more than creative thinking that made him kind of legendary in the early cap years. His job was to get the highest paid team in the league without gutting it. He did that with amazing and deadly money skills.

 

I would imagine that Overdorf's job role with the Bills even in this modern NFL and too some extent easier job. With up front signing bonuses, and whatever other tools they have now. Like someone else mentioned. The Bills have no superstar QB, LG, receiver, etc. and let good corners walk after their rookie contracts. My guess is because of very poor cap management. This is a medicore team on their best day. Yet this year they are against the wall. And let IMO serviceable and players they drafted go. This year Being Robert Woods, and Gilmore. Remember Whaley declaring "we will build through the draft" But yea for the Bills and right now some OBD jobs seem too have poor definitions. Too include Mcd and Beane.

 

Going off topic the belief that Gilmore sux because he cannot or won't tackle. I suggest too those that hold that view too watch some neon dion tape. One can only hope the new regime sees, understands and develops talent with room for the eventual 20 M+ QB they will have too pay. And have Overdorf for now on a very short leash.

[K-9]

People act like managing the cap is a year to year thing. Well, it isn't. Teams have to look several years out while still accounting for injuries, etc. It's extremely dynamic. It's also easier than many realize to create space when needed.

[Kirby Jackson]

An example of a good "capologist" was Carmen Policy with the 49ers. He managed in the first year(s) of the cap to get the team chock full of great players under the cap. There may have been other guys in pro sports. But he sticks out as one of the first. It was more than creative thinking that made him kind of legendary in the early cap years. His job was to get the highest paid team in the league without gutting it. He did that with amazing and deadly money skills.

 

I would imagine that Overdorf's job role with the Bills even in this modern NFL and too some extent easier job. With up front signing bonuses, and whatever other tools they have now. Like someone else mentioned. The Bills have no superstar QB, LG, receiver, etc. and let good corners walk after their rookie contracts. My guess is because of very poor cap management. This is a medicore team on their best day. Yet this year they are against the wall. And let IMO serviceable and players they drafted go. This year Being Robert Woods, and Gilmore. Remember Whaley declaring "we will build through the draft" But yea for the Bills and right now some OBD jobs seem too have poor definitions. Too include Mcd and Beane.

 

Going off topic the belief that Gilmore sux because he cannot or won't tackle. I suggest too those that hold that view too watch some neon dion tape. One can only hope the new regime sees, understands and develops talent with room for the eventual 20 M+ QB they will have too pay. And have Overdorf for now on a very short leash.

Again though they have a QB at $15M, $12M in cap space...who are the guys that they were forced to let go? Gilmore got $40M guaranteed!! Robert Woods is making $7M a year. That wasn't backs against the wall, that was a bad use of cap space. Gilmore would be more defensible than Woods. Those guys will combine for a $20M cap hit for much of theses contracts!! Zay Jones and Tre White combine for a cap hit of just over $3M this year. You'll arguably get the same, or at least similar, production and a ton of cap space. That's a good decision. That's not a decision that the Bills had to make but decided $7M for Robert Woods isn't the best use of $7M. That's not even debatable. Woods has the 16th highest contract (total value for a receiver) and was in the 70's in receiving yards. That's an easy decision for the Bills.

 

You pay your best players and turn over the middle of your roster. You never pay Robert Woods $7M when you can pay Zay Jones $1.2M. You pay guys like Watkins that can take over games. You never pay role players that money.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Dragonborn10]

They have $12+ M and the restructures of Glenn and Dareus sitting in their back pockets. Not one of those decisions was cap related. Deciding not to pay Woods $7M, a backup RB more than Adrian Peterson and guarantee Gilmore $40M is because they didn't think that was a wise use of money. They decided against Brown as well. Again, they weren't FORCED to make any decision because of the cap. Choosing not to pay a certain price and not being able to is completely different. The cap guy afforded them the opportunity, the football people decided that wasn't money well spent.

 

In terms of LB, they are going to release a guy or 2 that ends up on another NFL roster. That's fine depth. Brown, Ragland, Humber, Hodges, Alexander, Vallejo, and Milano. How many more LBs do they need?

Thank you Kirby. I have no idea why this board thinks the cap has had anything to do with any decision the Bills have made.

[Kirby Jackson]

Thank you Kirby. I have no idea why this board thinks the cap has had anything to do with any decision the Bills have made.

Because it fits the narrative of incompetence. It's easy for people to think that even if it isn't true. They haven't had to make a cap decision that I remember since Fletcher, Schobel and Pat Williams (at least I think that's the group). Peters could fit in there but they dealt him for a 1st prior to having to make that decision. They've done a fine job with the cap. There isn't a lot of bad dead money sitting there. They haven't had to let anyone go. The Bills don't have a cap problem.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

 

This is from 2008. We have new owners and, more recently, a new GM.

 

I have no inside info but I'll speculate that Overdorf's role has been redefined since then.

 

Overdorf may be good at his new role whatever it may be. But not knowing what exactly his responsibilities are currently, I hesitate to judge.

...but he is still the contractual capologist and has still been retained by Pegula....think he remains pretty good at his craft...why would Pegula keep him around?....

[stuvian]

People act like managing the cap is a year to year thing. Well, it isn't. Teams have to look several years out while still accounting for injuries, etc. It's extremely dynamic. It's also easier than many realize to create space when needed.

Thank you Mr Lombardi

[SoTier]

Thank you Kirby. I have no idea why this board thinks the cap has had anything to do with any decision the Bills have made.

 

^^^

 

Because it fits the narrative of incompetence. It's easy for people to think that even if it isn't true. They haven't had to make a cap decision that I remember since Fletcher, Schobel and Pat Williams (at least I think that's the group). Peters could fit in there but they dealt him for a 1st prior to having to make that decision. They've done a fine job with the cap. There isn't a lot of bad dead money sitting there. They haven't had to let anyone go. The Bills don't have a cap problem.

 

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, there's a good chance it's a duck.

 

For your edification, gentlemen, I will list 1st and 2nd round draft picks that the Bills either did not re-sign after their rookie contracts or traded away during their rookie contracts in the last seventeen playoff years:

• 1999-1-Antoine Winfield - signed with Minnesota in 2004, made the Pro Bowl in 2008,2009,2010, 2012 and was named to an All Pro team 3 times.
• 1999-2-Peerless Price - traded to Atlanta in 2003 for first round pick
• 2001-1-Nate Clements - signed with Minnesota in 2007, made the Pro Bowl in 2004.
• 2001-2-Travis Henry - traded to Tennessee in 2005, made the Pro Bowl in 2002
• 2003-1-Willis McGahee- traded to Baltimore in 2006, made the Pro Bowl in 2007 and 2011
• 2006-1-Donte Whitner - signed with San Francisco in 2011, made the Pro Bowl in 2012, 2013, 2014
• 2007-1-Marshawn Lynch - traded to Seattle Seahawks in 2010, made the Pro Bowl in 2008, 2010, 2011, 20112, 2013, 2014, and was named an All Pro once. He also won a Super Bowl ring.
• 2007-1-Paul Posluszny- signed with Jacksonville in 2011, made the Pro Bowl in 2013.
• 2010-1-CJ Spiller - signed with New Orleans in 2015, made the Pro Bowl in 2012.
• 2012-1-Stephon Gilmore - signed with New England in 2017, made the Pro Bowl in 2016

Other infamous instances of the Bills deciding that players weren't "worth paying":

• Ruben Brown, 4 time All Pro and 8 time Pro Bowler with the Bills, signed with Chicago in 2004. He made the Pro Bowl again in 2006 and helped create the wicked ground game that got Chicago into the playoffs in 2005 with rookie Kyle Orton at QB.
• Pat Williams, 3 time Pro Bowler with Minnesota, signed with the Vikings in 2005. Williams, along with Winfield and Clements, helped create a deadly defense for Minnesota that got them into the playoffs despite poor QBing.
• London Fletcher, signed as a FA from ST Louis in 2003, he was released in 2007 and went to make the Pro Bowl from 2009-2012, twice being named All Pro.
• Jason Peters, 6 time Pro Bowler and All Pro, traded to Philadelphia after a contract dispute.

You can make all the excuses that you want for the Bills FO but the plain fact is that the Bills got rid practically every Pro Bowl caliber player they developed during the playoff drought rather than sign them to a second contract, including most of their 1st and 2nd round picks from 1999 through 2012 who weren't busts. Aaron Schobel and Marcell Dareus are among the few exceptions.

 

What I'd really like to know is how the New England Patriots can figure out how to pay Stephon Gilmour as well as Brady and Gronkowski? How can the Miami Dolphins (who made the playoffs for the first time since 2008 and so are much closer to the Bills' talent level) afford Tannehill, Landry, Suh, and Wake?

Edited June 18, 2017 by SoTier

[Kirby Jackson]

 

^^^

 

 

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, there's a good chance it's a duck.

 

For your edification, gentlemen, I will list 1st and 2nd round draft picks that the Bills either did not re-sign after their rookie contracts or traded away during their rookie contracts in the last seventeen playoff years:

• 1999-1-Antoine Winfield - signed with Minnesota in 2004, made the Pro Bowl in 2008,2009,2010, 2012 and was named to an All Pro team 3 times.
• 1999-2-Peerless Price - traded to Atlanta in 2003 for first round pick
• 2001-1-Nate Clements - signed with Minnesota in 2007, made the Pro Bowl in 2004.
• 2001-2-Travis Henry - traded to Tennessee in 2005, made the Pro Bowl in 2002
• 2003-1-Willis McGahee- traded to Baltimore in 2006, made the Pro Bowl in 2007 and 2011
• 2006-1-Donte Whitner - signed with San Francisco in 2011, made the Pro Bowl in 2012, 2013, 2014
• 2007-1-Marshawn Lynch - traded to Seattle Seahawks in 2010, made the Pro Bowl in 2008, 2010, 2011, 20112, 2013, 2014, and was named an All Pro once. He also won a Super Bowl ring.
• 2007-1-Paul Posluszny- signed with Jacksonville in 2011, made the Pro Bowl in 2013.
• 2010-1-CJ Spiller - signed with New Orleans in 2015, made the Pro Bowl in 2012.
• 2012-1-Stephon Gilmore - signed with New England in 2017, made the Pro Bowl in 2016

Other infamous instances of the Bills deciding that players weren't "worth paying":

• Ruben Brown, 4 time All Pro and 8 time Pro Bowler with the Bills, signed with Chicago in 2004. He made the Pro Bowl again in 2006 and helped create the wicked ground game that got Chicago into the playoffs in 2005 with rookie Kyle Orton at QB.
• Pat Williams, 3 time Pro Bowler with Minnesota, signed with the Vikings in 2005. Williams, along with Winfield and Clements, helped create a deadly defense for Minnesota that got them into the playoffs despite poor QBing.
• London Fletcher, signed as a FA from ST Louis in 2003, he was released in 2007 and went to make the Pro Bowl from 2009-2012, twice being named All Pro.
• Jason Peters, 6 time Pro Bowler and All Pro, traded to Philadelphia after a contract dispute.

You can make all the excuses that you want for the Bills FO but the plain fact is that the Bills got rid practically every Pro Bowl caliber player they developed during the playoff drought rather than sign them to a second contract, including most of their 1st and 2nd round picks from 1999 through 2012 who weren't busts. Aaron Schobel and Marcell Dareus are among the few exceptions.

 

What I'd really like to know is how the New England Patriots can figure out how to pay Stephon Gilmour as well as Brady and Gronkowski? How can the Miami Dolphins (who made the playoffs for the first time since 2008 and so are much closer to the Bills' talent level) afford Tannehill, Landry, Suh, and Wake?

Choosing to let guys go and not being able to afford them are COMPLETELY different. I'm not saying that the Bills made good decisions in every case. I'm saying, that since Pat Williams & Co., it hasn't been because they couldn't afford them. It's been over a decade since the Bills hand was forced because of cap space. Edited June 18, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[ganesh]

What about Russ Brandon?

What about Russ. He has done a wonderful job selling tickets in spite of a mediocre performance

[ganesh]

 

^^^

 

You can make all the excuses that you want for the Bills FO but the plain fact is that the Bills got rid practically every Pro Bowl caliber player they developed during the playoff drought rather than sign them to a second contract, including most of their 1st and 2nd round picks from 1999 through 2012 who weren't busts. Aaron Schobel and Marcell Dareus are among the few exceptions.

 

What I'd really like to know is how the New England Patriots can figure out how to pay Stephon Gilmour as well as Brady and Gronkowski? How can the Miami Dolphins (who made the playoffs for the first time since 2008 and so are much closer to the Bills' talent level) afford Tannehill, Landry, Suh, and Wake?

A lot of FA is dependent on the incumbent coaching staff and the salary cap situation at that moment. Pat Williams was deemed "Fat" by Greg Williams and did not want to sign because his style was not a 3-4 and he did not need a Nose Tackle. Byrd wanted to play either for a championship team or for a team coached by his dad. Poz was deemed unfit for the 3-4 to be run by Gailey...The same with Fletcher...he did not fit Jauron's style.

 

The same happened even in the draft..

The same happened, when Dick Jauron picked a CB instead of Haloti Ngata. We picked Spiller even though we had Lynch and Jackson on the team because Gailey wanted a Waterbug Running Back.

 

The Bills do have cap heavy contracts for McCoy, Dareus, Cordy Glenn, Hughes, Wood, Clay. They were also paying a 14M contract for Gilmore last year. And they were paying bloated contracts for players who are injured or overrated like Aaron Williams. Corey Williams.

 

It goes back to not being stable at the coaching situation. A stable coaching staff means same coaching style, which means same style of players in the locker room.

Edited June 19, 2017 by ganesh