hondo in seattle Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 I think this whole Whaley story is like an iceberg. 10% is above water and visible. 90% is out of sight. The visible part is Doug's 30-34 record, his miss on EJ (was it really his?), and some of his other personnel mistakes. I have no idea what's under the surface but I'm confident there's more to the story than we know.
Bangarang Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 I don't understand why not much has been said about this. Tyrod's best game as a pro was his last game. Could he grown into a good QB at this point? It seems like everybody is looking at the whole body or work, and not how he was at the end of the season. Should people be cherry picking one game instead of evaluating him based on his entire body of work? What if people only chose to look at his worst game? Would that be a fair evaluation? There are plenty of mediocre to bad QBs who occasionally have really good games but majority of the time are still going to be the same mediocre or bad QB. It happens literally every year. Look at guys like Fitz, Keenum, Hoyer etc.
NoSaint Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Should people be cherry picking one game instead of evaluating him based on his entire body of work? What if people only chose to look at his worst game? Would that be a fair evaluation? There are plenty of mediocre to bad QBs who occasionally have really good games but majority of the time are still going to be the same mediocre or bad QB. It happens literally every year. Look at guys like Fitz, Keenum, Hoyer etc. yea, i think its a stretch to think the light suddenly came on in the week of his last start. its not impossible that he comes out looking better this year but i dont think the narrative would be that suddenly in december he put it all together.
dave mcbride Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 yea, i think its a stretch to think the light suddenly came on in the week of his last start. its not impossible that he comes out looking better this year but i dont think the narrative would be that suddenly in december he put it all together. It is the case that Sammy Watkins started getting healthy near the end of the season. Let's not forget that for much of the season, the WR corps was among the league's very worst.
jeffismagic Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Recency bias. Fans remember the last game they saw. That Miami D had street FA's playing in the back 7.
dave mcbride Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) Should people be cherry picking one game instead of evaluating him based on his entire body of work? What if people only chose to look at his worst game? Would that be a fair evaluation? There are plenty of mediocre to bad QBs who occasionally have really good games but majority of the time are still going to be the same mediocre or bad QB. It happens literally every year. Look at guys like Fitz, Keenum, Hoyer etc. It's not just one game; it's the last three games he played in. In all of them, he had a rating of 100+. He wasn't perfect in all of them, but no one is perfect. The trajectory points upward, but maybe it's just random statistical noise because of weak competition. We'll know for sure once the 2017 season is underway. At the end of the day, his lifetime QBR with Buffalo is 94.2. Edited May 1, 2017 by dave mcbride
jeffismagic Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 It's not just one game; it's the last three games he played in. In all of them, he had a rating of 100+. He wasn't perfect in all of them, but no one is perfect. The trajectory points upward, but maybe it's just random statistical noise because of weak competition. We'll know for sure once the 2017 season is underway. You think Tyrod played well against Pittsburgh?
Alphadawg7 Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Said this in another thread: The most overlooked part of TT's game is his trust/rapport with is WR's. That makes a huge difference in the progression of reads with any QB, but is monumentally more impactful when that QB has dangerous legs and is a true threat to run. 1. Its not even debatable, TT treats Sammy different than any WR on this team. He makes throws to him he rarely tries with other guys and has more patience and trust in regards to Sammy when he is healthy. 2. Taylor had a full green light to kill D's with his legs when he felt he could. Rex and company drooled over what the kid could do with his legs. 3. A dual threat QB is essentially pulling the ball down long before he actually pulls the ball down to run. If he isn't seeing something he likes early in the play, he is also going to be reading the field for an opening to run. What that looks like to fans at home is that he just isn't seeing someone who he appears he should see because he may be looking that direction but he is looking at the area closest to him, not the actual receiver because now he is looking for a running lane. This is why a lot of dual threat QB's tend to be known as not having good field vision...its not so much that, ts that they are looking essentially at 2 different styles of reading the field on most plays once they get out of their first reads. So when a QB like Taylor doesn't have the trust/patience/rapport with his receiving group, it causes him to fail to see opportunities he should see because his progression reads are now including running lanes. Very correctable...doesnt mean it will get better with TT, but there is reason for optimism. 1. OC and gameplan - Under the old regime, he was encouraged to use those legs a lot. This is one of the things I think that held TT back the most, just the fact they encouraged him to run so much. I think if the OC can keep TT looking downfield a smudge longer, it will make a big difference in him seeing more opportunities. 2. Timing/Trust/Rapport with this new group of WR's. Last years group was dismal without Sammy. There is a lot to like going into this year and the biggest hopes is that Sammy can put the foot injury behind him finally. If Sammy is back fully this year, the receiving group looks substantially better than last year and that also will help TT be more patient and take more chances. All that being said, there are no guarantees TT improves, I mean sometimes instinct is just instinct, and if he can't keep is vision downfield longer its going to be hard to take a step forward. But, I do think he will simply because I have seen him do it when Sammy was 100% out there showing me that he is capable of taming down his tendency to look for running lanes too early in his progressions. And if he doesn't improve, we are armed with ammo next year to make a move at QB, assuming that one of your current young guys haven't shown they are the guy either.
eball Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 I think this whole Whaley story is like an iceberg. 10% is above water and visible. 90% is out of sight. The visible part is Doug's 30-34 record, his miss on EJ (was it really his?), and some of his other personnel mistakes. I have no idea what's under the surface but I'm confident there's more to the story than we know. Just grasping at straws here, but what if good 'ol Whales was the source of the leaks at OBD all along?
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Said this in another thread: The most overlooked part of TT's game is his trust/rapport with is WR's. That makes a huge difference in the progression of reads with any QB, but is monumentally more impactful when that QB has dangerous legs and is a true threat to run. 1. Its not even debatable, TT treats Sammy different than any WR on this team. He makes throws to him he rarely tries with other guys and has more patience and trust in regards to Sammy when he is healthy. 2. Taylor had a full green light to kill D's with his legs when he felt he could. Rex and company drooled over what the kid could do with his legs. 3. A dual threat QB is essentially pulling the ball down long before he actually pulls the ball down to run. If he isn't seeing something he likes early in the play, he is also going to be reading the field for an opening to run. What that looks like to fans at home is that he just isn't seeing someone who he appears he should see because he may be looking that direction but he is looking at the area closest to him, not the actual receiver because now he is looking for a running lane. This is why a lot of dual threat QB's tend to be known as not having good field vision...its not so much that, ts that they are looking essentially at 2 different styles of reading the field on most plays once they get out of their first reads. So when a QB like Taylor doesn't have the trust/patience/rapport with his receiving group, it causes him to fail to see opportunities he should see because his progression reads are now including running lanes. Very correctable...doesnt mean it will get better with TT, but there is reason for optimism. 1. OC and gameplan - Under the old regime, he was encouraged to use those legs a lot. This is one of the things I think that held TT back the most, just the fact they encouraged him to run so much. I think if the OC can keep TT looking downfield a smudge longer, it will make a big difference in him seeing more opportunities. 2. Timing/Trust/Rapport with this new group of WR's. Last years group was dismal without Sammy. There is a lot to like going into this year and the biggest hopes is that Sammy can put the foot injury behind him finally. If Sammy is back fully this year, the receiving group looks substantially better than last year and that also will help TT be more patient and take more chances. All that being said, there are no guarantees TT improves, I mean sometimes instinct is just instinct, and if he can't keep is vision downfield longer its going to be hard to take a step forward. But, I do think he will simply because I have seen him do it when Sammy was 100% out there showing me that he is capable of taming down his tendency to look for running lanes too early in his progressions. And if he doesn't improve, we are armed with ammo next year to make a move at QB, assuming that one of your current young guys haven't shown they are the guy either. ....NOT yet convinced with this assessment....processing the field in time allotted is a mental, "gray matter" issue and I have my doubts if it is trainable.....he is 7 years in the league and yes, 3 years as a starter.....but how long does he get to finally grasp the mental part of does his WR/TE corps wear GPS units??.. stay tuned...............
dave mcbride Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) You think Tyrod played well against Pittsburgh? I think he played OK against a good defense (11th in defensive DVOA). He wasn't great, and he wasn't horrible. They basically had no chance to win because the Bills defense was so bad. Let's not forget that. The Steelers ran 73 plays to the Bills 48 and had the ball for nearly 40 minutes. Also, the Bills' pass blocking was wretched that day; their line was eaten alive. I'm not saying he played great, but he hit a bunch of nice longer throws that day and didn't wilt. He played hard to the end. They never really had a chance to come back, but it's not as if Pitt stopped playing D out there. It ended up being a one-score game despite Pitt's total dominance. Edited May 1, 2017 by dave mcbride
vincec Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) Overdorf will be gone when the new GM is in place.Obviously. Edited May 1, 2017 by vincec
Alphadawg7 Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 ....NOT yet convinced with this assessment....processing the field in time allotted is a mental, "gray matter" issue and I have my doubts if it is trainable.....he is 7 years in the league and yes, 3 years as a starter.....but how long does he get to finally grasp the mental part of does his WR/TE corps wear GPS units??.. stay tuned............... Normally I would probably be right there with you...but the 2 biggest factors for my optimism that he can improve this are: 1. Rex gave him the green light and encouraged him to run, its the single biggest thing he was enamored with about Taylor. 2. Trust. I already went over this in detail in the post you responded to, but if a QB doesn't trust the WR or have the right rapport/timing with them, its already an issue. But in a QB who had been green lit to run, that is significantly magnified and it will cause the QB to look for those running lanes earlier than they should. And like I said, a QB looking to run is mentally pulling that ball down long before he physically pulls the ball down because he is surveying the field for running lanes. Its very fast out there, and its difficult to look for both passing and running opportunities simultaneously. And the reason I am focusing on this is because I have already seen Taylor clearly demonstrate more patient, trust, and take more risks when there is a healthy Sammy on the field. He has shown me he is capable of doing it, and I think if the new staff emphasizes it more and we get better receives on the field (I feel a LOT better about this group next year than the last 2 years), then Taylor could really improve in this area. Only time will tell though.
HappyDays Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) Recency bias. Fans remember the last game they saw. That Miami D had street FA's playing in the back 7. So did our receiving corps. And you still have a Chiefs player as your avatar. Edited May 1, 2017 by HappyDays
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 ...not sure who was responsible as it doesn't mean s^*T......I do know the OBD consensus 2013 QB target was....Gnome.....then the gang flew down for interview & workout....consensus on plane ride home was, "um no thanks".....great to see a unified (COUGH) organization on the same page versus pointing fingers...hence, SEVENTEEN YEARS.....
jeffismagic Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 I think he played OK against a good defense (11th in defensive DVOA). He wasn't great, and he wasn't horrible. They basically had no chance to win because the Bills defense was so bad. Let's not forget that. The Steelers ran 73 plays to the Bills 48 and had the ball for nearly 40 minutes. Also, the Bills' pass blocking was wretched that day; their line was eaten alive. I'm not saying he played great, but he hit a bunch of nice longer throws that day and didn't wilt. He played hard to the end. They never really had a chance to come back, but it's not as if Pitt stopped playing D out there. It ended up being a one-score game despite Pitt's total dominance. Off the top of my head I remember Pittsburgh daring us to throw and Tyrod not able to do anything but get one TD where the defense didn't give us the ball near the end zone. Then in garbage time he got some more yards and another score. Another game where the stats lie.
Scott7975 Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Yes, Bills needed to get back in the game sooner. The problem was hiring Rex and soon after all our top draft picks in 2015 and 2016 were defensive guys to fit Rex's system when we already had a loaded 4-3 defense. The Ragland trade screamed head coach over Whaley and the lost pick could have been Dak Prescott. Let me guess, you are one of those everything good all Whaley. Everything bad all coaches/Brandon/Pegula. Whaley is gone and it's a good thing because he was terrible. Get over it.
jeffismagic Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Let me guess, you are one of those everything good all Whaley. Everything bad all coaches/Brandon/Pegula. Whaley is gone and it's a good thing because he was terrible. Get over it. Not even close. Carry On.
dave mcbride Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Off the top of my head I remember Pittsburgh daring us to throw and Tyrod not able to do anything but get one TD where the defense didn't give us the ball near the end zone. Then in garbage time he got some more yards and another score. Another game where the stats lie. It's like you're not accounting for the fact that the Steelers were very good last season. They were a far better team - both in terms of overall talent and especially in the realm of coaching. Haley made a fool out of the Ryans that day despite the bad picks that Roethlisberger ill-advisedly threw. The Steelers dominated time of possession from their very first drive even though they didn't score.
jeffismagic Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 It's like you're not accounting for the fact that the Steelers were very good last season. They were a far better team - both in terms of overall talent and especially in the realm of coaching. Haley made a fool out of the Ryans that day despite the bad picks that Roethlisberger ill-advisedly threw. The Steelers dominated time of possession from their very first drive even though they didn't score. Defense was bad. As was Tyrod and the offense. Both can be true.
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