Billzgobowlin Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 I'd ask "what is your evidence" but from the past, I know: "because you believe it" What Whaley has said in the past is "It was a Bills pick" so he owns it - which is the company man speak. There is no direct evidence but it was known he was taking over that offseason similar to Whaley having nothing to do with the picks this year. Also his ideal mold of QB is the athletic style as he has shown with Taylor and Cardale as well as Thad Lewis. Look at the QB room and that should show you all you need to know about style of QB, none could throw but all could run.
GunnerBill Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 There is no direct evidence but it was known he was taking over that offseason similar to Whaley having nothing to do with the picks this year. Also his ideal mold of QB is the athletic style as he has shown with Taylor and Cardale as well as Thad Lewis. Look at the QB room and that should show you all you need to know about style of QB, none could throw but all could run. Cardale is a thrower not a runner as was EJ. They have something else in common the classic big frame and big arm combo rather than anticipatory throwers with good accuracy but to label them runners is lazy. Hell Cardale lost his job at Ohio State for not being enough of a runner.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 There is no direct evidence but it was known he was taking over that offseason similar to Whaley having nothing to do with the picks this year. Also his ideal mold of QB is the athletic style as he has shown with Taylor and Cardale as well as Thad Lewis. Look at the QB room and that should show you all you need to know about style of QB, none could throw but all could run. In 2-3 years if this year's class doesn't pan out as expected - for example, if 2nd and 3rd round draft choice CB outperform our 1st round guy - you'll be back here blaming this year's draft on Whaley, I just know it. Cardale and EJ are stylistically no way like Taylor and Lewis. Nix had made it super-clear he intended to take a QB in the 2013 draft no matter what. Bottom line, who had what input is known to Nix and Whaley and a handful of others but we aren't among them. It's all speculation. Was it 100% Nix and 0% Whaley, no. Was it 100% Whaley and 0% Nix, improbable. There's also the Brandon wild card to factor in there.
ddaryl Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Pegula's have failed to do anything right in 2 franchises to date
SDS Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 In 2-3 years if this year's class doesn't pan out as expected - for example, if 2nd and 3rd round draft choice CB outperform our 1st round guy - you'll be back here blaming this year's draft on Whaley, I just know it. Cardale and EJ are stylistically no way like Taylor and Lewis. Nix had made it super-clear he intended to take a QB in the 2013 draft no matter what. Bottom line, who had what input is known to Nix and Whaley and a handful of others but we aren't among them. It's all speculation. Was it 100% Nix and 0% Whaley, no. Was it 100% Whaley and 0% Nix, improbable. There's also the Brandon wild card to factor in there. Sal has said explicitly (again today) that Whaley set up the board, had EJ as his top QB and Buddy made the pick.
Wayne Arnold Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Pegula's have failed to do anything right in 2 franchises to date They've done quite a few things right with the Bills (I don't follow the Sabres very closely)... 1. Refused to give in to Marrone's demands 2. Fired Rex as soon as they knew it wasn't working, rather than let it drag out 3. Hired Sean McDermott 4. Fired Whaley (better late than never) I have faith that they will hire a very good GM and this franchise will be in good hands with he and McDermott moving forward. I haven't felt this good as a Bills fan since the 1990's.
jeffismagic Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Sal has said explicitly (again today) that Whaley set up the board, had EJ as his top QB and Buddy made the pick. I wish people would stop putting EJ on Whaley as a crime that deserves the death penalty. Even if it was Whaley all the way which is not clear. The 2013 draft was terrible for QB's and everything else. If the Bills had not gone QB we very likely would have drafted a bust anyway. Good organizations move on. Ozzie Newsome drafted his EJ in Kyle Boller. A few years later they drafted Flacco and won a Superbowl. Bills could have got back to it and drafted a QB high but didn't do it.
GunnerBill Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) Sal has said explicitly (again today) that Whaley set up the board, had EJ as his top QB and Buddy made the pick. I don't know why this is so hard for people. Seems very simple - draft strategy that year was Buddy the evaluation was Doug. Decsion to reach on a QB was Buddy but EJ was Doug's guy. Edited May 1, 2017 by GunnerBill
JohnC Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 The Bills have lacked strategic vision for a long time as evidenced by their lack of success on the field. I have no idea if McD is the visionary or the strategic planner that this organization so desperately needs, but a shake down is way overdue. As things wound down with Ralph, it became impossible to do a real course correction because nobody they could hire was willing to pour the level of energy into something with ownership uncertainty looming. And, I suspect, they were far more interested in making the books look as bright green as possible for Mrs. Wilson to cash out with the biggest windfall possible. To the HC running the show, this isn't unheard of obviously. Pete Carroll and Bill Belichick run their teams and have had great success in doing so. For Belichick, reinventing the team on-the-fly has been accomplished in all phases, with the exception of QB. He is able to adapt and change to trends and the parts supply. It's a dynamic plan, but one of its innovations is that the coach isn't married to particular parts on his roster or to any particular system. Few coaches have been as adaptable. We will see what McD can do, but at this point he doesn't strike me as a coach who's content to just try and work with the holdovers and hangers-on who haven't demonstrated any sustained success for a generation of fans. Excelslent post; incisive post. With respect to the highlighted area I agree with you that there is going to be a housecleaning. It may not be in one dramatic action but I see it happening in steady increments. Dareus is the type of player that the wrestling coach is not going to be fond of. Players who possess talent without passion and commitment are not wanted in his locker room. McDermott is not the type of person who would have tolerated Mario Williams. Where I am concerned is that I don't like this new HC having almost unlimited authority in the football operation. Yes, there are coaches such as Belichick, Reid and Carroll who have that type of unfettered authority but they earned that role. What I see happening is the new HC selecting front office staff who are too closely associated with him and his thinking. In my view being challenged and presented with a wider array of options is a more creative and enlightened way to running a front office. My biggest disappointment is that I felt this organization learned nothing from its generation of failure. The Bills were in a position to select top tier qb prospects in Mahomes and Watson. Again, the decision was made to pass on the qb and use its lower first round pick on a DB. That's the Jauron/Levy approach to roster building. That troubles me very much.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 I'm sorry if this was already posted, and that it's Rodak, but the point is made. Pegulas need to stick with their choices this go-around if they want to remain reputable. Mike Rodak ESPN Staff Writer I began covering the Bills in 2013. Since then, they've had two owners, three head coaches, four offensive coordinators, four defensive coordinators and 55 assistant coaches. Now they'll have their second general manager and an entirely new scouting staff.
GunnerBill Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 I'm sorry if this was already posted, and that it's Rodak, but the point is made. Pegulas need to stick with their choices this go-around if they want to remain reputable. Absolutely correct. I sense they are going to give McDermott a minimum if 4 years to get this thing pointed right.
JohnC Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 I wish people would stop putting EJ on Whaley as a crime that deserves the death penalty. Even if it was Whaley all the way which is not clear. The 2013 draft was terrible for QB's and everything else. If the Bills had not gone QB we very likely would have drafted a bust anyway. Good organizations move on. Ozzie Newsome drafted his EJ in Kyle Boller. A few years later they drafted Flacco and won a Superbowl. Bills could have got back to it and drafted a QB high but didn't do it. The problem with your position is that after the EJ fiasco there was little follow-up action to address the qb void. The problem was not swinging and missing--- the problem was not swinging again and again until he got the hit. As you stated Newsome moved back into the first round to select Flacco while Whaley was passive. That resulted in his downfall more than anything else.
jeffismagic Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 The problem with your position is that after the EJ fiasco there was little follow-up action to address the qb void. The problem was not swinging and missing--- the problem was not swinging again and again until he got the hit. As you stated Newsome moved back into the first round to select Flacco while Whaley was passive. That resulted in his downfall more than anything else. Yes, Bills needed to get back in the game sooner. The problem was hiring Rex and soon after all our top draft picks in 2015 and 2016 were defensive guys to fit Rex's system when we already had a loaded 4-3 defense. The Ragland trade screamed head coach over Whaley and the lost pick could have been Dak Prescott.
Coach Tuesday Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Excelslent post; incisive post. With respect to the highlighted area I agree with you that there is going to be a housecleaning. It may not be in one dramatic action but I see it happening in steady increments. Dareus is the type of player that the wrestling coach is not going to be fond of. Players who possess talent without passion and commitment are not wanted in his locker room. McDermott is not the type of person who would have tolerated Mario Williams. Where I am concerned is that I don't like this new HC having almost unlimited authority in the football operation. Yes, there are coaches such as Belichick, Reid and Carroll who have that type of unfettered authority but they earned that role. What I see happening is the new HC selecting front office staff who are too closely associated with him and his thinking. In my view being challenged and presented with a wider array of options is a more creative and enlightened way to running a front office. My biggest disappointment is that I felt this organization learned nothing from its generation of failure. The Bills were in a position to select top tier qb prospects in Mahomes and Watson. Again, the decision was made to pass on the qb and use its lower first round pick on a DB. That's the Jauron/Levy approach to roster building. That troubles me very much. I'm with you JC. Drafting "character" players to clean up the atmosphere sounds very Levy/Jauron-esque. Who is going to be the Chris Kelsay on this roster who gets wildly overpaid because he's "one of the good guys"?
Thurman#1 Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Well, this makes the organization look even more like a complete cluster f*ck. I feel bad for Whaley. He has had 3 coaches to deal with in 4 years. Three scheme changes on both sides of the ball. He has still managed to assemble more talent on this team than we have seen in a decade. The coaching staffs failed him, mainly Rex failed him. Now he is getting the axe right after a highly rated draft by all who rate such things? Amazing. Only in Buffalo. You couldn't make this sh*t up if you tried. Whaley is responsible for at least the first two of those three coaches. If in the meetings, he'd said, "Look, I can't work with Rex. He's personable, a great guy, but we need someone to work with the offense, not change up the excellent defense," the Pegulas would have had to listen to him or fire him and that way of being fired would have ended with him being extremely well-respected throughout the league. Same with Marrone. Instead he went along. So yeah, his coaches screwed him. But they were his coaches. He was the GM.
chris heff Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 And now that Whaley is gone BN turns their vitriol to the Pegulas. http://buffalonews.com/2017/04/30/bucky-gleason-buying-bills-future-tough-considering-bungled-past/
HappyDays Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Does it even matter if Whaley made the final call on EJ? Either way he went out of his way to stand by him. Trading a future 1st rounder for a WR alone should be enough evidence of that. You don't trade a future 1st for ANY position unless you're getting a QB or you already have a QB in place. He also didn't draft any new QBs until last year and his choice was a major project in Cardale Jones. How can anyone defend Whaley's QB record?
Thurman#1 Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 I'd ask "what is your evidence" but from the past, I know: "because you believe it" What Whaley has said in the past is "It was a Bills pick" so he owns it - which is the company man speak. Nix said he put Whaley in charge of evaluating the QBs that year. So that's one thing. But it's more than that. He's had dozens of chances to back away from that pick, dozens. All he had to say was something like, "Well, you know I wasn't in position to pull the trigger back then. But I've always had great respect for both Buddy Nix and EJ Manuel." Boom, it's obvious he wasn't fully on board. He's never done that. He wanted Manuel. But there were a lot more bad decisions, particularly in the selection of coaches and the weak drafts.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Sal has said explicitly (again today) that Whaley set up the board, had EJ as his top QB and Buddy made the pick. SDS, all respect, just begs the question "what is Sal's source? how does Sal know that?" Could also be quite true that Whaley had EJ as his top QB (I mean, look at the rest of the class) but had other players graded that high or higher, and Nix said "no, we'll go with QB here" (pick for need)
Thurman#1 Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 And now that Whaley is gone BN turns their vitriol to the Pegulas. http://buffalonews.com/2017/04/30/bucky-gleason-buying-bills-future-tough-considering-bungled-past/ Yeah, who could imagine anyone saying the Pegulas haven't done well? Shining exemplars of owners who win, it's obvious to anyone.
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