GunnerBill Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) Absolutely right. The Bills should do what the Jets did. No the Jets are hedging their bets. That is what we are doing now... taking long shots in the 4th and 5th round every year. The Jets have spent 2nds on Geno and Hack and a 3rd / 4th on Petty in the 3 or 4 years before this one.... I prefer what Kansas City and Houston have just done over that.... every day of the week. Identify a guy you really like and then be aggressive. Edited May 3, 2017 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I didn't have anyone as a 1st round prospect. Trubisky was my #1 because his traits project to the next level. The issue is he's been playing for such a short time and we've seen plenty of 1-year wonder QBs in college, like Hackenburg. I thought a lower 1st round pick would have made sense for him. My #2 was Peterman so obviously I'm very excited with that pick in the 5th round, I am blown away he was still there. In my mind I wanted us to take him in the 2nd or 3rd. My #3 was Dobbs and there's not much separation between him and Peterman for me. Mahomes would be #4 because he has the highest ceiling, I just don't think he has a very good chance of getting there. As a comparison I think Cardale Jones has the highest ceiling of every QB on our roster and if I had to pick one of our QBs to make it I would choose him - I just think he has a minuscule chance of ever getting there. After those 4 I didn't have much interest in the other guys. Well, that's fine but if you were running an NFL team you would end up like the Bills trotting out other team's backups because you are waiting for Luck or Elway. I think if you hate these prospects then you will also hate next year as well other than the one guy who goes before you pick. At some point you have to draft very good prospects and not expect perfection. If a perfect prospect came out the Bills also wouldn't be able to trade 4 1st rounders for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Well, that's fine but if you were running an NFL team you would end up like the Bills trotting out other team's backups because you are waiting for Luck or Elway. I think if you hate these prospects then you will also hate next year as well other than the one guy who goes before you pick. At some point you have to draft very good prospects and not expect perfection. If a perfect prospect came out the Bills also wouldn't be able to trade 4 1st rounders for him. I'm absolutely fine drafting prospects every year, I've just noticed that in recent years the mid-rounders are working out about as well as the guys taken at the top of round 1. Like I think Peterman is a better prospect than Mahomes. I know the NFL doesn't agree but there are numerous examples where the NFL blew it so that doesn't affect my opinion. So I think we should take a 2nd round or lower QB every year unless we're in a good position like we will be next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 No the Jets are hedging their bets. That is what we are doing now... taking long shots in the 4th and 5th round every year. The Jets have spent 2nds on Geno and Hack and a 3rd / 4th on Petty in the 3 or 4 years before this one.... I prefer what Kansas City and Houston have just done over that.... every day of the week. Identify a guy you really like and then be aggressive. What if that's exactly what they are doing and they added KC's 2018 1st so that they could be more aggressive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 It's interesting (ironic, even) that you, who are incessantly bemoaning the Bills' failure to use draft picks on QBs, are holding up as a shining example the Kansas City Chiefs, a franchise that has gone more than 30 years (and counting) without winning a single game with a quarterback that it drafted. KC gave up a number of high picks, multiple second picks if I remember correctly, to acquire Smith who stabilized the position for them. In this past draft the Chiefs gave up a first round and other picks to acquire the qb that they wanted to invest in for the long haul. So there is nothing ironic about my prior post. What is obvious is that over the past 8 years or so they have had a franchise qb taking the snaps. And still with a credible starter in Smith they aggressively went out and used a first round pick and additional picks to get a qb they believe will be a franchise qb. Compare that two the Bills who have not had a franchise qb since the departure of Kelly more than twenty years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 That approach is valid if you hit the right guy. And the misses far exceed the hits. Do the most diligent scouting you can and when you see a guy you think is the guy by all means go for it. The Bills have missed on highly drafted DBs, LBs, OL, DL, RBs, receivers etc. If you miss on those positions does that mean that you should freeze up and avoid the positions again? Of course not. The Bills have passed on qbs such as Carr, Russell Wilson, Cousins etc. My point is that when a bedraggled franchise has not had a franchise quaterback in almost a quarter century it might be appropriate to exhibit more urgency and tenacity in addressing that important issue. , This year I believed that we were in a good draft position to draft at least two quality qb prospects. Again, the organization passed on that opportunity, an opportunity that other teams took advantage of. They basically drafted Alex Smith - they traded a second for him. They traded a first for Trent Green. Both were great moves. People need to be more expansive with regard to the idea of what a draft pick is. Brandin Cooks is basically the Pats first round pick this season, and Kony Ealy is their second rounder. If you add in McGillislee for a fifth round pick with the players you mentioned then they had an exceptional draft and offseason player acquisitions. One obvious advantage they have with this offseason strategy is that all the players mentioned will play at a high level right from the start. Being creative and ahead of the curve is why they continue to hoist the Trophy up while other organizations muddle along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 What if that's exactly what they are doing and they added KC's 2018 1st so that they could be more aggressive? I have said if the Bills really didn't like anyone in this class it is the right play. I just happen to believe there were good options for them at 10. Personally I think they are wrong on this class. I will be happy if we end up in a position to take a good Quarterback next year. I just have some way to go to believe next year's class is sunshine and rainbows wih 5 franchise QBs there just waiting to be picked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 KC gave up a number of high picks, multiple second picks if I remember correctly, to acquire Smith who stabilized the position for them. In this past draft the Chiefs gave up a first round and other picks to acquire the qb that they wanted to invest in for the long haul. So there is nothing ironic about my prior post. What is obvious is that over the past 8 years or so they have had a franchise qb taking the snaps. And still with a credible starter in Smith they aggressively went out and used a first round pick and additional picks to get a qb they believe will be a franchise qb. Compare that two the Bills who have not had a franchise qb since the departure of Kelly more than twenty years ago. John, you're extolling the Chiefs' brilliance in devoting two second round picks to acquire Alex Smith, but the truth is that the Bills acquired a QB for free (Tyrod) who has performed just as well (if not better) than Smith has the past two years. Do you doubt that Tyrod also could have led the Chiefs to the playoffs the past two years? The Chiefs made the playoffs the past two years largely because they have a very good defense and because they hit a home run with the selection of Tyreke Hill last year in the fifth round (exactly the kind of high ceiling/low floor pick that McDermott apparently wants to avoid, BTW). The Chiefs' QB strategy is not necessarily any better than the Bills'. The Bills have used two mid-late round picks on QB in the last two drafts. Neither of those guys has been given a chance yet, but the odds that one of them turns out to be really good (I would argue) is every bit as high as the chance that Mahomes does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 People love to cite the obvious guys that turned out, but completely ignore the ones that do not. How great would we be right now if, in the last 3 years, the Bills drafted Paxton Lynch, Christian Hackenburg, Garret Grayson, and Johnny Manziel instead of Shaq Lawson, Reggie Ragland, Ronald Darby, and Sammy Watkins? They reached for E.J. Manuel when clearly his grade didn't have him that high. Same thing with the quarterback class this year. It was weak. It was filled with a bunch of guys that ALL had obvious flaws. I live in Chicago, and I haven't found a single person here yet that gets trading up for Trubisky. Tell me as we sit here today if the Jets, with hindsight, would rather have Deion Jones than Christian Hackenburg, or whether they're OK holding onto Geno Smith in lieu of Jamie Collins. Whaley has been a "reacher" his whole tenure. I'm glad that ended with this draft honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Talking with a guy at work who is friends with one of the only remaining people in the Bills FO and a guy who is in line to become higher up once the new regime is hired, said Whaley knew he was getting fired post draft for at least a month beforehand. Claims Whaley was a glorified scout and was not effective at the day to day operations a GM should be doing. I still maintain letting the Pro Personnel department go was a mistake with how many gems they have uncovered over the last 5 years off the waiver wire and low budget FA's, but I guess they wanted to clean it out. Also said that Russ Brandon has absolutely ZERO to do with anything front office related on either team, other than perhaps doing some type of interviews or sitting in on interviews with potential hires. He is strictly on the business side now... FWIW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) KC gave up a number of high picks, multiple second picks if I remember correctly, to acquire Smith who stabilized the position for them. In this past draft the Chiefs gave up a first round and other picks to acquire the qb that they wanted to invest in for the long haul. So there is nothing ironic about my prior post. What is obvious is that over the past 8 years or so they have had a franchise qb taking the snaps. And still with a credible starter in Smith they aggressively went out and used a first round pick and additional picks to get a qb they believe will be a franchise qb. Compare that two the Bills who have not had a franchise qb since the departure of Kelly more than twenty years ago. They also traded a first for Trent Green, who was very good for them. John, you're extolling the Chiefs' brilliance in devoting two second round picks to acquire Alex Smith, but the truth is that the Bills acquired a QB for free (Tyrod) who has performed just as well (if not better) than Smith has the past two years. Do you doubt that Tyrod also could have led the Chiefs to the playoffs the past two years? The Chiefs made the playoffs the past two years largely because they have a very good defense and because they hit a home run with the selection of Tyreke Hill last year in the fifth round (exactly the kind of high ceiling/low floor pick that McDermott apparently wants to avoid, BTW). The Chiefs' QB strategy is not necessarily any better than the Bills'. The Bills have used two mid-late round picks on QB in the last two drafts. Neither of those guys has been given a chance yet, but the odds that one of them turns out to be really good (I would argue) is every bit as high as the chance that Mahomes does. See above. I'd argue that Taylor hasn't been better, and that Smith has been above average for a long time. But I'm a fan of Taylor and am also a fan of getting a qb any old way you can. Interestingly, for all of the talk about the Chiefs, the Saints haven't had a starting qb that they drafted since 1986, when Dave Wilson (drafted in 1981; only started in 1985 and 1986) was their starter. Brees, Brooks, Blake, Hebert, Walsh, Everett, Tolliver: none were drafted by the Saints. Edited May 3, 2017 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 They also traded a first for Trent Green, who was very good for them. He was finally getting a chance to establish himself when he then had a brutal knee operation. He wasn't physically imposing or have a strong arm but he was accurate in the short and medium range and he could read defenses. He reminds me a lot of Kirk Cousins. His game would easily translate to today's offenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 He was finally getting a chance to establish himself when he then had a brutal knee operation. He wasn't physically imposing or have a strong arm but he was accurate in the short and medium range and he could read defenses. He reminds me a lot of Kirk Cousins. His game would easily translate to today's offenses. See above re the Saints too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Talking with a guy at work who is friends with one of the only remaining people in the Bills FO and a guy who is in line to become higher up once the new regime is hired, said Whaley knew he was getting fired post draft for at least a month beforehand. Claims Whaley was a glorified scout and was not effective at the day to day operations a GM should be doing. I still maintain letting the Pro Personnel department go was a mistake with how many gems they have uncovered over the last 5 years off the waiver wire and low budget FA's, but I guess they wanted to clean it out. Also said that Russ Brandon has absolutely ZERO to do with anything front office related on either team, other than perhaps doing some type of interviews or sitting in on interviews with potential hires. He is strictly on the business side now... FWIW... Excellent post and good information. Your description fits with the perception that he was more of a scout than a GM who has a wider range of responsibilities. I still believe that with a change of responsibilities he could have worked well with the wrestling coach in identifying the type of players that the HC wanted. In this draft Whaley offered the platter and the HC made the selections. I thought it worked out well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Wrong. Sometimes not taking the shot is the right choice or you might hit a friendly. In this case you might select someone, get rid of someone else and it gets worse. Just look at EJ. And here I thought you'd bring up the blind epileptic squirrel as the example of a friendly hit. Also said that Russ Brandon has absolutely ZERO to do with anything front office related on either team, other than perhaps doing some type of interviews or sitting in on interviews with potential hires. He is strictly on the business side now... FWIW... Which has been made abundantly clear for a while now by anyone who's been reporting on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) Excellent post and good information. Your description fits with the perception that he was more of a scout than a GM who has a wider range of responsibilities. I still believe that with a change of responsibilities he could have worked well with the wrestling coach in identifying the type of players that the HC wanted. In this draft Whaley offered the platter and the HC made the selections. I thought it worked out well. He also said Whaley had ZERO to do with hiring the new coach...Pegula basically took his recommendations and then made the decisions they wanted to with or without his approval on it. Really wish I would have asked him about what is going on with Watkins...will next time I see him. Edited May 3, 2017 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 See above re the Saints too. The Bills were too busy looking in the trash can to come up with Kolb, Orton and Brohm etc to come up with someone serviceable. If you factor in the market and draft it is stunning how futile our results have been. How embarrassing can it get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Talking with a guy at work who is friends with one of the only remaining people in the Bills FO and a guy who is in line to become higher up once the new regime is hired, said Whaley knew he was getting fired post draft for at least a month beforehand. Claims Whaley was a glorified scout and was not effective at the day to day operations a GM should be doing. I still maintain letting the Pro Personnel department go was a mistake with how many gems they have uncovered over the last 5 years off the waiver wire and low budget FA's, but I guess they wanted to clean it out. Also said that Russ Brandon has absolutely ZERO to do with anything front office related on either team, other than perhaps doing some type of interviews or sitting in on interviews with potential hires. He is strictly on the business side now... FWIW... Good info - makes a ton of sense. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) The Bills were too busy looking in the trash can to come up with Kolb, Orton and Brohm etc to come up with someone serviceable. If you factor in the market and draft it is stunning how futile our results have been. How embarrassing can it get? John, you're absolutely entitled to complain about the dunderheaded QB moves made (or not made) by the Bills in the past, such as passing on Wilson and Cousins in the middle of the drafted, but those moves have nothing to do with the current regime and in fact, most recently the Bills' FA acquisition of Tryrod Taylor ranks as the best FA quarterback acquisition of the past decade, and it's not even close. And the Bills have drafted two QB's in the past two drafts, both of whom might turn out to be very good. So cheer up! Edited May 3, 2017 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Excellent post and good information. Your description fits with the perception that he was more of a scout than a GM who has a wider range of responsibilities. Making that two GMs in a row that were over their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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